Sheila

Christian fiction can be awesome. It can be inspirational. It can help us grow with Jesus. But what does it do to our theology of marriage? And can it be something which actually reinforces some of the bad stuff that we’ve been hearing from other books? 

That’s what we’re gonna be talking about today in our look at ‘And the Shofar Blew’ by Francine Rivers.

Hi, I’m Sheila Gregoire from BareMarriage.com, where we like to talk about healthy, evidence based biblical advice for your sex life and your marriage. And while we normally look at self-help books, what I decided to do last week was to start a discussion on Christian fiction, looking specifically at a book that I read about 20 years ago that just rubbed me totally the wrong way, even though I liked other books by this author, because I felt that the overall message that it was giving about marriage and even about faith could actually end up hurting people when they read it, because that wasn’t the message that we should be taking away. So I grabbed a bunch of women, a bunch of my friends to talk about this, and I would like to invite you to that conversation.

Well, everybody, we are here to do something we have never done before, which is look at a fiction book. And I have three good friends with me to do this.

I have Joanna Sawatsky, my coauthor for Great Sex Rescue. She Deserves Better, our stats

person for everything we do. She’s just awesome. And she writes all our peer, peer reviewed papers. We have several in submission right now. Yay!

And if you want to support that, of course you can give to the Good Fruit Faith initiative of the Bosco Foundation. And the link is in the podcast notes, 

We have Doctor Merry Lin, who is the author of re Becoming an awesome book. If you just want to understand all, like the psychology terms, people talk about, like trauma and attachment and all of that, and then gives you super practical exercises to bring them home.

Love that book. We talked about it in the podcast. She is a clinical psychologist, does a ton of great work. 

And then my good friend Sarah McDugal. Hello, Sarah. Sarah is crocheting. Sarah’s getting into this, so we’re going to talk fiction. She’s gonna crochet. Sarah 

Sarah

You know what, This is so that I have something to keep my hands busy so that I can control how much I talk, because I have a lot of thoughts and this will help me to listen to everyone else. Yeah, seriously. 

Sheila

And Sarah does a great work, with betrayal trauma, with people who are leaving abusive marriages in her work Wilderness to Wild. And we will put links to those, groups, too. Okay, everybody. So we read And The Shofar Blew. 

Sarah

Yes, yes. 

Sheila

I don’t you know, what I’d like to do first is can we just summarize the plot because I want I want people to be able to follow our conversation, even if they haven’t read the book, because this conversation isn’t really about, like, you have to understand everything in the book as much as it is, we want to talk about the impact of Christian fiction. 

So I’m going to try, anyone can jump in if they want, but it focuses around a couple named Eunice and Paul, who are a very young couple. 

They get started at a very small church, which Paul then grows to become a megachurch and sort of over time, kind of just gets darker and darker and loses his faith and isn’t really following Jesus, and his wife is long suffering and puts up with this.

And they have a son named Tim, which becomes important later.

Paul is the son of another megachurch pastor, and so his father, David and his mother, Lois feature in in in the story. And basically, David had multiple affairs and Lois covered it up. 

And then Eunice and Paul recreate the Lois and David dynamic in their marriage.

And then we have, like, this bastion of great faith, this older couple, Abby and Samuel, who call Paul to the church. And Samuel is kind of his mentor, but also antagonist because Samuel wants Paul to stay with Jesus.

We have a man named Stephen who, was an alcoholic but had a moment with Jesus. And throughout the book, he is growing closer and closer to Jesus. 

And then we have a woman named Sheila who is the worst person in the world. And who seduces the the pastor and who’s just, an evil Jezebel floozy. Is that, is that about right?

Merry

That’s a pretty good summary. 

Sarah

That is how she is described. Yes, yes, yes.

Merry

And not so many words and how they describe how she dresses and her manipulation. yes

Sheila

Yes, yes, yes. Okay, Oh I don’t, does anyone have any broad thoughts they want to share before we jump in? Or should we just jump in? 

Merry

I would say, there were a lot of. So I used to read, Francine Rivers books back in the 80s and 90s. I was a huge fan. And I still love her writing for many reasons, but this book was difficult to read because it brought up a lot of, triggers around how church ought not to be and how Christianity ought not to be.

And I came from that world. So while I was reading it from a sort of a, let’s be critical so we can talk about it, it was actually like stirring up some feelings in me. I was getting pretty like.

You know, I was ready to. wring some necks in the character. So yes, that was my personal response to it.

Sheila

Everyone, has everyone else read other Francine Rivers. I mean, I was, I was a huge fan of Mark Of The Lion. 

Sarah

I read a ton.

Sheila

Yeah, I didn’t like all of hers. I mean, we talked about Redeeming Love before and how there’s some problems with consent in that book and the movie adaptation and different things. But yeah, you haven’t read any. Joanna? 

Joanna

No, I grew up on Lori Wick, was my favourite Christian romance author as a teenager. And I really enjoyed Dee Henderson, who kind of did more like action slash romance.

Merry

Yes I liked her too yeah

Joanna

Yes, she was great.

But no, I had never read Francine Rivers. I’m not sure why not. But I never, never had read her. 

Merry

It’s like your mother’s fiction series, that’s why 

Sarah

So for me, I grew up not allowed to read fiction. So I made up for it. Late teens, early college. Read all of the Mark of the Lion stuff. A whole bunch of them. I think I read most of Francine Rivers. She felt edgier than Janette Oke. Because Janette Oke was like a hallmark movie on repeat. Right. Just like they were all the same plot now. And so I liked that Francine Rivers dug deeper into stuff. But, you know, I was just, I meant to look at this before, but this came out in 2003.

Yeah. Which was the year I got married. And for me, I read it as a brand new, pastor’s wife before I lived Eunice and Paul’s story. Right. So, Merry, like you were saying, it brought up a lot of stuff for you. I lived her, I lived this book, in in many, many ways, being a pastor’s wife, dealing with varying layers of infidelity and addiction and abuse and control. So I have to read it carefully because it’s very personal. 

And I have so many thoughts like, but, you know, you said you said, Sheila, like broad strokes. Besides the personal connection to it, I think it’s really important to start out as we discuss fiction, just reminding that fiction and nonfiction, anyone who’s listening, you know, someone can write a fiction book and describe really terrible things happening and have a motivation for it to either be a cautionary tale that you learn from, how not to do all the things, or for it to be this is the way things should be done, like there is this bad side of it. 

Sarah

But then here’s the good people, and this is what they did, and this is how you should handle it, or where it is simply a snapshot of the way things are like fiction can be. Any of those three. And so keeping that in mind, as we kind of take it apart and the impact of how we read Christian fiction, I think it shifts the conversation a lot from nonfiction, Prescriptive. 

Sheila

Exactly.

Sarah

Material. And we should probably establish that expectation for everyone listening. 

Sheila

Yeah, exactly. Because nonfiction is giving you advice on how you should live. And so you can look at specific sentences and you can analyze them. And is this good. fiction isn’t doing that. And and so yeah, like fiction doesn’t give advice. And so what we need to do instead, I think that 

Sarah

But it Does. 

Sheila

Fiction. Yeah. But it doesn’t give specific advice. But it does end up giving advice in the sense of what is this book portraying as, as ideal? Like, what is this book calling us to and what is this book saying? This is just not a good way to live out, right? Like what? What is the message that you want to take at the end of this book?

00:09:50:15 – 00:11:09:12

Sheila

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You will love it just as much as I did.

Sheila

Yeah, I do want to jump in. Joanna, I can see.

Joanna

I can, you can see. Yeah. So I decided before I read this book, I decided that I was going to read a book that I’ve been meaning to read forever, which is The Tenant of Wildfell Hall by Anne Bronte. And so I read that that’s. 

Sheila

Bronte for everyone who doesn’t know. That’s Bronte sisters. So think like a long, long time ago. 

Joanna

Long, long they’re Victorian. This came out in 1847. 

Sarah

Okay.

Joanna

And boy howdy Anne was spicy. She nailed her portrayal of like, her, but description of betrayal trauma and, addiction and abuse blew Francine Rivers out of the water. For how much? I believe that people would actually act like this. And it was 1847.

Sarah

Beautiful to reread that. It’s so good. 

Joanna

Oh, like you would love it, Sarah. And it’s deeply Christian. Like, not really. 

Sarah

Running to Amazon right now. Carry on.

Sheila

So that is like The Tenant of Wildfell Hall. 

Joanna

Wildfell Hall Like amazing. It’s a book about men learning emotional maturity and women standing up to bad dudes and making it work.

So incredible. So but I read it and I was like oh this is not only describing the tragedy of this is how the world was for women in the 1840s, that if you got married, you had no options. You were completely stuck. And this woman fighting to get herself unstuck and doing it.

Or you’re just like. Yes, girl, go.

So you and I know that I have had so many theological moments where I’m like, oh, this is how I think about theology. And it’s so edgy and new. And then I realize that it’s all in The Chronicles of Narnia. Every single time I do this, it’s just in Narnia, because I was so profoundly shaped by that fiction.

And similarly, I think that all of my dating and marriage advice is in Jane Austen stuff like girl was she was just laying down facts after facts about how do you find a good marriage? What does it mean to, what happens if you don’t make a good choice? Right? Like, she was thinking about all of that stuff and describing it beautifully.

And so fiction can be a powerful way for us to imagine what it’s like to be another person, to practice that theory of the mind, and to then be able to apply it to our own lives. So what bugs me about this book was that I felt like that the this is a fancy English word. It’s called verisimilitude, which just means how psychologically real do these people feel?

And a lot of the time, I felt like there was a lack of psychological realness to the characters, like one of the characters on her deathbed, she’s literally dying. She dies that morning, and the last thing she talks about is that there’s a ground breaking for the new church building 

That’s the last. And she dies like an hour later. It’s like, you’re like no, that’s not what she’d be talking about. Her daughter or her husband. Not like it actually reads, is really petty. And we’re supposed to read it and be like, oh, how? Right?

It’s like, no, a. it’s so unrealistic, and b. it’s oh, fake.

Like, no. There’s just a consistent lack of thinking through how do people actually act like the Sheila character? Just no one is like that. 

Sarah

So like, some of them are caricatures. Yeah. Yeah. 

Joanna

Would like that. She wouldn’t be wouldn’t be popular.

Sheila

Yeah. And we’ll get to that one in a second. We’ll get to that one in a second. Okay. So great. I also want to point out what you said, Joanna, about how, you know, a lot of your theology is from Narnia, which was great, like awesome series. Right. But this is the problem is that a book can be not good and have not good theology, but still give us our theology 

And that’s really that’s what I really want to talk about, is like, it’s not only good books that give us their theology, bad books do too. Yeah. And that’s, that’s my concern for this one. 

Merry

There’s lots of world view that’s being presented that is so infused in the storyline that sometimes it’s so subtle how it influences the way you think about the way life should be in the way faith should be. And certainly back in the day when I was reading it, it was so clear, this is the way you’re supposed to live your life. 

Now, with maturity and deconstruction and understanding my faith, I look back and think, wow, I can’t believe. And that’s part of the, triggers for me is I can’t believe I actually drank the Kool-Aid on this. That was the challenge for me. And then I’m so glad that clarity has come as I’ve matured and moved out of that box of the way things should be, and I can see it objectively.

Wow. And so books like this have had a powerful influence, I think many, many readers over the years, in some good ways, but in a lot of not so good ways, because it just confirms the, the bad theology that we were raised in. 

Sarah

Yeah. I just double down on how this is supposed to look in real life. Yeah. It’s one thing if you hear it from a preacher, it’s another thing if it’s painted in a real life accessible story and this is how it’s supposed to play out, because I know rereading it, I haven’t read this in over 20 years.

But rereading it, I realized that so much of what I had latched on to that regardless of what a pastor or a ministry leader may be doing in their secret private life, my role as a wife is to cover, to smile, to forgive, to say nothing to anyone. I lived that out for years and I absolutely believe that reading this, rereading it this last week, I can see it’s, this book is a huge part of where that sense of rushing obligation. to secrecy in the name of righteousness.

All

Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Sheila

Okay. So let’s, let’s just talk about that for, hold on for a second. 

So, so I have some big picture questions on themes from this book. And the biggest one I think is this one is, “What is the vision of redemption that we have from this book?” And if I were to sum it up, I would say that if we wait long enough, God is going to work a miracle.

Merry

Yeah, I mean, that’s what I was raised. Just pray. Like the sheer number of times where there’s devastating circumstances happening and they’re being told the character is being told to pray and somehow you can. It’s sort of like reinforces this passivity, that faith is just waiting on the Lord. And you don’t have to do anything. You don’t have to do the hard work of examining your soul, changing your behavior, confronting other people, heading into difficult, dark situations.

You just have to pray and keep a smile on your face like you said, Sarah. Like you have to just be that wife as if everything’s okay. And that was very, so not true. Yeah about life. 

Sarah

Yes, I felt like I think another theme that I see overarching through it, well two actually and one is that real change can happen instantaneously without any work being done. Yes. So if someone is just convincing enough, then it’s good now and you should drop all your guard and go back. And that’s really the ending note of the book.

Not to jump to the to the end, but the second is that all throughout there were women who were profoundly intuitive, connected to the Holy Spirit. Wise. And their contributions were silenced, shut down, dismissed, swept away because they were women. And their internal dialog, which is one of the literary factors that she used, is one of the tools that she uses in a lot of italicized sections of the different internal self-talk and the female’s internal dialog is a nonstop narrative of just cognitive dissonance and self-doubt.

All

Yep. Yeah.

Sheila

And she doesn’t. And she doesn’t point this out as wrong, actually. And we’ll get to that whole thing in a minute

Sarah

That’s the thing, and it’s not that it doesn’t happen. It’s that it is never said. And they should have been able to listen to their instincts and follow their intuition.

Sheila

Yeah, I want I want to put a pin in that because I want to come back to how she handles prayer and what we’re supposed to pray about in a second. So put a pin in that. But I want to read this is a bit of a longer passage, but I want to pick up what Sarah said about how change happens instantaneously. 

This this is comes at the very end of the book. Everything is come crashing down for Paul. His wife has discovered his affair. And I think this is like within 24 hours of the wife discovering the effect. Maybe it’s 36, I don’t know, but it’s like super, super soon. Okay. 

Sarah

It’s less than a week. 

Sheila

Yeah, yeah, like it’s over. Like it’s it’s I think I think it’s less than two days. Like, it’s, it’s there’s a very condensed time period here. Okay. And I’m just going to read these paragraphs.

So this is Eunice thinking and talking to herself.

Paul Hudson wasn’t her knight in shining armor. He hadn’t been for a long, long time. 

No, beloved, he’s just a man fooled by a common enemy. The same enemy who’s trying to fool you now into believing that Jesus hasn’t the power to restore the Stolen Years. She could say what he needed to hear and see where that would take him. I forgive you, Paul. In obedience to you, Lord. I forgive him as I’ve forgiven him over the years.

So I forgive him again now because of you, only because of you, and only in your power can I forgive. She let out her breath slowly, her muscles relaxing. Eunice put her hands around the warm cup and tried to capture her rebellious thoughts and focus them on Jesus. What would Jesus have her do? Oh God, I know she didn’t even have to ask that question.

Tears slipped down her cheeks. She too was a sinner, saved by grace and by his grace, and through it she was to extend grace to others. For wasn’t that what grace was? All about? Extending love to someone who trashed what you held so dear? If Jesus had done that for the unrepentant, couldn’t she bring herself to do likewise?

For a man with a broken and contrite heart?

Merry

I was so angry reading that. So angry because she, if this is God talking to her, I think it’s more the enemy talking to her because there is so much shame. There was so much shoulding. This is the way you ought to respond. And she wasn’t allowed to have her own normal grief, anger, betrayal feelings.  It was labeled as, rebellious.

Sarah

Rebellious thoughts. It’s that.

Merry

That what? It’s rebellious emotions is rebellious to have normal emotions of betrayal and hurt and all of that. And so it just it is this pattern that I see all the time where a bad thing happens and a woman steps in and takes on the responsibility of somehow I did something wrong or said something wrong, or however it might be. 

On the one side, it does give us a sense of control, like somehow we can do something about it. But the other hand, I think we’re socialized as females who were raised in a Christian world, that somehow we are responsible for a lot of bad behavior that goes around. And so that part really made me so angry. It’s like it’s ungodly to feel anger or hurt. 

Sheila

Yeah. And she says, is she too was a sinner saved by grace? It reminds me, Joanna, and the Elizabeth Elliot thing. So Elizabeth Elliott in Passion for Purity, talks about how, you know, she and she and, Jim had not been dating, but they had been trying to figure out if they were going to date or marry or whatever. And he kept saying no, but he, he would regret that they had that they had. Like. Touched arms or.

Joanna

Okay. So I would just like to, to, to fill this in a little bit. Essentially whenever they were together, he would be super cuddly and touchy feely and like really into it and into her and very much more demonstrable than she wanted to be because poor thing, she was just very closed off. And then she would leave and he would regret it, and then he would lash out at times excoriating her in letters. 

Sheila

Yeah. For letting him for letting him touch her and go too far. 

Joanna

For for oh, my mother not hate it. Hated you. Essentially it’s what he said to her at one point.

Sheila

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that and the going too far was like he put his head in her lap once while they were sitting on a bench. It was not like they were making out, like they never kissed.

Joanna

Also, however, we do need to note for the record, just off topic, but they did definitely make out a lot before they got married. That is canon. So, all the stuff of Passion in Purity is a lie. Yeah, just needed to say that for the record.

Sheila

But anyway, so then he said, we’re not going to marry like, I just, I don’t think I want to marry anyone. And then, she hears back that he’s been kissing all of these girls at Wheaton. And she’s trying to process this because he had been he had been saying, oh, my gosh, I feel so guilty for what we did when they didn’t do anything 

Sheila

And now he’s doing way more with these girls. And and her reaction is, well, haven’t I sinned too, haven’t I disappointed him many times. And it’s like, no, you didn’t like he betrayed you. And this is such a common theme. It’s similar. 

Sarah

Gosh. Yeah.

Joanna

Well, and then she goes on to write Let Me Be a Woman after the death of her second husband, her second husband, Addison Leach. We don’t know what the details of this are, but we know that he was a college professor who did things that wouldn’t be considered okay, any more with students. Yeah, and she writes a book all about how you marry a sinner.

Joanna

And so this just is a theme, and this is our heritage as Christian women. These are the books that we were raised on, that our mothers were raised on. This stuff is just in the water that we’re supposed to sin level and to say, well, I’m not perfect, so therefore I can’t ask for anything. 

Sarah

Yeah, I think it’s really important to distinguish between like, I would have been fine if Francine Rivers had illustrated Eunice’s self-doubt and cognitive dissonance, but then somehow brought it around to recognize that when a partner is living in this kind of cognitive dissonance, this emotional, internal spiritual chaos, it is typically because they are in a situation where the words and the actions are not matching with the other person, and this is the result of abuse.

This is a betrayal. This is a trauma. And that she should have been encouraged to seek safety instead of like. I don’t think there’s a problem with stating that it happens because it happens. Women do talk to themselves this way. The problem is leaving that as the norm, the expected baseline, and then saying that she should, and then the sin leveling that follows it.

Because one thing I don’t know if you guys noticed, but at the very end in like the last five pages, I could look it up. But she’s praying for Tim, their son and his future and she says, Lord, bring him a girl who will fight for their marriage. And I was just like, because there was a really good section where her mother in law came to terms with how she had actually enabled and empowered and covered for sin by keeping things secret.

And she admits it. It was beautiful where she says, even to her son, to Paul, your dad was not the saint that I led you to believe he was. I was wrong for covering for his sin. I was wrong for keeping it secret. I was wrong like that. That is a dream speech from a mother in law. And it was so powerful.

But then at the end, Eunice is like, Lord, bring my son a wife who will fight for their marriage.

Merry

But that’s the thing. That’s again. 

It’s a woman’s responsibility for the emotional health of our marriage. It is up to us to notice that things need to change. It’s to do whatever it is, carry the load of it. The thing that I found interesting is that Eunice started off as a young wife with fire in her belly and an ability to speak up, and at that time. 

Sarah

Music performance. 

Merry

Yes. Like she just had so much and she had this confidence about what she had to say and she to, like, get to my role to speak truth to you. Who else is going to do it? But there was just throughout their marriage, so much mansplaining, so much gaslighting, that by the time she got to the end of it, she’s the one who say, well, I’m a sinner and and I’m the one who, oh gosh, I have to forgive.

I’m having such bad emotions and I what really, really bothered me as somebody who works with people working through trauma is how often she just tried to pray away her pain, that somehow Jesus would take it away from her, and that then she would do the right thing and in quotes, the right thing, and she wouldn’t be so resentful, sinful, and all those kinds of things.

And so there’s no space for the reality of what the human emotions are like and how long it takes to heal and to process and to restore our relationship like that is just so completely unrealistic. And so it makes those who read it who may have gone through the similar situation. And you can speak to this, Sarah, you feel guilty because I didn’t forgive my husband that quickly or my wife that quickly.

I didn’t restore things that quickly. In fact, I never went back. I left the guy. And so then this is like, no, I should have been forgiving. I should have restored. And that ultimately is my responsibility. Because that’s what Tim needs, is a wife who’s responsible for their marriage too.

Sarah

Yeah, I when she’s there’s a scene where she’s in the graveyard weeping at her parents graves, and the cemetery caretaker comes over. I think that’s who it is. And. Oh, gosh. I think it’s a shame.

All

We think it’s maybe the angel, Jesus.

Sheila

Was supposed to be an angel.

Sarah

I thought it was Jesus.

Merry

I thought I was a very preachy angel.  Let me just tell you.

Sarah

I’m so sad for the caretaker, I guess. 

Joanna

Yeah. 

Sarah

Oh, yeah. 

Sheila

Caretaker. But. But you got the sense that it was actually Jesus, that He disappeared.

Joanna

Guys, guys, it’s not an angel, it’s Jesus. And here’s why. Because it says some of the same things that Jesus says to Mary after the resurrection.

Sarah

Okay.

Joanna

Sounds a lot like Jesus.

Sarah

So she’s hallucinating 

Joanna

He’s the gardener. Get it? The gardener. Okay. 

Merry

Oh, there’s layers, layers, layers. 

Joanna

Okay sorry. Just needed to clarify it.

Sarah

But my point was, I was. Yeah. No, I, I missed that, so thank you. Joanna.

He’s talking. She’s thinking back to what a good and gentle and honest man her father was. And she had hoped to marry a pastor like her father. And? He says, well, what would your father tell you to do.

Sheila

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Sarah

And that’s really the point where it like triples down on, my daddy was a good man and my daddy would tell me to forgive him anyway.

Sarah

And there’s zero separation between I could forgive after I’m safe and stable and strong which the season of strength you have to get to safe first and then stable and then in strength you can discuss whether or not you’re ready to forgive someone. But there was zero differentiation between when, where, and how to forgive and whether or not forgiveness means reconciliation and trusting. 

Again, these two are conflated as one and the same. And if you’re going to forgive, you’re going to move back in. You’re going to give up the second rental car, you’re going to save the money, share the hotel room, and everything’s going to be as though it never happened.

Sheila

And again this is like 36 hours.

Like this is this. 

Merry

Is very, very quick. But it’s back to what I think

Sarah

Super correct Timeline.

Merry

Sarah about how the whole process of reconciliation and how quickly it happens. So I mean okay. Yes, I do recognize that forgiveness is critical for our own mental health because it does develop into resentment if we can’t let that go. But that’s really for us. It’s not actually about necessarily restoring the relationship, because for restoration to happen, there has to be repentance, which we saw.

But as you mentioned, with repentance, just because I recognize I’ve done wrong doesn’t mean I’m going to change because it takes a lot? Oh, we know this from neuroscience to change behavior many, many, many times of repeated change before it becomes a permanent habit of new behavior. And so if he’s been convicted in 24, 36 hours, his behavior is not going to change in that short period of time.

He’s going to go back to old patterns. There’s just no doubt about it. And so it’s so with that you need repentance, but you need to see change over the long haul so that you can actually rebuild trust. Because I can’t trust somebody if they’re going to go back to old behaviors. She said that she sort of alluded to it 

How can I ever trust that he’ll not do this again? And then there’s no real response to that. Well, he’s repentant, so therefore.

Sarah

There is though.

Merry

Yeah. But he they.

Sarah

The response is she asks all the right questions. It’s that the answer is given are deeply flawed. Yeah, yeah. She says, how can I trust him again? And it’s just just shut up and let God work. And so they can’t just. And I give myself as a living sacrifice. 

Sheila

And I will this is the way right on the cross. Yeah. And I want to stress again that this is like the big resolution of the book. This is supposed to be.

Sarah

It’s a finale. 

Sheila

Yeah. This is supposed to be the thing that we take away and we’re like, oh, isn’t that lovely? How everything is fixed now? But the way it’s fixed is, is just so highly problematic. And it is this idea that, yeah, that that you can wrap something up in a bow and that change will happen instantaneously and God will do miracles and you don’t have to do anything, and we don’t have to hold anyone accountable 

We just have to say, you know, God told me this, and I want to I, I want to move on for a sec about Tim because the Tim story actually really bothers me, because in this wrapping up of the bow, it’s like it ignores all the pain that she caused to her son, and I do believe she caused it because the father was terrible. 

Yes, but she never allowed her son to speak truth. And that was, that was, the big problem. So, you know, the dad, just for everyone else who hasn’t read this book, like Paul, they had this one son and Paul was not, never played with him, never spent any time with him. Ignored him, was always angry at him. 

If he got in trouble at school, even if it was because he was defending someone, the dad would lash out at him. It was just. It was. He was just a terrible father. And and here’s something that Eunice ends up saying to Tim. Your father doesn’t need your condemnation, Tim. He needs your prayers. And it’s like, no, no, it’s, you know, when you’re when your husband is is hurting your child and being abusive, emotionally abusive towards your child, you have to honor how your child is feeling, and you have to tell your child you are. 

What you are feeling is right and is completely understandable and normal. And we need to get you help, not telling her son that he has to turn off his feelings.

Merry

Yes. That constant. Yeah. Reaction to normal human relations. Emotions when you’ve been hurt or abused to just turn it down, forgive, pray and trust God to change. That’s the themes that are throughout. That’s that’s her version of redemption. And it has no, accountability or human responsibility to either for the offender, but also she. And you know what’s so interesting?

When I do work with kids who’ve been in abusive families, it’s not, often the one who’s clearly the bad parent gets lambasted. But really, the deepest hurt often comes to the one who was the good parent because she never protected him and she didn’t actually align with him or give him space to have those feelings of grief and anger and all of those things.

And had she done that, Tim actually had, a hope to have some healthy, emotional awareness and, ultimately, maybe even empathy for her, to his dad, because he felt heard and understood and that he had space to say, no, no, no, I was actually hurt and abused. And it’s right that I feel this way and I it’s legitimate and all of that.

And so that’s the challenge that, because, you know, when you’re working with human beings and human relationships, there’s just so many layers and, and to just dismiss people who’ve been hurt, and just to say, it’s just going to be prayer. It’s such a disservice to what a genuine healing journey looks like. And it takes a long time for that healing to happen.

Sheila

And I want to stress here, too, like it sounded to me like Francine Rivers was saying that was the right thing for Eunice to him, say to like over. And over again. 

Yes, Eunice is portrayed as this paragon of faith, right? Like she is the one who is in tune with Jesus. She is the one who was constantly praying. So when she tells Tim, you know, you need to pray too you need to not be angry at your father like that is portrayed that the thinking that you get reading the book is, oh, this was the right thing to do when it obviously was different.

Joanna

Yeah. And I think that even comes down to excuse me for, again, putting on my nerds about of literary criticism hat, on looking at the naming of the characters is often really helpful. And so you have Lois, as a mother in law, and Eunice and I have Timothy. That’s Timothy in the New Testament. Both Eunice and Lois in the New Testament are just portrayed as ballers.

They’re just the bomb.com. Yeah, yeah. And so understandably, therefore, there’s definitely a lot of, incentive in the book, even just again, from how she’s named her characters for us to see Lois and Eunice as being baller Christian ladies. And the sad thing is that where they fall short, they’re not called out for it. Like, Eunice is incredibly judgmental throughout the book, this is portrayed as being really good.

It’s a good thing to question if other people are saved based on whatever reason, like that. That’s how we’re supposed to act. It’s like ooo 

Sheila

I think, too, with this, this whole Tim thing, one of the problems that I have with it all being, sort of wrapped up in about the end and presented like, yes, this was bad, but look how much God has redeemed everything is like Eunice lost her relationship with her son.

 Merry

She did? 

Sheila

Yeah, right. Like her husband’s treatment of her and her son made her lose her relationship with her son. So when when he’s 16, Tim ends up going and lives lives living with Lois. I believe he’s 16. I don’t know, so we’re it. And he thrives with Lois, where he’s really had a hard time living at their own house.

Sheila

And then at the end of the book, Tim signs up for the military and leaves and so he’s basically out of his mom’s life, and he has been for a long time, and she lost her son because of how horrible her husband is. Like, I can’t imagine losing my kids like that. You know, like having my kids choose to live with another family member. 

And that was. And that that’s not even considered as a bad thing. 

Sarah

I, I want to push back on that just a little bit. I don’t think she lost her relationship with her son because of Paul 

Sheila

Right, Yes. 

Sarah

She lost her relationship with her son because she chose Paul. Yes. Yes. It wasn’t Paul’s behavior that cost her her relationship with Timmy. It was her decision to support Paul. No matter who he hurt. Yeah. Instead of saying, hey Paul, you’re a grown man. And you need to do some work because you are choosing to destroy humans. 

And I’m going to protect the child who is vulnerable and does not have the power to consent or not. 

Sheila

But do you think Francine Rivers was saying that like, do you think Francine Rivers was saying that she should have parented Tim differently?

Sarah

No. I think that the assumption, it’s a foregone conclusion that she would support her husband and that her child could be collateral damage. And that is just the way things are. Again, I think it’s just it’s this assumption as a baseline that this is okay and that it wasn’t even a big enough deal to have addressed in the narrative in the plotline at all.

But in real life, so there’s the specific area that I work in is primarily with mothers who are fighting to protect their children from abuse, particularly in the divorce and custody court system. And one of the things that I see over and over again is, yes, there is trauma when one person, one parent is volatile, abusive, unreliable, neglectful, whatever.

But like you were saying, Merry, the trauma is incredibly amplified if the safe parent does not fight for them, as the vulnerable children. When children see one parent. And this can go the flip side to if you have a highly abusive mommy or a dad who fights for the kids, it can go either direction. Course I just I happen to work with moms, but when the children see one powerful adult in their life, fight fiercely for them to be protected and cared for, even if that adult is not fully successful in preventing all harm, it changes the impact of that trauma because they know they were worth fighting for.

But in this story, nobody fights for Tim Yeah. He, he vanishes and then he just leaves into the military and he’s gone and he’s okay.

Sheila

And he’s okay And he’s portrayed as being okay.

Merry

Because he went off on his missions trips and it’s all this. Yeah. Experiences on the missions trips were very performative. It is.

Sarah

Yeah it’s very performative. But I see and and I, I’ve even had cases recently where I’ve had moms experiencing moms who have gone through divorce and custody stuff. They have an abusive ex partner. The children have experienced mom fighting for them. But then let’s say at school or at church, the children have experienced some kind of sexual assault or bullying or harassment.

And when those moms are like, oh no, kiddo, this is not okay, I am talking to your principal. I am talking to your teacher, I am talking to the youth leader. The kids are like, wow. Mom is fighting for me. And they’re seeing because as I’m working with them, mom is watching the dynamics with her own relationship with her child, improving and strengthening.

Not because it’s a good thing that the child had this traumatic experience, but their sense of value and worth and and importance in a healthy way. Their confidence is being reinforced because mom will go to bat for them. And I say, nobody does that. 

Merry

Yeah And written in the book.

Sheila

Yeah. And I just want to stress like, the point is, I do think that Francine Rivers was critiquing Eunice for not parenting Tim better. Like I do think at the end that kind of came out that she had recreated it. I mean, not not perfectly, but anything that came out. But my problem is that she wrapped everything up in a bow so tightly that even though Tim hadn’t been parented well, and even though he had been betrayed by everybody, he was still perfectly fine.

Joanna

Yeah.

 Sheila

And that’s that’s my problem is, like you, the message that you get from this book is you can treat your kids horribly as you support your husband, and your kids are going to be fine.

Merry

Because you just have to pray for them that God will take care of them. And that lack of personal responsibility for action is just so.

Sarah

Across the board.

Merry

Throughout, throughout, throughout. And the other thing too is, it’s so black and white. Either you stay and you’re a good Christian, or you go and you’re a bad Christian, and there doesn’t there’s no nuance in, in between of all the different aspects. So, for example, when I work with couples who are going through abusive situations or families in that it’s okay to do something called a therapeutic separation where you’re not separating for the purposes of actually necessarily getting divorce, but you’re giving enough space for them to be able to work through. 

What’s my part? What’s your part? What do we need to resolve? And and for children to witness, even though it’s scary, but for them to witness that their parents are actually working hard at trying to restore and, hold each other accountable and take responsibility, that is very, very, very critical. And even if things don’t work out in the end, resilience for kids isn’t that life is perfect, that life goes well

It’s that I can handle tough things because I’ve watched my parents model that they are able to deal with tough things are we? We can’t protect our kids from the reality of life. If I have an abusive husband, I can’t protect my kids from that. I can help them be resilient with that reality. But it also means that I have to be brave, and I have to speak up all the things that you mentioned. Sarah, it’s so critical. And that’s that was all missing for Tim. So that’s what I mean. It’s like wrapped up in a bow. What happened to him? How did he get so healthy? Or because God.

Sarah

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

I wanted to. Say, I think that the author and I know we’re we’re pulling this apart quite a bit, and pointing out a lot of flaws. I think the author did a fantastic job of painting a snapshot of how things often do play out. If we remove the fact that it seems to have been wrapped up as though this is how it should have played out, this is actually very true to life. On how many of these types of situations do play out.

And that internal cognitive dissonance. It’s real that the difference between David, Paul’s father being this overt malignant narcissistic traits kind of type of person. And then David I mean Paul growing up underneath that craving his father’s approval, never getting it subconsciously playing out and being a very covert, charming, broken, racist, but still highly narcissistic, using people as just chattel, obsessed with glossing over the public image and power, but in a way that seems very vulnerable and very a approachable in certain aspects.

And humble at first. And then how both Lois and Eunice are women who were profoundly exploited for their super traits. You have intensely entitled, abusive men, although they are never called abusive married to intensely loyal, deeply spiritual, intensely conscientious women whose entire purpose is to be basically the abuse beard. It’s not a sexual identity beard. They’re the beard that keeps people allowing him to get away with all of the stuff he does, because both Lois and Eunice would come around smoothing over ruffled feathers, being kind to bringing cookies, baking, baking things, sitting with the the people at the bedside and picking up the pieces so they were full time. Chaos managers. Because they were loyal kind honest. And the men that they married knew they would never leave. Paul straight up tells Eunice I saw you as someone who was so much like Jesus, you were very different from all the other girls. Why she was more loyal, more kind hearted, more easy to control and exploit.

And we see that sharing so often in these real life situations.

Merry

Well I was going to riff off a little bit and we’re probably going off topic, but I have a term I call nice narcissism because we can call a narcissism narcissist a mile away when they clearly.

Sarah

Grandiose. 

Merry

Grandiose, all about themselves, vindictive, all of those things. But in our Christian world, we have many nice narcissists. There’s a stat and maybe, Joanna, you can speak to it for, the high percentage of pastors who are, sociopaths, narcissists, it’s. Yes, but because part of the role of a pastor is to be this caring person. 

That’s why I came up with the term nice narcissism, because you can barely tell that they’re actually doing that niceness and the kindness for their own goals and their own gain. Anyway, I know I’m riffing off the topic, so yeah.

Sheila

Okay, so so so I know I totally agree, but so so let’s let’s leave that marriage for a minute and I want to talk about some bigger themes as we’re looking at fiction books, which is, as we said, you know, fiction books just just show things as they are. And so so we’re not critiquing what she displays is as things are, but we’re rather critiquing the message that you’re supposed to take at the end of the books, like Sarah says she does, she does portray what betrayal looks like, what narcissism looks like really, really well.

But the question is, what are we supposed to take away from it? So my question is, does she actually critique sexism in this book or does she uphold it? Because I think that she definitely upholds it, like the book.

I’m just going to run through a bunch of stuff and then I’ll let you guys comment on it. So it opens with paternalism. Okay. So you have a bunch of old men. This is the very beginning of the book, a bunch of old men sitting at the church that’s falling apart wondering what to do, and meanwhile their wives are all at home.

Cooking, etc. and they’re and the wives are being remembered for singing in the choir and for cooking. And they’re talking about the wives in these wonderful terms. Right. So that it’s set up like that from the very beginning. The women are actually portrayed as being more capable and invested, but they have no say. And that’s not critiqued. 

That’s like, aren’t these women lovely? And I made a list of all the things that women are praised for doing in the book, and I’m just going to list them. Okay. They’re praised for cooking, for cleaning, for running the nursery, for playing piano, and for being a great decorator.

Merry

And being pretty. 

Sheila

Yes. Yes, that’s something separate. We’re gonna get to that in a minute. But I maintain. 

Sarah

The good things they. 

Sheila

Do, like even little things. Like the old guy gets to watch his sports, but his wife can only watch TV if he’s done, even if he’s dozing off. But this whole thing is portrayed as so Christlike, right? Or here’s just a sentence.

You know, Abby served coffee in the fellowship hall. Samuel read Paul Hudson’s resume. Someone said it was a pity there were no cookies to go with the coffee. 

And, like, that’s just kind of the way the whole book goes. Yes. And then we get to all the comments on her looks. I cannot believe how much Francine Rivers has other people talk about how pretty Eunice is and completely inappropriate ways, but this is not critiqued. This is this is supposed to be flattering, and Eunice is flattered by it. 

So from early in the book, when Paul’s boss asks him how his wife is, he replies, as gorgeous as ever. Which is a bizarre thing to say, you know, when we first see his wife, she’s getting dinner ready and corralling a child, so she’s very gendered stereotype for it to begin with. Later, we have a God bless you, Paul, and say hello to that pretty wife of yours.

Right. Or later. Well, I can say one thing for sure, Hollis said out of the corner of his mouth, gazing at young Eunice Hudson. She sure is a sight for sore eyes. And then it even has teenage boys telling her how hot she is. And this is all supposed to be flattering and sweet.

Sarah

And then when Stephen Decker comes in, it’s the pretty blond at the piano, the pretty blond, the pretty blond. The pretty blond.

Sheila

Yeah.

Sarah

And I’m like, I haven’t got the faintest clue what Eunice might look like. Yeah, there’s been zero actual description, except for cliche blond. Yeah. Yes. 

Merry

Yeah. You know, personally, this has been, that really struck home for me because I was also raised of that generation where that was a common thing. And so I really struggled to discern when somebody was being, when I was being sexually harassed, when things were inappropriately being said about me. And I would feel it internally. My gut would kind of go, oh, gosh, I feel uncomfortable with it.

But I would smile and say instead and say thank you, even though it would be highly inappropriate. And it’s only now, as I’ve had time to reflect on it. I think about the many, many, many, many times that happened to me growing up, in the church. And it was just acceptable as normal behavior, positive behavior, even like it’s a compliment.

Why would you not want this compliment? And yet I felt so deeply uncomfortable. Dirty, almost. And then another part of me, like, I liked it because I like the attention, and I like the fact that, okay, I’m being affirmed for something. And so it sent such a mixed message for me that I’m still trying to untangle as a woman now.

And what, what boundaries are appropriate for me and how I’m responding in a way that’s really, I’m realizing, was a survival instinct of just, I just smile and put up with it. And I continue. Sometimes I do that, and that’s so that was that was a personal sort of like, as I process it, what that meant for me growing up in that type of church world.

Sheila

Yeah. And again, just this idea that these, these people who are in charge of the church or in charge of a Christian university or whatever, when they talk about this woman who is a paragon of faith, who prays a ton, what they mention is how pretty she is and how well she cooks and how she makes coffee and how well she sings.

And and it’s just that constant reminder of what a woman’s place is.

Joanna

Well, and not only that, Sheila, it actually goes, I think, a little bit further. So one of my this really frustrated me in the book because I felt that it was very unrealistic. But the Stephen Decker character has the hots for Eunice from the second he sees her.

Sarah

Right.

Joanna

And it seems to be entirely based on the fact that he saw her and got an erection. 

Sarah

Yes.

Joanna

And this becomes a key point in his character over a 16 year period. Yeah. From when he is 34 years old until he is 50, he simply continues to nurse this crush and to act hot and bothered whenever he sees her. She’s a married woman, and he’s portrayed not only that, he lears at her to such a degree that many other characters are aware of how he feels about Eunice, including characters who only see them together one time and they remember it 15 years later. 

Yeah, so this guy is being a creep. And I genuinely think this is sloppy writing. Because she wants us to see Stephen as a good dude. And I think that we just didn’t think through this part of the plot genuinely. I but what happens, and by implication, is that then Stephen is portrayed as a guy who was a screw up, has had a profound meeting with Christ, and is on the upward trajectory and doesn’t make catastrophic errors, except that he wants to be involved too much.

That’s kind of the critique of his character. But this attraction is so much that Samuel, the very portrayed as being wise and paragon of Christian virtue, despite the fact that he sadly makes many, many bad calls. Samuel is completely nonplused by Stephen’s super inappropriate behavior toward Eunice, sets him up in leadership, constantly talks about what a great guy he is, and just makes sure that Stephen and Eunice are that civil. Eunice aren’t together in the same room. That’s sort of the that’s the solution that they come up with.

Yeah, yeah. It’s like, no, that is super screwed up. 

Yeah. This is that’s what you’re doing. And it’s such a good thing because when Stephen had the opportunity to, to, have an affair with Eunice at the, in the middle of the book or toward the end, he doesn’t do it. And so. Wow, what a good guy. Amazing. 

Sarah

And that’s what I was thinking, is he is the foil kind of to Paul because they’re both parallel experiencing all of this profound attraction to someone who is not theirs, not theirs, but not their partner. And Paul acts on his, but Stephen doesn’t. So Stephen did it right. Yeah.

Instead of addressing the integrity deficits of nursing a crush and a sexual attraction for 16 years or instead of basically saying, so the Billy Graham rule is not going to fix the mental part of the. The, the affair that’s going on in your mind. So just don’t be alone in the same room. Well, that doesn’t address the thought issues and the integrity deficit that we’re seeing played out here for Stephen.

And so then again, it kind of reduces everything to, to two layers. One is it’s only adultery if you actually get in bed together and get caught, and then the second that kind of doubles down on that is toward the end of the book, when Eunice is asking herself that, Lord, didn’t you allow divorce for infidelity? 

And then she decides to stay? The answer is that even if it is actual infidelity, full blown physical infidelity, the righteous thing to do is pretend it didn’t happen. 

Sheila

Sometimes when we’re having a really, really fun conversation, that conversation just keeps going longer than we anticipated. And we had such a good conversation about and the shofar blew. I didn’t want to cut it off early. And so I we’re actually going to split it into two podcasts. So if you come back next week, you can hear part two of our discussion about this book. 

There’s lots more that we that we’re going to cover, including, Francine Rivers view on prayer and how problematic it can be. And actually, there’s a lot of inconsistencies in what she’s saying. Her view of the gospel, which is rather anemic. And and what is she actually warning us about? And it’s it actually, given the time that this was written, it’s quite creepy because she’s warning people that a lot of women are going to accuse men of clergy sexual abuse where it didn’t actually happen.

And given what’s happened over the last 20 years. Wow, that was a bad take. And we’ll also talk about what we enjoyed about the book. So come on back for part two.

Because we had a lot of fun talking about these fiction books. And a reminder, before you even do that, will you please subscribe if you haven’t yet to our podcast, just hit the subscribe button wherever you’re listening to this, or if you’re watching on YouTube, hit subscribe.

And don’t forget to hit the like button as well, because when you do that, it really does help the algorithm and it helps us be promoted to other people who might like the podcast too. And so that’s one thing that you can do to change the conversation about sex and marriage in the evangelical church is by helping other people find us.

So be sure to hit like and subscribe and tell other people about us. And I want to say a special thank you to our podcast sponsor this week again, the book For the Love of Women. It was really wonderful. We had such a good discussion with Dorothy Greco last week on the podcast, and I’ve got the link to that book in the podcast notes.

It’s really worth taking a look at, and we will see you again next week on the Bare Marriage Podcast. For part two of our interview and our talk about And The Shofar Blew. See you then. Bye bye.