PODCAST: Why Evangelical Marriage Advice Often Backfires–The 5-Point Faulty Foundation

by | Jan 23, 2025 | Podcasts, Theology of Marriage and Sex | 47 comments

I often get accused of just hating all evangelical marriage books.

Surely there’s SOMETHING you like, Sheila? Right? Or are you just trying to badmouth everything so that you can sell more books?

The critiques often go like that.

But here’s the thing: It actually makes much more sense that I don’t like ALL the books rather than I like half but not the other half. 

Because if evangelical marriage books share a faulty foundation, then it makes complete sense that they would all contain toxic teachings!

And today Keith and I are going to work through the faulty premise that all evangelical books, conferences, and advice tends to be based on–and the four harmful ideas that flow from that one faulty premise. 

This was all in the alternate conclusion that I wrote for The Marriage You Want, but then pulled at the last minute because I thought it was too controversial (you can get that free alternate conclusion IMMEDIATELY when you preorder The Marriage You Want and send in your receipt!)

Or, as always, you can watch on YouTube:

 

Timeline of the Podcast

7:28 “Men are an Authority Over Women”

34:46 “Marriage is Hard”

 48:02 “You Aren’t Allowed to Leave”

52:46 “Your Reward is in Heaven”

 

That 5-point faulty premise affects everything. 

And it goes something like this:

1. Men are in authority over women in the home, and women must submit to men’s leadership.

This is your first faulty premise. If people are going to teach this, though, then the next naturally follows. There must be a reason for men to have authority, so:

2. Men and women are different species, and have different personalities, roles, needs, approaches to sex, and more. The two sexes really don’t understand each other.

This approach often causes confusion and distance between couples, so then they teach:

3. The problem is your expectations. No one can meet your expectations except God alone.

This works for a while, but eventually marriage problems build up again and can’t be ignored. So that leads to:

4. Marriage is hard. What else do you expect?

And when that STILL doesn’t work, you get:

5. You can’t divorce, but your reward is in heaven.

But if you start from a different premise–that teamwork and mutuality is the goal, and is totally within your grasp–then health follows!

Today Keith and I walk through these five points, showing how all of them are pretty much EVERYWHERE in our marriage resources, even though these don’t really appear in the best-selling secular resources, which assume that people can create fulfilling relationships.

And remember–you can get the alternate conclusion, where I spell this all out in detail, when you pre-order The Marriage You Want!

The Marriage You Want is HERE March 11!

(And the Launch Team is OPEN!)

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Pre-order it now--and get pre-order bonuses and an invite to the launch team--so you can start reading right away!

Things Mentioned in the Podcast

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THINGS MENTIONED IN THE PODCAST

What do you think? Do those five points make sense? Let’s talk in the comments!

Transcript

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Sheila Wray Gregoire

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Sheila Wray Gregoire

Author at Bare Marriage

Sheila is determined to help Christians find biblical, healthy, evidence-based help for their marriages. And in doing so, she's turning the evangelical world on its head, challenging many of the toxic teachings, especially in her newest book The Great Sex Rescue. She’s an award-winning author of 8 books and a sought-after speaker. With her humorous, no-nonsense approach, Sheila works with her husband Keith and daughter Rebecca to create podcasts and courses to help couples find true intimacy. Plus she knits. All the time. ENTJ, straight 8

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47 Comments

  1. JG

    Yes, the five points make lots of sense. I haven’t listened yet, but I have heard most of these points being made by my parents sometimes.

    Reply
  2. Tim

    I’ve never really believed any of 1-3 or 5, and I don’t think my wife had either, but I can’t imagine a marriage that isn’t hard.

    Reply
    • Jane Eyre

      There are different types of hard. There is the hard of no longer living your life on just your own terms, and then there is the hard of hating to wake up in the morning and just waiting to die.

      Reply
      • Tim

        That’s absolutely true. And there are a million shades of hard that are worse than anything I’ve been through (though I can relate to the ‘waiting to die’ bit).

        I just objected to the implication (in the written summary, haven’t listened to the podcast yet) that if you avoid those specific toxic teachings marriage will be easy. That may not have been what was intended, but it’s how it came across to me. Possibly more a reflection of my mood than the post itself.

        Reply
        • Kristy

          I think marriage can be easy, but it requires not only avoiding those five toxic teachings but also marrying (and being) someone who is mature, loving, emotionally healthy, etc. (I won’t attempt to create an exhaustive list here, if that were even possible, but you get my drift.) If you are married to an abusive narcissist, then your marriage will be hard regardless of what toxic teachings you did or did not receive. The takeaway I got from this podcast was not that the absence of these teachings will make marriage easy but that their presence will definitely make a good marriage nearly impossible.

          Perhaps we need to find better words than “easy” and “hard.” I believe that marriage should not be and does not have to be hard. Life is often hard, yes, but marriage should be this deep river of love and joy from which we draw strength to face the hardships of life together. All relationships, of course, require attention and adjustment, but that doesn’t make them “hard.” Is friendship “hard”? Or does it not rather make our lives better and in many ways easier?

          Reply
          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            Well put. And, yes, I think it entirely depends on whether you marry someone emotionally mature and teachable (and whether you are emotionally mature and teachable too!)

    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      I think the problem is that they present “marriage is hard” as this teaching with no caveats. Nothing like, “if marriage is hard, that’s a sign there’s some work to do.” No, it’s just “marriage is hard” and you live with it, which gives people no tools to improve and no hope.

      Reply
      • Tim

        That is a better way to put it, thanks for responding.

        Reply
  3. Megan

    You guys touch on this at the end of the podcast but what I kept thinking the whole time is “I mean there is a tiny kernel of truth here.” The problem is that we have a large repertoire of Christian clichés that are so broad as to be unhelpful. These pastors just keep saying the same cliché over and over again but there isn’t a understanding or acknowledgement that how that cliché is applied to any given circumstance is different. As others have mentioned, there is a huge difference between we are struggling with infertility hard and my husband is a horrible person hard yet both get put under the cliché of “marriage is hard.” The problem comes when people assume they are equivalent because we used the same cliché to describe them. Could we maybe just quite using clichés and actually say what we mean with enough words that your meaning is clear? My husband and I constantly need to tell each other to “use more words” because we are assuming an understanding that isn’t there so I am yelling at all of these christian authors “USE MORE WORDS” (at very least it would force them to say the quiet bit out loud that they just expect women to suffer in bad marriages)

    Reply
    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      So true, and that’s a great example. We think infertility and bad husband are the same level of hard. Nope!

      Reply
  4. Jo R

    Absolutely fascinating that “your expectations are too high” is told only to women. Because no one would ever dare suggest to men that men having orgasms on demand would likewise rate a “your expectations are too high.” Hmmm????

    So on the one clip of the Chans… Is the husband showing the wife the gospel when he demands a hand job or blowjob while she’s recovering from childbirth or a c-section? Hmmm????

    “Marriage is hard.” Yeah, but the men manage to fake good relationship behaviors during the dating and engaged periods. Because if a boyfriend acted on every date the way soooo many husbands act at year ten, no one would be dating him. (And he’d then of course get to complain that “women just expect too much.”)

    Francis Chan basically praised wives for tolerating abusive behavior “that no one else knew about.” Yeah, because very conveniently for men, women who dare mention their husbands’ bad behavior are “gossiping.” Telling ***the truth*** about someone’s actions and attitudes and words is gossiping? But lying about those misdeeds to others and to ***oneself*** is, what, godly?

    Imagine if the verses used to clobber wives were not in the Bible. What verses would then be preached at wives? Do unto others, consider others, it’s better to give than receive, and all those myriad “one another” verses. But what would be different is that wives could immediately turn around and say, “Those verses are not directed ONLY at wives. They are directed at ALL Christians, with no exemptions given to husbands such that husbands can choose to ignore those verses in how they treat their wives.” But the clobber verses give husbands particularly and men in general a supposed reason to not be what would simply be a decent human being, let alone a reasonably obedient Christian.

    And now for the emojis.

    🤮 🤬

    Reply
    • Lisa M Johns

      This is why, as a divorced woman (who is not dating but is not opposed to the idea), I would be very hesitant to date an evangelical Christian man. They have absorbed WAY too much entitlement, and it has made them dangerous! Now (as usual) “not ALL men,” of course; but knowing what I have experienced from men in the evangelical world, I would consider it very risky to get involved with another one.

      Reply
      • Sheila Wray Gregoire

        I know. I completely understand that.

        Reply
  5. Phil

    Sheila – Do you remember a long time ago we were talking about suffering – maybe it was redemptive suffering and I brought up Francis Chan? At the time I was really in love with his work but was kind of questioning his revisions he was adding to his book(s). He had basically left the church he built to throw his family into suffering (those were his words) by moving them to India I believe it was…and then they ended up in Hong Kong I believe…something like that…but I was struggling with the idea of purposely putting yourself and your family into suffering….And that’s what they are talking about in the clips. It was quite profound when Lisa said there are no boundaries in humility found in scripture. WHAT? I see something here Sheila. The basis for the argument is Jesus died on the cross (complete humility) for us so we should die to our spouse (or woman should die to her man). We are to be like Christ, like Christ loved the Church. Die for Him…or him-a man. But wait! Jesus most certainly had boundaries. He held the boundary that we must obey! “You say that I am the King of the Jews!” He never admitted guilt! Unless I am blind, that is 100% a boundary. Then man crucified Him. And that seems to be the confusion here…The basis for the argument that we must suffer in our marriage is that Jesus suffered for us. And yes, he did, But he did set boundaries! And of course there is more-examples that balance the equation that always just seem to get ignored. At least that is what I see. Good stuff today as always.

    Reply
    • Lisa M Johns

      When people say that we must suffer “because Jesus suffered for us” I always want to ask if His suffering wasn’t sufficient for the job He wanted to do. Like, didn’t He suffer enough, and now we have to add our sufferings to His so that it can be enough some day?

      Reply
    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      Yes, Jesus definitely set boundaries! At times he would leave a town because He knew they were out to get Him, or He wouldn’t heal there. He definitely had boundaries! It is too bad that the Chans don’t get that.

      Reply
  6. Connie

    What if dear grandma would have read the verse that says do not be partakers of evil but rather expose it? Or, Go from an angry man lest you become like him? How dare we guilt each other by presuming what God will say to them in heaven? What if He quotes those verses and says, You could have saved your husbands life with boundaries?

    Reply
    • Lisa M Johns

      As an addictions counselor, the picture of her husband’s face when she gave him the birthday cake really touched me. Alcoholism and other addictions are such a source of shame and pain in the sufferer’s life, and my experience is that it is always a blessing to be able to show an addict that they are loved, and it can really touch a person’s heart.

      That acknowledged, I will also say that most likely this was not what Lisa Chan was talking about when she shared the story. And when she went on to say that there are “no boundaries on humility…” well, she’s not wrong. But there need to be FIRM boundaries on harmful behavior, no matter how much someone is suffering or in need! And this is the part that seemingly most of the church does not acknowledge!

      Reply
      • Sheila Wray Gregoire

        Exactly!

        Reply
    • GS-z-14-1

      Ep 5:11 speaks volumes. Moral ambiguity, judgement and justice, community and accountability, trust, compromise and witness — much comes together between partnership and exposure. Were pastors doing right, these things would be understood.

      Keep Grandma in your heart.

      For yourself, remember Abigail who went behind her husband’s back, declared him to be a fool, and gave David and his men vital aid.

      And Bathsheba intervened when Adonijah tried to take the throne; she told David of his promise to her about Solomon’s succession so that God’s plan was fulfilled.

      And Esther courageously set Haman’s plot before King Xerxes.

      On the other hand, Sapphira agreed with Ananias’ lie and died with him.

      And Jezebel supported Ahab’s desire against Naboth, and orchestrated false trial and execution on her husband’s behalf.

      Better and faithful teachers would lay such things before God’s people.

      Reply
    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      I know! Or her kids’ lives! What was it like for their children growing up with an alcoholic father?

      Reply
  7. Sarah Franzen

    The “she’s just trying to sell more books” argument tickles me. As though the obvious way to get rich in the the evangelical marriage advice market is to piss off everyone in the evangelical marriage advice market. Great plan, there, Sheila! Foolproof!

    Reply
    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      I know, exactly! It’s like–you do realize that the books that appeal to the misogynists sell millions, right?

      Reply
  8. M

    That Vaudie Baucham clip seriously sounds ominous, like I’m about to be kidnapped into a neverending cycle of marriage hell.

    Also, sexual sacrifice?? That makes it sound like a temple prostitute 😵‍💫

    Reply
    • Connie

      Temple prostitute. I never thought of that, but that’s about the best description of what the church has taught yet. And how I have felt. Thanks.

      Reply
    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      Yep!

      Reply
  9. JG

    I came across a book on my bookshelf that Dobson wrote about marriage (Love For a Lifetime). I probably haven’t read it since before I got married and don’t plan on rereading it either. I flipped through the chapter titles, and some of them contained at least 3 of the 5 teachings. It probably contains all of them, but I’m not sure that I want to take the time to look for them. Fortunately I have forgotten much of what was written in that book anyway. I definitely won’t be giving that one to any of my children.

    Reply
    • Lisa M Johns

      You should recycle the paper into something really lovely, like making paper roses for a wreath. Or shred it for the bottom of your pet rabbit’s cage. Whatever.

      Reply
      • JG

        Good thoughts. My oldest and youngest daughters are very creative. They might be able to do something like that with the paper. As to pets, thankfully rabbits aren’t on the list. I don’t think they would survive our dogs.

        Reply
    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      Yes! And dont’ donate it either. Rip the cover off and recycle it so that it doesn’t hurt anyone else!

      Reply
  10. CMT

    Wow, the clips of Lisa and Francis Chan talking about her grandma are so sad. Since they dwelt so much on her eternal reward, is it safe to assume there was no temporal one?

    I’m picturing the spouses of abusers and addicts who could’ve got out but didn’t, “for gods glory”, finally getting to heaven and meeting Jesus. “I’m so sorry I have to tell you this, but you were lied to. I never wanted you to go through all that, and I’m so sad you believed I did. I love you and I wanted better for you.”

    It never occurred to me to imagine therapists in heaven before, but now I think the place must be full of them.

    Reply
    • Jo R

      “Since they dwelt so much on her eternal reward, is it safe to assume there was no temporal one?”

      If there isn’t any temporal reward (or joy, or pleasure, or any other “good and perfect gift”), it would have been nice if Jesus had said “I came that they may have life and have it abundantly—but only in heaven, not here and now.” 🙄

      Reply
      • Megan

        I suspect it is coming from a place of pain. Lisa just cannot and will not accept that her wonderful loving grandmother suffered for nothing. Even worse if she suffered for nothing and something could have been done but wasn’t. That is a hard unfair pill to swallow so it is just better if we focus on her heavenly reward.

        Reply
        • Jane Eyre

          I’ve noticed this a lot. Women don’t want to believe that they wasted their lives catering to selfish men or “sacrificing” for their families, and at the end, what do they have? A lifetime of regret, grown children who have their own lives, and the realisation that there isn’t anything godly about not having orgasms in marriage.

          Reply
        • CMT

          I think you’re right, and it’s understandable, but awful. They could be using this story to say God doesn’t want people trapped like that, and how to get help. Instead they’re criticizing those “other” Christians who want people in toxic relationships to have some option besides “endure and be irrationally nice while you do it.” And these folks have a pretty sizable platform. How many people in toxic relationships might stay longer because they are influenced by these comments?

          Reply
        • Sheila Wray Gregoire

          Yes, I think so. It’s like, what if her adult children could have rescued her? So many questions!

          Reply
    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      Absolutely! I wonder what people will hear when they suffered needlessly. I think maybe just Jesus saying, “I never wanted that for you. I’m so sorry you thought I was the kind of God who didn’t care if you were safe or not.”

      Reply
  11. Annie

    Hi there! I’m incredibly grateful for your passion for helping women and marriage…your book “Good Girls’ Guide to Great Sex” was truly healing and helpful for me early on in my marriage! I enjoy listening to your podcast and hearing about your new research! However, it seemed to me that in your most recent episode about the pitfalls of evangelical marriage, you were overlooking some significant Scripture passages while making your argument. You spent a lot of time criticizing “The Resolution “ and how it specified different goals for men and women, but the pattern that we see in Scripture is that there ARE supposed to be different areas of focus for men and women. (Titus 2, 1 Tim. 2, and 3, Ephesians 5) Of course there are many instructions and Christian virtues that apply to all followers of Christ, but I don’t understand how you can claim that “The Resolution” is unbiblical when it’s simply doing the same thing that Paul did in the New Testament.

    Reply
    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      Because The Resolution divided things by gender that are not divided by gender. The New Testament does not tell women they don’t have to stand up to injustice–but The Resolution does. The New Testament does not tell men that they don’t have to have compassion–but The Resolution does. The Resolution divides virtues by gender but God doesn’t, and that does great harm.

      Reply
  12. GS-z-14-1

    So hundreds of millions of books were sold, and marriages remain in an abysmal state.

    Am I the only one to find the “profit motive” line somewhat … counterintuitive?

    Reply
    • Lisa M Johns

      Seems like a good business model: “Keep saying the same things only try to make them a little more poetic than the previous ones. People are lapping this stuff up, so keep producing it.” Suffering apparently creates very hungry consumers.

      Reply
  13. Am M

    100% devastatingly accurate synopsis of evangelical marriage teaching.

    Reply
    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      Thank you!

      Reply
  14. Gaylene

    I am reading Rich Villodas’ new book, The Narrow Path, about Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount, and I read his section on the Beatitudes after listening to this podcast. He points out that Matthew 5:9 reads, “Blessed are the peacemakers,” not “Blessed are the peacekeepers.” He says, “Peacemakers are those that work for right relationships at the expense of their comfort'” and asks what’s the difference between peacekeeping and peacemaking? He points out that peacekeeping avoids conflict and is superficial and calls the results false peace, which really results in chaos, not peace. He goes on to say that true peacemaking sometimes creates conflict because it calls out injustice and false peace, much as Jesus’ table-tipping encounter in the temple called out the exploitative practices that took advantage of vulnerable people. All that to say, it really struck me that accepting the faulty premises you outline in the podcast is false peacekeeping. “Don’t dare expect adequate communication or decent treatment from your spouse; men are in charge, and marriage is just hard, so suck it up, buttercup!” – This is false peace and a skewed view of Jesus’ purpose for our lives, and it’s harmful to the Christian walk of both spouses! It blunts everyone’s right relationship with God, but some of these authors seem to place the husband in a higher position than God.

    Reply
    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      Really good! Yes, indeed.

      Reply
    • Lisa M Johns

      These are such excellent points!

      Reply
  15. MS

    Lisa Chan … thou dost protest too much, my lady. I’m so sorry you have had to think so long and hard about this, and I’m so sorry your heart is broken. That’s all I can see here.

    Reply

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