This week The Good Guy’s Guide and Good Girl’s Guide to Great Sex Turn 2!
Two years ago, these two books launched. I wrote the original Good Girl’s Guide to Great Sex in 2012, and Zondervan contracted with Keith and me to write a companion guy’s version, to come out on the tenth anniversary.
Even though the women’s version was still selling well, I was very uncomfortable with it, given our new research. And so I wanted to rewrite it. They let me–but I didn’t get paid anything extra!
However, I’m so proud of both of these books. If couples read them before they’re married, or early into their marriage, I think they would prevent so many of the problems we hear about.
Unlike The Great Sex Rescue, which is tearing down the toxic teachings and replacing them with healthy ones, the Great Sex Guides are building healthy teaching around sex from the ground up.
I want to make these the go-to bridal shower gifts and engagement gifts and even wedding gifts in the church, so we can get couples on a good trajectory!
One of my favourite parts of The Good Guy’s Guide is the Tracey and Doug story.
In our research for The Great Sex Rescue, we discovered that evangelical men and women have a 47 point orgasm gap, since 95% of men almost always/always reach orgasm, compared with just over 48% of women. To try to explain what the orgasm gap is like, we invite readers to think of sex as if it’s like going out to dinner.
Let’s do a mental exercise to help understand what this orgasm gap feels like from a woman’s perspective.
Imagine a world where what women need to feel loved is to go out to eat at a restaurant at least once a week, where you talk and enjoy a delicious meal. This is the pinnacle of marriage to her.
Picture a couple, Tracey and Doug, who tries to live by this. One Tuesday night our intrepid couple heads to a restaurant. They order appetizers, a main course, and a dessert.
The waitress arrives with Tracey’s appetizer—a steaming bowl of cheese and broccoli soup. Tracey finishes it and declares it delicious. But nothing comes for Doug. Then Tracey’s steak arrives. Doug’s still wondering where his appetizer is, but Tracey starts slathering the butter and sour cream onto the baked potato and takes a bite of the steak with peppercorn sauce and asparagus. She declares it scrumptious.
Now Tracey is finished with her steak, and the waitress heads toward the couple again. In front of Tracey she places a steaming, luscious molten lava cake. Tracey squeals in delight as she scoops some out. Just as she’s down to the last few spoonfuls, the waitress finally arrives with Doug’s chicken wing appetizer. Doug’s ecstatic, and he digs in, eating one quickly, and then another. But before he can get to his third one,
Tracey stands up, ready to go home. “Dinner was amazing,” she declares as she heads for the door. He follows behind her, glancing at the uneaten chicken wings still on his plate, while Tracey says, “I love doing this with you!”
Imagine that Doug and Tracey faithfully do this every week for ten years.
How do you think Doug will feel about eating at restaurants?
I shared this on Facebook lately, and commenters were pretty funny with some additions to the story!
Doug also needs to read books that tell him that, being a man, food just isn’t that important him the way it is to a woman. He’ll never really understand how important it is to his wife to eat in a restaurant every 72 hours and how she’ll come under demonic attack if she doesn’t. It’s just the way God made women, Doug.
And did everyone notice how Doug lets his emotions get the better of him on these dates? He should get up an hour earlier every morning to read books by Evangelical authors and write in his overpriced blue journal about how blessed he is to have a wife that goes to restaurants with him and not the cutie who smiles at her at work
I feel certain if Doug prayed, the Lord would help him feel full with just that.
If Doug were truly a godly husband and wanted the best for his spouse, then he’d get up at least an hour earlier than he currently does in order to spend more time with the Lord, who will surely tell him that Tracey having a meal should be all the fulfillment he needs. Because #speeritchul.
And it doesn’t matter if Doug just broke his back or pushed a watermelon size kidney stone out his dingaling – he can’t deprive his wife of this weekly meal or he’s a terrible husband. She’ll eat someone else’s meal and it will be his fault, obviously.
When I shared this initially, right before the Guides were published, I had people add even more to it:
Show up at the table enthusiastically, but don’t ask for a bite of the meal or you could ruin her dining experience!
Oh….and after decades of him taking her to the restaurant despite his own disillusionment, Tracy complains to marriage counsellors that Doug isn’t showing enough enthusiasm and the marriage counsellors decide that the best thing for their marriage, is for Doug to agree to a “restaurant contract” with Tracy. In the contract, Doug has to agree to taking her to a restaurant at least once every 3 days and if she asks and he isn’t able, he HAS TO set a guaranteed day that he WILL take her to a restaurant. His own physical health is also not to be considered at all. If he is ill or injured, that is irrelevant.
Oh and Tracy will be TAUGHT by “Christian” marriage counsellors, that it’s ok to ask Doug if he would like to “just go for a drive” or ask if he wants to go to a football game but either insist they leave the game seconds after arriving and instead go to a restaurant, (or not even go to the game, just drive to the restaurant once he gets in the car) or after the game, take Doug to the restaurant by guilting him (I’m not going to waste my time taking you to a game if we’re not going to a restaurant after! There has to be something in it for me!) or simply by force.
Then when Doug also loses enthusiasm for going “for a drive” or “to the game” (because DOUG knows the hidden language) he will be subjected to even more “fixing” by marriage counsellors. The finger will be pointed directly at Doug and ALL the issues in the marriage will be Doug’s fault for not being enthusiastic about going to dinner.
In some situations Doug gets a plate of Styrofoam peanuts to chew on while Tracy gets a steak. He has to pretend that the Styrofoam is delicious and he can’t ask for something else because it would be selfish to ask for his needs be satisfied. After all, the restaurant has always served couples this way, it is the right way, and even God said it is good for men to eat Styrofoam without complaining.
Sometimes sex drive isn’t the issue.
After a few weeks of going to dinner, the husband may stop putting in an order. I know I have stopped ordering! Also, his buddies would tell him to eat first, so we should dub pre-and-post dinner snacking as sinful – he eats with his wife and only with his wife and he should be enthusiastically happy and content with whatever nourishment he receives!
“Christian” marriage counselors will focus on fixing DOUG because *obviously* his lack of desire to continually keep taking her to a restaurant, MUST mean that he has to be helped to understand that he will enjoy it once they get there, that it’s HIS “lack of restaurant drive” that is the problem.
Sadly, the “Tracys” of the world seldom are able to understand that if they slowed down or didn’t start eating their meal until Doug’s meal had arrived, or shared their meal while waiting for his or worst case scenario, were willing to wait at the table and continue to talk with him while he enjoyed his meal, often they would find that their “Doug” was the one asking to go to a restaurant.
Some of the “Tracys” who think they’re stuck in a marriage with a “Doug” with “low restaurant drive” would be SHOCKED to discover that his “restaurant drive” would actually be a LOT stronger if he wasn’t so weak from hunger!
All of these made me laugh–but they were also so sad.
The unfairness is so stark when you reverse it and make it about restaurants, isn’t it? It’s easier to see it.
And so many of us in the evangelical church were willing to put up with this teaching, because we were told to not agree to it was a sin.
But this is just so profoundly, profoundly unfair and wrong. And yet the responsibility for making sex great has been put on the person who most likely has not been receiving as many benefits of sex–and may have been receiving none at all. Rather than talk to the person who is getting their needs met, we lecture the other. It’s so lopsided.
That’s what we’re trying to fix in The Good Guy’s Guide/Good Girl’s Guide.
Our prayer is that these become the go-to bridal shower/engagement/wedding gifts, so that couples start well. Imagine if a couple reads about Tracey and Doug early in their marriage. Can you see how that can change the whole trajectory? Imagine if they’re taught what the orgasm gap is, and they’re given the stats about how much more women want sex if they actually reach orgasm.
Imagine if young couples are taught that her desire is not the problem; the ingredients to their sex life are what you need to look at. And if she’s not experiencing pleasure; if there’s porn use; if there’s pain; if there’s low marital satisfaction or she doesn’t feel close–then desire will plummet.
So stop telling couples to go out to dinner, and start telling them to make sure that both of them get awesome meals.
Would that change everything?
That’s our prayer, so please, spread the word about these books. And then maybe, in fifteen years, no one will need The Great Sex Rescue anymore!
What do you think? Is there something you’d add to the Tracey and Doug story? Let me know in the comments!
To Tracy and Doug’s story, I would add:
Every second or third supper out, Tracy’s hot coffee spills on Doug, burning him and leaving a blister that takes a couple days to subside. But he must hide his immediate pain and subsequent discomfort so he doesn’t diminish her enjoyment and memory of a wonderful supper.
Oh, that’s a good one!
Hey, hey, hey, meals out aren’t always at supper! Breakfast out is pretty nice too! 😉
Mmm… bacon.
We also need to remember that Doug has been put on intermittent fasts for medical purposes- but he needs to be the one to make sure she is fulfilled by her meals.
Yeah, we women like our BREAKFAST MEAT! 🤣 🤣 🤣
We have to talk about Doug’s appearance. If Doug doesn’t have his “face on” or if he can no longer fit into his wedding suit or if he’s not willing to wear that outfit Tracey likes to see him in while she eats . . . Well, Tracey just might look at the other diners and watch them while she eats. It’s Doug’s job to look a certain way so that Tracey won’t look at other diners, and if Tracey doesn’t pay attention to Doug, then it’s Doug’s own fault for “letting himself go.” Doug better be hitting the gym and brutalizing his body so that it submits to Tracey’s expectations. Of course. Tracey has no physical standards to meet.
HA! Yes, that should be included too.
I like this one too. But also Doug may feel pressured when he sees Tracey looking at all the other Dougs in the world who seem to have everything together and look better and all the restaurant visits aren’t helping Doug to feel handsome as he is either since he is forgotten.
Or you could get some Christian experts to opine that while men “in theory at least” are also capable of enjoying a meal in a restaurant, it’s really pretty selfish to make that a priority, since the primary purpose of eating out is giving women the nutrition they need for bearing and raising children.
Oh, that’s good!
Don’t forget that Doug has to always look happy that he never got his meal, because he at least got to see Tracey enjoy her meal so much. He needs to keep up his Christian witness via his face.
Doug also should just keep his lip zipped about Tracey checking out other diners and their meals, and he should really expect her to want order those meals in the future. She just can’t help it!
He should be sure to suggest a variety of meal types and locations, and he needs to be super enthusiastic before, during, and after every meal.
He’s not allowed between meal snacks, because that would imply Tracey isn’t a very good meal companion. Plus, does he REALLY need food at all? Just because he has an alimentary canal doesn’t mean AT ALL that he needs to indulge it.
The whole restaurant analogy (which is a really good one!) just hits a lot differently when I remember my wasband demanding me to go with him and the children to a pizza place when I had mastitis (if you’ve never had it, envision feeling like the flu with a side of bad nausea) — because he couldn’t take his children out without mom along to help him. I could barely walk and I had to help him with his own children. 🤣😬😬
Lordy lord, does the entitlement ever end?
Doug also needs to initiate going to the restaurant because Tracey feels neglected and unwanted if Doug doesn’t suggest it.
And, of course, if Doug tries to advocate for his own needs (by asking the waiter what’s taking so long, or to wait to bring everything out together), he’s told that he’s making Tracy feel uncomfortable or inadequate.
Then, when Doug finally decides – after years upon years of unfulfilling disappointment – that he’s had enough and doesn’t really ever want to go to restaurants again, Tracy is completely blindsided. Can’t comprehend how different his experience was. Doesn’t he love her? How could he “deprive” her this way? When really, he’s the one who was deprived through years and years of willful ignorance and entitlement.
YES! So good.
I think that Doug should have a serious talk with the manager and get this straightened out.
If he does, the manager will obviously tell Doug that he has nothing to complain about! Look right here in the Restaurant Manager’s Operating Guide: it clearly says that some diners will just be disgruntled and that they’re misbehaving. They’re also ruining the experience for the other diners who are so clearly enjoying themselves. Doug will just need to accept that his place is a distant second in the dining-out experience, so he really should spend some time in his gratitude journal listing all the ways that Tracey is sooooo good to him.
Doug, Tracy has the need to eat a four course meal that you don’t have. So, just submit to her regardless of how you feel because remember going to restaurants is supposed to make you holy, not happy.
Oh Doug, don’t you know the more you go out to dinner, the more you’ll enjoy it?!?!
You already ate? Oh, well take her out again! She loves to eat and needs meals at a restaurant or she’ll starve. Think of how uncomfortable it is to feel that way. But you cannot simply understand what dining out means to Tracy. It’s just different for Tracy, Doug.
Just deal with it. Or talk to God. God made her that way!
I guess they think all women are asexual? So, Doug isn’t REALLY interested in eating food. It would be different if he actually wanted to eat. Which, since he totally doesn’t, it’s fine.
Also, maybe Tracy has a preference to go to dinner with women. Regardless of their legal commitment to only go to restaurants together, he needs to be understanding that she wants to go to dinner with women and not with him, becausehe is a man. But he is not allowed to go to dinner without her, or get his nutritional needs met elsewhere. He is stuck trying to make Tracy as happy as possible at home with the hope that she might take him to dinner every few weeks.
Only Tracy can pick the restaurant, which is always a cheap fast-food joint. At the table, only Tracy will be allowed to order the food. She will devour her food as quickly as possible, while looking at photos of naked women and refusing to look at him. She needs these photos to get through he meal with any sense of enjoyment because Doug’s man-face just isn’t attractive to her. Doug knows that it is hard for her to look at him, so he has put in the effort to look clean and tidy and put together. Tracy is in a stained sweatshirt and ripped blue jeans, and her hair hasn’t been washed in two weeks.
If she has leftovers on her plate, she may allow him to mash them together into a couple bite-sized portions of food. He should be grateful to her for her kindness when she allows this, and understanding when she doesn’t.
She will likely leave the table after dinner and drive to another restaurant–the one she really wants to go (a fine-dining experience)–without him. For this experience, she will shower, dress in something slinky, and apply some bright lipstick. Doug will never be invited.
He will have to take a cab home, pay the babysitter, put the kids to bed, and be alone the rest of the evening. He will be expected to be happy about this, and testify in church about how great their marriage is as an encouragement to other couples with starving men.
If he considers divorce, secular and progressive sources will call Doug “phobic,” and conservative sources will feel uncomfortable and try to salvage God’s reputation. Doug will eventually disappear from his community–no one knows or cares where he is, and frankly they’re all glad they don’t have to deal with him anymore. Tracy will be invited to speak at spiritual events at a variety of fine-dining restaurants on topics like “freedom” and “coming out.” She will be applauded. No one asks about Doug–he doesn’t fit in anyone’s preferred narrative, and asking about his experience would challenge EVERYONE’S presuppositions about rights and restaurants.
What about all the “Doug’s” out there that would love to take their wives out to dinner and have them enjoy a fantastic meal, but the wife only wants a hot dog and a glass of water? We offer them all the great things and they keep just to the minimum. Not all us guys are the bad guys!
^obligatory “not all men” comment
Thank you, I was thinking the same.
We keep it to a minimum because we’ve been crushed by a lifetime of shaming messages about our bodies, and the continual church drumbeat of “men need sex in a way women don’t” has been very effective.
You wouldn’t be suggesting men have been good at spreading false teaching on this subject, would you? 🤔
No, I am very sad to see some of the garbage that has been put out. I am very glad to see the message women can and do enjoy sex and just wish all women would enjoy the gift God has given them!
I Feel the same as you “not all guys are bad”. Many here must feel good to make fun of Doug. Sounds like a lot of hurt coming out. I imagine that most if not all of those commenting here have been wronged. If I were treated like that I would not be pleasant either.
This analogy is addressing the common teaching about sex in evangelical circles.
It’s criticizing curriculum.
Not people or behaviors.
No one is suggesting people actually behave like this.
What made you take this personally?
Meant for Not Today. The comments don’t seem to be general. I know that the situation is hypothetical. Some not all, comments were made with glee. Seemingly to heap more on Doug intentionally to rub salt in his wounds. To which several commenting applauded.
“Some not all, comments were made with glee. Seemingly to heap more on Doug intentionally to rub salt in his wounds. To which several commenting applauded.”
Are you so utterly unfamiliar with the “evangelical” “teaching” on sex as it’s addressed to women as to not see what’s going on in the post and comments?
Have you listened to men like Mark Gungor and Mark Driscoll? They absolutely pile on with glee as they demand that husbands get all the orgasms they want without the slightest consideration for anything, or anyone, else. Talk about rubbing salt into wounds, but when it’s only women who are wounded, it doesn’t really matter, right?🙄
Christopher Legg You ever been raped by the person who vowed to love you?? Been physical hurt over and over by that person for something they enjoy that you ‘should’ be able to enjoy, also? Watched your spouse flirt with the person serving you both?
Were not using glee, and it’s not because we love to hurt others. It’s called working through our trauma. Traume caused by the men who vowed to love us. We can laugh or cry. I’ve heard so many men complain they can’t stand when we cry- and now they can’t stand when we laugh? Really?
Do you pay attention to the commentors who share the good things about their husbands?
When we hope for a little compassion (or actually just a space where we can share our traumatic experiences because church spaces have been abusive and dangerous to us) , and you try to make yourselves the victims, that just adds to the trauma we process.
But please, keeping making US out to be the bad guys. Like we haven’t heard that song and dance about a million times. 😆🎼🕺💃
Anonymous. I Feel like I have hurt you in some way and for that I am sorry. Would never have done so on purpose. Not trying to play a victim or justify any bad behavior. I do know what it is like to see the spouse (that I would die for) flirt with another and eventually leave the marriage with said person. I can not imagine going through the other things you mentioned. I do not want to make you or any woman who have victimized out to be the bad person. That was not my intentions. I sincerely apologize.
Christopher Legg- Nope, you’ve not hurt me in particular, though I appreciate your apology and fwiw, I am sorry your spouse left you.
The spouse who raped me repeatedly and gave me years of silent treatment hurt me. The physical pain he put me in hurt me. The messaging from the church that enabled his behaviours hurt me. The church and the oligation sex message that very much mirrors the Tracy and Doug dinner narrative hurt me. More importantly, it all almost obliterated my relationship with Jesus.
What i hope you can understand is that the true situation behind this narrative HAS been pouring salt into the festering wounds of many women for decades. You stating some are doing so with glee is deeply insensitive at best, and demonstrates you’ve not yet fully grasped the severity of our plight.
Interesting you mentioned you would die for your spouse… you realize that is a situation few average men find themselves in, but we don’t often hear they will open up emotionally or share in the household labours. (I also believe it’s much more likely that women ‘die for’ their spouses- via domestic violence or in childbirth.)
Doug is not a real person, Christopher. The point of this metaphor is to show how women have been treated with sex. When people were commenting on what else Doug was supposed to do, it’s because it’s what WOMEN hve been told. We’re just bringing it out in the open. No one is hurting a guy named Doug, but our teachings are hurting women.
One other thing. This is a parable. You know, like Jesus used to use when He addressed crowd’s. And just as He said, some people would not understand.
Christopher, I assure you that my comments were not made with glee. No one is making fun of Doug–we ARE Doug. Genders have been purposefully reversed to demonstrate how ridiculous and horrific bad sex teaching is for women. The salt being rubbed in “Doug’s” wounds is all the bad teaching heaped on women who are being sexually damaged.
That’s sad that you went through what you went through. I have a male family member that experienced something similar. Being betrayed is not a gender-exclusive experience.
However, the male experience of being betrayed doesn’t mitigate the plethora of bad teaching and damaging cultural norms that ARE gender specific to women. And that’s what this article aims to address.
Being betrayed by your spouse is excruciating no matter what your gender is. But for women, this is compounded by the fact that almost all our spouses are physically larger and stronger than we are. And often, socially men are larger and stronger than we are.
Also, in situations that I know personally where the woman betrayed the man, he was in real horrible pain, but he was not under physical threat. In situations I know personally where the man betrayed the woman, in three of those cases there was serious concern that he might try to kill her before a divorce could happen.
Your pain and experience are valid. You experienced real wounds. I’m just pointing out that a man’s experience and a woman’s experience of betrayal are not the same experiences.
I think I’d be really curious as to why she’s only wanted fast food, get it over with sex rather than a mutually satisfying meal. Does your partner believe sex is for men and men’s pleasure only? Have there been dynamics in your relationship that have reinforced this message? Was she raised in a purity culture or with a purity culture mindset? What are the attitudes about sex in your relationship? Is it an obligation? How is rejection handled? How’s the relationship outside the bedroom? How are your wife’s needs/feelings/preferences prioritized in the relationship by her and by you? Have your read any books such as “She Deserves Better” and “The Great Sex Rescue”? What steps have you taken to gain insight as to why your wife would rather not participate in sex that would be (as you say) pleasurable for her?
Thank you, I had these questions too. You stated them beautifully!
Corie, to your point, I have probably 20 sex books, including the great sex rescue, awaken love and many more. Has she read them – nope, I have read them more than once and work very hard to put what I have read into practice. We were just talking the other nite and I asked her who taught her about sex and why that person was more important to her than the book authors and others who have tried to help her. She said no one told her anything, and I asked then why wont she read the books and try to figure it out – NO ANSWER! I asked her why she can listen every once in a while to Francie Wislow or Julie Siekert and how they changed but she won’t. It must be good for them, but not for her? I try very hard to make sure all her needs and wants are met, from physical and emotional. but nothing is working. 35 years and she still is uncomfortable. I don’t know….
So you, as the husband, have enjoyed orgasmic sex for three and a half decades? And your wife has not?
If that’s the case, do you have any idea what the mental and emotional and physical burden is that’s been put on your wife?
How’s your golf drive? Or your curve ball? Or your fine woodworking skills? Concert pianist? Operatic tenor? Reading to yourself without moving your lips? Or whatever physical skill it took you years or even decades to master? Are there any physical skills that you gave an earnest go at but realized it just was never going to happen, so you simply gave up?
If you’re passably good at several things but have at least one thing that you absolutely stink at no matter how hard you tried, would you like to be hectored incessantly to “just keep trying, you’ll get there!”? Or would you like the continual pressure to improve, or even just to keep trying, to stop?
Now switch that innocuous “skill” that you just can’t master to the deeply personal arena of sex.
And that’s where SO many women find themselves. We can’t even play scales, yet we’re forced to sit at the piano day after day. And be happy about it! Be enthusiastic!
🙄
Jo R – as a husband, I do not enjoy it that my wife does not enjoy sex. I would do anything, yes anything to help her enjoy sex. I would so much rather she enjoy it and be orgasmic as God desires. To say I enjoyed orgasmic sex is an overstatement, as it is not that great when your partner is not fully participating. She does enjoy an orgasm every once in a while and I would happily oblige to give her one, but she says not tonite. Not much we men can do. Just so you know, I am the guy who asks for directions, helps (does) the housework, provides all her needs and tries my best to give her her every wants. I think everyone could play the piano if they keep learning and practicing. It isn’t like there aren’t lessons and teachers out there – such as this blog.
Ok, let me try a different way.
Suppose your wife had been high school state champion in tennis. She was so good, she was offered a full-ride D1 scholarship. She decided to decline because she couldn’t see any way to do both her rigorous field of study and keep her tennis level up. She continued to play, though, unofficially, winning the intramural competition every year.
She marries you. You have never held a tennis racket. Every Saturday you go to the public court, and she tries to teach you because, as she says, “It’s so much fun!” You struggle. You cannot reliably get a ground stroke in bounds, you never do master an overhand serve, and your volleys nearly always go into the net.
Week after week, you try to match her enthusiasm because she’s your wife and you love her, and though you give it your all, your wife wins every set 6–0. Even when she’s not trying, she’s still simply able to outplay you.
You still going to be enthusiastic 35 years later? Or by year two, or year ten, or year twenty, are you going to start demurring? Going to start suggesting different activities that you might both enjoy?
Oh, and don’t forget, everyone is telling you that this obviously means SO MUCH to your wife, it’s been such an important part of her life for so long, that really, it’s almost selfish of you to deny her these weekly outings that she really, really wants to do only with you. You’re shamed and lambasted at every turn, you’re made to feel inadequate, you’re told you’re sinning by not providing your wife with this thing she wants so much. Can’t you just sacrifice for her? Is it really so hard to go out week after week and lose 0–6? Don’t you know how much she loves it? Can’t you die to yourself to give this to her?
Why haven’t you taken lessons? There are tennis pros out there, there are youtube videos, there are books and magazines. Have you exhausted every possible resource? Do you want her to have to look for other people to play with? And if she does, it will of course be all your fault for not meeting her need.
At what point would you like to finally be allowed to just stop trying, no matter how much she loves it and wants it, because you are simply never, ever going to match her level of desire and skill and enjoyment?
Hi Jeff-
I think Corie raised several great questions, including a couple about the relationship outside of sex. I also noticed most of your responses have been heavily focused on the sex portion. The following questions aren’t directed for you to answer here, but to mull over and self-reflect if you would.
What’s your motive in asking your wife to read those 20 sex books?
Are you looking to fix the “problem” of her not seeking out , agreeing to, or enjoying sex much, or were you offering because you realize she may have deep-rooted problems and you want her to find healing *for HER sake*?
Are you willing to forego intercourse for an extended period of time (longer than you might think) so she can begin to build trust that you will love her for her, with or without intercourse?
I’m not saying this is your situation, but if your wife chose not to respond anymore to your line of questioning, it may be that you have imparted more damage than you realize over the past 35 years, even if completely unintended. If she tried to talk to you about anything early on in your marriage and you didn’t respond much or were negative, then she probably learned you were not safe. Why would she trust you now, espcially if you are pushing conversations about sex?
In that case, is Doug at all curious why she only wants a hotdog and a glass of water? Does he have a history of abuse or trauma? Has she been steeped in purity culture? Is she exhausted by an unequal share of responsibility in in the marriage? Are there other conflicts in the marriage? Or are these great things only really great for him?
I truely believe that any woman can become orgasmic if they really want to. God has created them with that capacity. I mean is that not what this whole blog is about? To help women find and learn to enjoy sex as much as God created them to? I mean think about it – if my wife was the great tennis player in your example and really wanted me to play, I sure would. I would get lessons and keep working on it. However – God made EVERYONE able to enjoy sex – EVERYONE. He is a great God and wants us ALL to enjoy the great things, but if we don’t take advantage is that his fault? If we don’t take him up on salvation is it his fault? I can see I won’t win with you so have a great day.
I think you’re taking your (male) experience of sex—the ease of orgasm, the comfort you feel as you live in your (male) body, the “encouragement” that boys and men receive from all quarters of society (even the church) to indulge their sexuality and that aforementioned ease of orgasm because “boys will be boys”—while at the same time completely ignoring the real uphill battles women face in the realm of sex.
Those uphill battles include, but are not limited to, the following:
• feeling shame over their bodies when they hit puberty, whether early or late, because their breast development is obvious to all and a source of endless amusement to all
• feeling shame for having periods, even though it’s completely normal, natural, and necessary
• being “encouraged” to NOT know their own bodies and how they function in a COMPLETELY opposite way to way boys are encouraged to know how their bodies function
• being subjected to CONSTANT sexual harassment, from simple “jokes” about their bodies all the way up to and including the very real danger of rape
• never knowing which boy or man will harass or rape, so women are forced to treat all men with at least some suspicion and coldness
• being gaslit into pretending like the above things don’t exist, or they seldom occur, and even if they do occur, they’re not really serious, and rwgardless of how serious the abuse is, it’s probably the women’s fault anyway because she smiled or wore clothes she liked
• the very real negatives associated with marriage and motherhood for the vast majority of women, especially those in a typical church (see https://zawn.substack.com for lots of articles, but be sure to clutch your pearls ahead of time to accept her forthright language)
How much effort did you put in to sex from day one of your marriage? If you didn’t delay your own nicely automatic male orgasm until you and your wife jointly figured out her orgasm, congratulations, you yourself taught her that sex is too difficult for her and that she can’t keep up with you, so why should she bother to try to improve?
It’s funny that you choose to disengage because you “can’t win” with me. That’s exactly the way so many women feel about sex in their marriages. No matter what she does, she can’t win, because sex isn’t exciting enough (for HIM), variable enough, frequent enough, blah blah blah.
You think the “whole blog” is about women becoming more orgasmic? Perhaps you need to read this blog and GSR again. What do you do when your wife doesn’t want an orgasm? Do you still have sex with her knowing that she won’t get any pleasure from it? Judging from your original question, I’m guessing you do. If that’s true, why? This “whole blog” is about mutuality in sex: mutual enthusiastic consent, mutual pleasure, etc. There is no mutuality in one sided, hurry up and get it over with, hot dog and water, sex. There just isn’t. Thirty five years of behavior that reinforces the idea that sex is for you and not for her isn’t going to be undone by reading 20 books or even 100 books. Changing the dynamics of your relationship is done ONE action, ONE behavior at a time. It’s hard work. You speak of “working to meet her needs” but in a manner that seems to imply that she’s not working to “meet your needs”; specifically sex. If you’re still viewing sex as a “need” for which she is obligated to fulfill, I’m not at all surprised she has no interest in it. Sexual obligation is a thief of desire. THAT is one of the major points of this blog and of GSR (I presume, I haven’t read it yet). One that you seem to have missed. If your wife, or any woman, wants to increase her desire for sex and/or her ability to orgasm, she needs to do it because she wants it for herself and her own pleasure. Not so that she desires sex more often to make her partner happy.
Jeff, I tried to leave a comment about your post. I don’t see it here. I assume it was stricken from the record. I will try again. I agree that not all guys are bad. I feel bad for all the guys don’t mistreat their wives and for the wives/women who have been horribly wronged for so long. Lumping all men into the bad category is not fair either.
Chris Perhaps if the good men spent more time joining us in getting the bad ones to stop abusing us, you wouldn’t have to come here to tell us how horrible all us females are? Then maybe the bad guys would become the minority in these (evangelical) spaces so we wouldn’t have as much reason to complain.
You feel bad for the men who ‘don’t mistreat’ their wives… maybe you could try to feel more empathy for the women who have been raped? Beaten? Have committed suicide because their husbands tore them down so much they felt they had no other way out but death? And maybe you could not lump all of us into the category of being unfair.
‘Food’ for thought.
To Anonymous. I do push back on those awful things you mentioned when I have the chance to do so. In my original comment I also stated “feeling bad for the wives and women” who had been done horribly wrong. Also I did not say all females here are horrible for complaining (not implying that either). I figure if was treated as bad as what many women have been, I would complain also.
“when I have the chance to do so”
Maybe take a page from the evangelical teaching on sex playbook and **enthusiastically initiate** rather than just passively waiting for an opportunity?
Chris B You feel bad for them yet you come to one of the few spaces where they feel relatively safe enough to vent to complain they are being unfair when they aren’t even doing that? Who here has said that ‘all of us’ (all men) do this? How does that mesh with feeling bad for hurting women? How does that help them heal? How do your words here encourage other men to step up and stop these abusive teachings that you claim you ‘push back on when [you] get the chance?’
You’ve compounded hurt women’s trauma yet want to be consoled yourself. If you were treated as badly as many women have been, would you welcome a woman coming in and stating her case about how unfair it is on the women who don’t ‘mistreat’ their husbands? (fwiw, I am aware of some of what you have shared, and while it sounds frustrating and I am sorry for that, it also sounds like your actions early on in marriage may have contributed- maybe not, but if so then there’s a lot of pain there your wife may need to heal from.)
I sincerely hope you can start seeing how some of your comments can add to trauma of many of the women commenting here.
And because I know you’re going to pick this apart, I’m amending the misquote here.
How do your words here encourage other men to step up and stop these abusive teachings that you claim you ‘push back on those awful things you mentioned when I have the chance to do so.’?
Fwiw, one of the very damaging things I’ve heard men say over and over is an iteration of, “I know how hard it is on your ladies, but you have to understand how hard it is on men…”
To Anonymous. I will not try to pick apart anything you posted. My intent was not add any pain or trauma to any of the Ladies posting or reading here. You are right and I should have been more careful of what I had to say or said nothing. I would not even be following the discussion on this site except that I am trying learn. I value the discussion and comments. I have learned a lot over the last few months. I still have a long way to go. I am not here attack anyone or the teaching. I do not follow the popular Evangelical teaching on sex. I do not believe my wife or any wife is property to be used as seen fit. To anyone that I caused more hurt or trauma I am deeply sorry.
Chris B- Thank you. I think some belief systems are so engrained that we don’t even realize how all-encompassing it is. Thanks for trying to learn. Changing is hard. Relearning is hard.
To Anonymous. Thank you for the “Thank You”. I have fell awful thinking that I have contributed your (or anyone woman’s) pain or trauma. I appreciate the Grace you have shown to me.
Chris, if you believe that it is wrong for women to be mistreated, how about you stand with us instead of griping about those of us seeking help? None of us are saying that “all guys are bad,” but it is worth noting that some guys are bad, and calling them out for being so. Are you going to join us in that, or get offended because we are talking about ways that *some* guys have mistreated us? We come to platforms like this because guys like you have silenced us in others, and it is difficult as a woman to find help with an abusive situation. So what’s it going to be — are you going to keep being offended, or are you going to be the man God has called you to be and learn how to stand with people who are oppressed and need your help?
I was not offended by anyone. I will stand with anyone who has been mistreated. I was sexually abused at a young age. But my experience pales in comparison with many stories I have read on this site. I do not agree with using or abusing any woman or wife. A lot of men are bad as confirmed by many women sharing their personal stories here. I was not trying to silence anyone and should have said nothing. Again, I am deeply sorry for any pain I have caused.
Absolutely, Jeff. Many women just tell their husbands to get on with it because they don’t seem open to sexual pleasure. That’s a huge thing we dealt with in The Great Sex Rescue, and is often rooted in what she has been taught about sex and internalized about sex (which is why that book can help so much.)
But here’s the thing: even if her reticence towards sexual pleasure is not due to how he is treating her, if he continues to have sex with her when she doesn’t get pleasure he will make the problem worse. She already feels like sex is supposed to be one-sided; if he then allows it to be, even if he’d prefer it to be another way, he solidifies that. If someone says, “it’s okay if you use me,” the correct response is not just to take them up on it, but to get to the root of why the feel used.
I know many men don’t want this situation, and they’re not responsible for it in the first place. But if they allow one-sided sex for a prolonged period of time, they will make the problem infinitely worse.
And that is why the need to change the *teaching* is so vital.
A couple of weeks ago my husband and I went out to dinner, and apparently there was some miscommunication in the kitchen, and my food was brought out quickly, while his didn’t arrive. I did not eat, even though it was taking a long time and he encouraged me to go ahead. After about 10 minutes (with the server dropping by periodically to say his meal would be there “soon”), I said I would start eating if he shared it with me. So we shared the by-then lukewarm plate until his meal came out.
This is not what “comes naturally”, it’s how I was *taught*: when eating a meal together (at home or out), we don’t start eating until everyone is served. Nor do we dash away from the table the minute we’re finished, we show respect for dinnertime and our family by waiting for others. I had to be taught this (in spite of my untrained, immature self thinking, “but I’m hungry!”), and a similar teaching is really needed for marriage.
Great example! (also, I hope that restaurant apologized profusely!)
Editing the fasting comment above.
Sometimes, Doug has to fast for medical reasons. However, Tracey wants them both to eat together when they go out. Doug, therefore, has to ignore the fasting rule, even if he risks serious medical problems, because if he doesn’t, Tracey might get slightly upset, which is far more important.
Oh, that’s a good one!
Also, Doug should not consider the expense or inconvenience at all. If Tracy wants to go to a restaurant in the 3rd quarter of the big game, or while Doug is playing with the children, or working on a project, or while he is sleeping he should always drop everything to take Tracy to a restaurant immediately.
If the restaurant expense is driving the family into debt or eating out twice a week is causing health issues, so be it. The family budget and Doug’s health are not relevant. He should just fast and increase exercise during the week and also work more hours to ensure he has enough money to get Tracy a great meal.
This is just common sense. If Doug really loves her, how can he stand knowing she’s hungry without doing something about it right dis minnut?
I’m not surprised by this for this blog, but this entire thing, comments and all is sad and shameful. This is the marriage bed that we are called to keep holy. The world (as well as Christians) will tell you that you need to go chase this amazing sexual encounter every time without at all considering our finitude which can lead to perversions and lust that demands alternatives.
Thank you for pointing out that “you need to go chase this amazing sexual encounter every time without at all considering our finitude which can lead to perversions and lust” is WRONG.
Because there’s a large and vocal swath of “Christianity” that maintains it absolutely does not apply when it’s MEN who are chasing the amazing sexual encounter every time.
THATS the problem. That is why this post flips the sexes and makes it about a completely different topic. All the comments are adapted from common “Christian” teachings to fit the reversed analogy, which merely helps point out the idiocy of the teaching.
The fact that sarcasm helps point out the idiocy is just a bonus for those of us who understand what’s going on in this post.
Lindsey, what are you even talking about? You seem to be suggesting that sex should not even be enjoyed. Did God not create the nerve endings? Did the devil add them on after the fall? Is that it?
“Doug” needs be happy with his lackluster restaurant experience because, in the end, his and “Tracey’s” patronage keeps the restaurant in business, and may create new jobs for the food service industry, so it can continue on for the next generation.
(Roughly translated: Doug needs to be happy that “bad sex” keeps his union with his wife together, and may make babies, so the institution we call “family,” or even “the church,” can continue on for the next generation.)
It has to be only when Tracy decides she wants to go out even if it doesn’t suite Doug’s schedule and never ever when Doug has mentioned a restaurant and tried to get some appetite for them both going earlier on in the day, it’s always after there’s been absolutely no build up during the day and no feedback of any kind from Doug is allowed apart from some stock phrases that Doug has found in the past don’t make Tracy say she regrets going this time at all. And absolutely no pudding for Doug alone while Tracy is in another room finishing and freshening up alone
Have you ever looked at if the orgasm gap changes and maybe reverses as the man gets older?
The idea behind this is the wife has had it pretty easy to get he man to orgasm and the man has had to do more “work” to get he the woman to orgasm. As they age this becomes much more equal and the wife has maybe never learned what is required to stimulate a man other than get naked.
I believe this may be a more common situation than you think. And it is made worse if even small “threads of fundamentalism” evanglical beliefs are in the wife and “nice Christian girls” dont have to do that stuff.
And if Doug says he’d rather not go to the restaurant anymore because the decades-long gastrointestinal trauma has affected all of his eating experiences and has created long-term health damage, Tracy is told she has the right to divorce him.
Does bare marriage have any resources at all on what happens when the ‘drive’ or ‘satisfaction’, as it were, is reversed? All the materials seem fixated on the idea that it’s always the women who is unsatisfied and it makes me feel so broken and freakish that I don’t seem to be able to satisfy my husband, despite trying everything I can think of…
We certainly do talk about this in our books! And we’ve got some posts on what a wife should ask if her husband doesn’t want sex. We also have lots on if you have different libidos. I’ll try to write another series on it soon!
What about if Tracy snacks on sweets and pastries all day, subscribes to food bogs – can never walk past chocolate without having some … her nibbling is consistent and ingrained.
She’s gaining weight.
And when Doug takes her to the restaurant she doesn’t really enjoy the cuisine. She’d rather be home – having a candy bar and curled up with her food magazine.
We all know that the problem is that Doug isn’t taking her to restaurants often enough, right? Her weight gain and lack of discipline over only eating sweets is all on him. He just isn’t measuring up in the husband/restaurant department.
Right?
(This is a sarcastic post – referring to porn use – if anyone needs the help …)
Good additions!