Thank you to Zondervan and For the Love of Women for sponsoring this podcast!
Have you ever heard people say, “sexism is a thing of the past”?
Or maybe been in a conversation where someone has said, “sure, women used to be treated badly, but now it’s men who are on the losing end.”
And you know it’s not that simple or that easy, but you have no idea what to say.
Our culture, especially within the evangelical church, has bought into the idea that feminists are the cause of most problems in society, and that it’s actually men who are disadvantaged today. And that’s one reason why Dorothy Greco’s new book For the Love of Women is so important. In it, she shows how misogyny is still alive and well in business, health care, the media, the church, how we treat sexual assault, and so much more.
Plus she points us to the way forward. I so enjoyed this conversation–and it felt like a true back and forth!
Or, as always, you can watch on YouTube:
Timeline of the Podcast
00:00 You’re Not Complaining About Nothing
01:41 Meet Dorothy Greco & For the Love of Women
03:06 Why Write This Book? Dorothy’s Personal Story
13:36 How Society AND the Church Groom Men to Feel Entitled
22:44 How Men’s Sense of Entitlement Steals Women’s Sexuality and Destroy Marriages
30:02 How Misogyny Impacts Healthcare
32:52 Misogyny in the Workplace
40:06 Why Is It So Hard For Movies To Pass The Bechdel Test?
43:45 The Church’s Role in Perpetuating Misogyny
55:40 Should We Even Be Debating This?
58:38 What Gives Us Hope Right Now
1:02:03 Where to Find Dorothy & Final Thoughts
Just released!
For the Love of Women: Uprooting and Healing Misogyny in America
If you've ever been told, "sexism is a thing of the past; women are equal now. Stop complaining!", then you need this book!
Dorothy Greco goes over how misogyny is present in health care, business, the media, our relationships, and of course the church. She puts words to our experiences, and points the way forward.
Why the Bechdel test matters so much to me
We didn’t spend a lot of time talking about the Bechdel test, but I think that part of the conversation encapsulates so much. Do you know what the Bechdel test is? It was suggested by Alison Bechdel in the mid 1980s, and it’s quite simple: a movie passes the Bechdel test if it has:
- 2 or more named female characters;
- who have a conversation that’s not about a man
Like that’s a REALLY low bar. Just two or more characters who have names, who talk about something other than men.
And even the 2024 Best Picture Winner, Oppenheimer, didn’t pass it.
So think of how many women watch movies where we’re simply missing. We’re not there. Action movies often have one female character. She may do a lot, but it’s one woman and five men. So women watch media where we simply aren’t there, and we get used to erasing ourselves from stories, or not get as bothered when women aren’t considered, because women are secondary characters. We’re not the main story.
It’s just a microcosm of all the other things we talked about–how medical tests assume the male body is the norm, or how products are created for the male body in mind rather than the female one. It’s everywhere when you start to see it, and believers in Jesus should push for more. Women matter. We are just as important to God as men are. So we should not live in a society where women are secondary.
Things Mentioned in the Podcast
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LINKS MENTIONED:
- Dorothy Greco’s website
- Dorothy’s Substack: “What’s Faith Got to Do With It”
- The song Not All Men by Morgan St. Jean
What do you say when people claim sexism doesn’t exist anymore? What do you think of the Bechdel test? Let’s talk in the comments!
Transcript
Coming soon!
About the Brchdel test thing. I do not think you need to pass it to have a good story. I also do not think that the issue is that men are unwilling to see stories starring women.
Kpop Demoj Hunters made so much money and is a great story.
Sailor Moon is still one of the most influential Manga ever made.
Anita Battle Angel is both a great manga and the movie did great.
Compare these stories to the recent Star Wars films and you realize it isnt that people dont like stories about women or starring a woman it is that people can not stand a bad story.
I will also say this as a man. This website has taught me a lot. The books you have recorded the data you have acquired and the perspective you have shared have made me a better person. So I beseech you please use your skills to address the concerns of men to help all of humanity flourish.
I’m not so sure. I think in general that might be true. People just want to see good stories and there just aren’t very many good ones with female main characters out there. But my husband and I also joke about IMDB ratings for example; guys tend to rate / review movies more than women (or at least on IMDB and some other sites they do). We’ve noticed that if a movie has a lower rating on that site, it’s almost always because it features women as main characters or is perceived as leaning more toward kids or the “feminine” in its message/theme. Women have become accustomed to appreciating movies that don’t feature women or “feminine” perspectives but men have not learned to do the same. For example, I and many, many women love Lord of the Rings, but you might not catch a woman on screen (and definitely not on a page of the book) for hours at a time and it most definitely wouldn’t ever pass the Bechdel test–in fact, I don’t think any of the female characters (all 3 of them?) even speak to each other at all? But as a woman I can still love and cherish that story. However, you wouldn’t catch droves of men rushing off to go to see Pride and Prejudice or say it’s their favorite movie/book–even though it is an excellent story involving women.
Also, I’m curious how you think Bare Marriage could be helping men more? Genuinely!
Because it seems to me that when it comes to this conversation, the other side of the coin is all about men. God called men and women to be in relationship, but that’s impossible if men only know how to use and objectify women they are in relationship with. Women are learning to say no to being treated poorly and I think men need to learn to truly honor women (not jusr condescend), and let go of holding themselves to an impossible call of headship and leadership that God never intended for them. The problem is that this requires men learning to work on themselves first. I am encouraged to find many men (like my husband) willing to do that. But I see many more who are not. Someone must be in the right place to hear: “Change happens slowly, and it has to start with you.”
You want to know how it helps men? In my experience it is through both perspectives and giving people a knowledge based factual approach that will actually help you and not leave you feeling like a degenerate.
That’s great if you’ve seen a balanced, evidence-based approach work.
That hasn’t really been my experience, especially when I try to present the facts as a woman. And I never would have thought I’d make a “victim” sounding statement like that, haha. But it’s true. There was a time when I thought most men in my life would listen to me if what I said was reasonable and true and well-argued. Or they’d at least hear me out because they cared about me. Unfortunately I’ve had to be disabused of that naivety. I am learning that most people (Christian or not, sadly) only hear what they want to hear. Jesus called it long ago: “They listen but never understand.”
But as Sheila and Dorothy said in this podcast, I still have hope. We’ll keep trying. The Spirit of Jesus is at work even if we can’t always see what He’s up to. Aslan’s on the move. Even if I don’t get to see much meaningful change take place, maybe my son will get to see it.
Yes, I’ve been disabused of that naivety too!
“For example, I and many, many women love Lord of the Rings, but you might not catch a woman on screen (and definitely not on a page of the book) for hours at a time and it most definitely wouldn’t ever pass the Bechdel test–in fact, I don’t think any of the female characters (all 3 of them?) even speak to each other at all? But as a woman I can still love and cherish that story”.
True, but I love it when Eowyn kills the evil Nazgul after he tells her, “No man can kill me!”. Eowyn takes off her helmet to show her long flowing hair, and says, “I am no man!” before she kills him. Reminds me of Deborah and Jael or Judith! Or Esther having hamon killed on his own gallows!
“True, but I love it when Eowyn kills the evil Nazgul after he tells her, “No man can kill me!”. Eowyn takes off her helmet to show her long flowing hair, and says, “I am no man!” before she kills him. ”
In Tolkien’s Legendarium (official Lore of Middle-Earth), it was prophesided millenia before of that particular Nazgul (The Witch-King of Angmar) that “Not by the hand of man shall he fall”, i.e. “No man can kill him”.
The prophecy did not mention a woman and a Hobbit; in the original manuscript, Pippin first stabbed the Nazgul in the leg with an Elven dagger (from Lothlorien?) and the blow distracted the Nazgul for a heartbeat — just long enough for Eowyn to deliver the kill shot (a beheading stroke, not the thrust in the film). The description of the Nazgul also differs between book & film; in the book, the Nazgul had thrown back the hood of its cloak to reveal two glowing eyes floating in mid-air below a crown; the Nazgul itself being invisible beneath its armor.
And trying to pass the Bechdel Test with the Badass Mary Sue Grrl Boss method just makes things worse.
Yeah Hollywood lately thinks making a strong female character means shunning feminine traits altogether. Like I remember seeing a video of a black woman saying how it feels like black female characters are not allowed to be feminine and are usually more tomboyish and “sassy” most of the time compared to their white counterparts
I am playing Pokémon Legends ZA and one of the leaders of the many factions you fight, Jacinthe, is a very feminine black woman but she isn’t weak at all she almost acts like a fae in folklore and also uses her wealth and status as a weapon and not to mention her mega clefable kicks serious butt. Gamefreak really outdid themselves.
Also her theme is a total bop
Ever watched Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind? I would say the main lady in that film has more character than a lot of the slop put out nowadays. Part of how she winds up making the world a better place is that she is able to look at the Ohmu and think huh I wonder what you guys are going through and it works incredibly well. Uma Thurman’s character in that movie is also a pretty solid character in why she is motivated to do what she does.
I not only watched it but I read the manga that expands on the lore and I definitely agree.
But seriously though ZA is an amazing game (not to mention it passes the Bechdel test, yes, even if you pick a guy as your character!)
“Ever watched Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind?”
Both Manga and Anime.
30-40 years later, just reading your comment starts Nausicaa’s theme running through my head.
P.S. Any Miyazaki Anime has more character than the slop put out nowadays.
Yeah I have been using the Bechdel Test on my otome games I play for fun and there are surprisingly quite a few of them that pass since there is a lot of stuff to talk about like school, fantasy politics, work, etc. and not just your love life.
I will be honest as a woman I talk about guys a lot with my friends, but that isn’t the ONLY thing that we talk about nor should it be in fiction. I think a lot of writers especially men (though women can be guilty of this especially if they don’t have a lot of friends that are women) haven’t actually had a deep conversation with a woman before not even with their own mother so they think they are some mysterious alien species.
I find it interesting how often the idea of seeing the other sex as an alien species comes up on this website.
I admit otome games are kind of a fascinating way to breach the topic due to some of the characters involved.
Otome games can somehow turn characters you wouldnt really think of as particularly romantic and making them that way as well as just kind of fleshing out the character more.
I know one otome game did that for Kaiji from Kaiji ultimate survivor.
Interestingly making cos play outfits for odometer games was also part of the plot for My Dress up Darling and that series helped me understand women better and Marin Kitagawa is a character I have seen women actually really like.
“I find it interesting how often the idea of seeing the other sex as an alien species comes up on this website.”
With me it wasn’t “aliens” so much as a Fae Folk, a not-quite-human people you associate with at your own risk.
Does that mean the whole does this dress look good on me thing is some kind of fae bargain?
Shelia,
I love how you stated that you get into the debates regarding a woman’s role (according to God / the Bible / the church) not for the sake of the person you’re debating, but for everyone who is listening. I think that is a very valid reason to get into the debate…which I’m sure that you already know.
I grew up in the church and have been a christian / church goer all of my life. No one ever told me that slavery is okay or that racism is okay, but complimentarianism was taught as the truly biblical way. And, unfortunately, without any other points of view I just naively trusted that to be true. It wasn’t until I started listening to your podcast, (well, first Theology in the Raw and then your podcast that I found through Theology in the Raw) that I realized that Egalitarians are not twisting the Bible so that it says what they want it to say, but they are serious christians who are trying to understand the Bible for what it is actually saying…and maybe, just maybe, they have some really good biblical interpretations that are at the very least worth considering.
As long as parts of Christianity are teaching their particular brand of theology as “biblical”, and as long as the people in the pews are just going into church with their critical thinking turned off and willing to believe what the pastors and pastor approved books, etc. tell them, then we need people like you to help us to see that there is another way. Thankful for you and your ministry!
The listening audience was one of my motivations for starting seminary. I don’t have any hope of convincing a man who is convinced that he knows what he’s talking about because he “went to Bible college.” I do have hope that having equal or greater credentials and being able to present an alternative perspective will get anyone listening to ask questions, even if they only ask in their own minds at first. Of course, it’s complex because there are the listeners who will always believe a man over a woman or who think anyone who has more than Bible college education is by default deceived, but we can’t reach everyone. All we can do is put an idea into the light. The rest is up to the listener and God.
Thank you for that, Jules!