Sheila here!
Did you know that every Friday about 45,000 people get an email from us, written by Rebecca? And more people read her article than read anything I write on the blog or on Substack!
It’s usually really well thought out, and connects a lot of the different themes we’ve been talking about over the course of the week. Plus it has links to all our articles and podcasts, so you don’t miss anything.
But you only get to read it if you’re signed up for our email list.
I thought last Friday’s was especially good, and I wanted to run it today so you can see what you’re missing if you’re not signed up! (And you can sign up right here).
What do you do when there’s no “good” answer that will help people make the right decision?
On last week’s podcast we talked about how women are refusing to get married at higher rates than ever these days, and how that’s linked to decreased trust that marriage will actually benefit the woman’s life. Women aren’t getting married because they can’t find men who are willing to be full partners, who share their values, who see them as equals in the relationship.
And of course, Al Mohler weighed in with a length report talking about how terrible it was that women were choosing to leave men lonely and single, blaming it on women being too progressive and not caring about how God designed for them to be subservient to men.
I really don’t know how that was supposed to encourage women to get married.
But this situation brings up a problem we deal with quite frequently when it comes to sex, relationships, etc:
Often the “right” answer cannot be prescribed, but must be discovered individually.
Let me explain.
In many situations, there are competing realities. For example, in this one we have the following statistics that are both truth:
- In general, women who are married and have children are happier than women who remain single.
- Many women who are married and/or have kids also have worse health outcomes if they are in bad or unequal relationships.
So if a marriage goes well and a couple has children, your life has serious benefits. There’s someone to take care of you when you’re old. You have more social and family supports. You have increased happiness due to easy companionship since you literally live under the same roof. Married families tend to have more money than two people each living alone would since you can pool resources and slash expenses. There are serious benefits that have long-term payoffs.
But also, when it goes bad, many of those benefits disappear or actually lead to a deficit beyond what you would have had it you remained single.
The second point is incredibly salient in today’s age, and rightfully so.
But here’s my question—what is the relative risk of a false belief that the first scenario (a happy marriage) isn’t an option, and so you choose to stop looking?
And let me be clear—I’m not saying what anyone should do! I’m inviting you to go on a thought journey with me, and recognize how tricky this is.
The Condundrum
Because if I, as someone trying to give advice, is more concerned that women will miss out on scenario 1 (genuinely happy marriage that will actively add to their life and increase happiness scores over the lifetime) and pressure women into dating and getting married, what if as a result more women end up in scenario 2 (marriage that is a detriment to her wellbeing)?
Sure, many women may have gotten married to great men who may have otherwise given up, but what about those women who were ready to give up on dating and would have remained single who are now in bad marriages because of that advice?
The flip side also has collateral damage:
What if an overly pessimistic view of the state of men and encouraging women to stay single leads to many women who otherwise would have gotten out there and dated a ton and met wonderful men and had kids who go on to change the world in great ways don’t? What if these women don’t get to experience the joy of a wonderful relationship because someone convinced them it was hopeless when it actually wasn’t? In this case, many women wouldn’t be in bad marriages, but we also have some women who wouldn’t be in good ones.
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There’s a similar conundrum with the topic of romance novels
We talked about this one in the podcast two weeks ago—what’s good for one person may be bad for another. Some people are prone to dissociation and unhealthy coping mechanisms and may turn to romantic or erotic books to cope and get their sexual needs met in a pacifying way, much like how men turn to porn. That is simply true, and it happens. I personally do not believe that is healthy, since I believe that anything that is used to ignore emotions isn’t good for you, and also it’s very fair for a spouse to be hurt if their partner is getting their sexual needs met outside the relationship.
But other people just like a good story, and enjoy the catharsis of being immersed into the experience of humanity—including sexuality. For them it’s not about sexual release as a way to self-soothe, they just like a good story and a good romance! Doesn’t impact their marriage, isn’t an unhealthy coping mechanism, it’s just a story the same way some people like thrillers or historical fiction.
Also, there are some people who will read these books and have unrealistic expectations of the people around them. Saying “That doesn’t happen” isn’t helpful because it does. No, your husband won’t be able to read your thoughts, and he is just a person the same way you are just a person.
But at the same time, many people reading these books are not engaging in unrealistic comparisons of their spouses, but these books made them realize that (like I said in a podcast months ago now) their husbands are acting like the guy you’re rooting for her to break up with! Many women realize for the first time their husbands are controlling, abusive, selfish in bed, etc. because stories are an excellent way to depict different relational dynamics that otherwise may not be brought up in everyday conversations with friends.
Often, no matter what stance you take, there’s going to be “collateral damage.”
We tend to try to deal with this by presenting both sides, but we’re seeing literacy rates dropping, and it’s a really concerning trend. But in the larger scheme, with Al Mohler’s take on female singleness and people talking about romance novels, there’s another angle:
often one side’s advice prioritizes the comfort of men, and the other prioritizes the safety of women.
For example, let’s take the dating situation above.
My personal opinion (and this is opinion) is that it’s better to miss out on marriage entirely than it is to end up in a bad marriage. That was my philosophy when I was dating, and it caused me to make very different decisions than many of my peers who just wanted to get married as their end goal. And that’s because my priority is safety first, and then comfort second.
But it seems like consistently, in complementarian and conservative Christian spaces, men’s comfort takes precedence over women’s safety.
Women are consistently sacrificed as the collateral damage.
And what about reading novels?
“You can’t read those books, it might put ideas in your head about what a husband should be like.”
What’s the collateral damage risk for men if women do read these books, and start to assess their husbands? That some women may be dissatisfied with them or even divorce them because of silly romance books for no good reason (very unlikely to happen, not backed up by research).
What’s the collateral damage risk for women if they don’t read these books, and keep themselves from assessing their husbands? That they might not realize that they’re being abused and may remain in an abusive, terrible marriage where they are being raped for years longer than they needed to.
It is much more statistically likely that a woman would be unaware of what healthy relationships look like than that a woman would blow up a marriage over nothing. And yet, so much Christian advice sees the first as the larger threat.
Now let’s look at relationships:
“Women need to prioritize marriage, it’s God’s design for women to submit to their husbands and it’s necessary for society.”
What’s the collateral damage risk for men if women keep having high standards for who they will marry? Many men who may have otherwise made wonderful husbands will stay single because women left the dating scene.
What’s the collateral damage risk for women if women stop having high standards for who they will marry? Worse health outcomes, worse mental health outcomes, increased risk of abuse, increased risk of death.
And in both these scenarios, with the exception of truly silly women who cannot engage in critical, logical reasoning and who approach the world in bad faith, the problems of male collateral damage can be fixed by men simply stepping up their game.
Why are men so scared their wives will read books with depictions of men who are great in bed, who are romantic, who are thoughtful and kind? Many, many couples are avid readers (including erotic books!) without concern about comparison.
Why are men so scared that women won’t get married unless they find someone who wants to be an equal partner? They can just learn to embrace equality, which includes making homemaking and parenting a personal priority!
In many areas of life, there’s going to be unintended and unfair outcomes.
I don’t want to downplay the difficulty that people face when they desperately want to be married but aren’t. There are many people who would make wonderful partners who are going to be single long-term, and that’s just an uncomfortable reality.
But I think what’s missing in these conversations is the recognition that women are also facing single lives if they choose to remain unmarried. They aren’t asking men to put up with anything they aren’t doing themselves.
The reverse of that is not true—men like Al Mohler are asking women to put up with infinitely more than they put up with.
So yeah. This stuff is complicated to talk about. And there’s often not a one-size-fits-all answer, even when opinions make it seem very black-and-white.
But I think we’d be off to a better start if we started asking ourselves, “Who is this stance sacrificing as collateral damage? What is the relative risk to both groups?”
Because then maybe we could start to work our way back towards fairness and justice, even in the tricky topics where there’s not a 100% success rate.
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Well, gosh, if men are so big and strong and smart and capable and leader-y, they shouldn’t have any problem at all living by themselves, right?
Right?
They can apply all their qualities to themselves instead of having to share it out to a wife appliance and any eventual kids.
What are men really complaining about? The whole darn house can be their man cave, not just part of the basement or the shed out back. They don’t ever have to check in with the little woman about a Friday night out with the boys or a weekend camping trip with their buddies, or at least they won’t hear any complaining since there’s no one to have “forgotten” to check in with. No nagging reminders about dirty socks or disgusting bathrooms or soccer practice or meal times or anything. Men would get to live in complete peace the lifestyle that kids think adulthood is all about.
So again, why would men be complaining about this state of affairs?
Please, fellas, explain it like I’m five, using words of one syllable.
“Please, fellas, explain it like I’m five, using words of one syllable.”
Lack of Access On Demand.
Always notice in the Manosphere (including the Christian Manosphere) it’s always about SEX and never Companionship?
I agree w all your points AND these are all before you factor in the damage of bringing children into the equation.
Women who marry immature, harmful men are more likely to have children w immature, harmful men than those who remain single.
Some people never really shake off the damage caused by having a harmful father – esp if they had a squashed, depressed, maybe chronically ill mother due to their father’s harm.
This might be too simplified, but I’ve thought of it in terms of cumulative suffering:
If a nice young lady gives 50 years to a harmful man (when she might have stayed single), and has only 2 kids w him – but let’s say they carry that harm (to some degree) throughout 75 years of life (if they don’t heal OR self-destruct early w substance abuse), then that’s a combined 200 years of suffering, IF they don’t perpetuate that harm outward and forward (like by becoming harmful parents).
It’s a *huge* gamble, and for what? So men have someone to do domestic labor for them (for the low, low price of a gold ring & half a bed) while they pursue ladders to climb, or maaaaybe not fall into sexual sin? (just kidding, they’ll statistically still probably use porn)
And maybe I should place this first, but trading a woman’s safety for a man’s comfort is human sacrifice- just more drawn out than if society used a knife & altar. And that’s before you add kids to the equation.
(Sorry if this posts twice; my phone glitched when I tried to submit)
I lived on my own from the age of 18 until two months before my 30th birthday. It was great. I came and went as I pleased. I hunted and fished as I pleased. I chased girls as I pleased. When I turned 24 I moved into the farm house after my parents moved into my grandparents’ house. Again, I lived as I pleased. I built a law practice. I ran a farm and I grew up in the process. I decided that I want to share my life with somebody. I was engaged to a walking disaster. After putting up with all from her I could stand I broke the engagement. A month later I met my now wife when her Volvo broke down. She was an assistant administrator at a 350 bed hospital and has a MS degree in healthcare administration. We clicked. We’ve been clicking for 36 years come June.
I matured over that 11 year period and started living life as an adult. I had responsibilities and I acted like it. When I married I acted as a married man should. When we had children I acted as a father should. When we had grandchildren I threw the rules out the window.
I love that, Boone! (And also, yes, being a grandparent is awesome!)
Spot on!!
That’s a GREAT point!
It’s like those stories from women who say, “I stayed with my alcoholic husband for forty years, praying every time he was out drinking, and then he became a Christian!” Okay, great. But meanwhile you raised three kids with an alcoholic who abused them, and those three kids are trying to deal with that trauma.
“IF they don’t perpetuate that harm outward and forward (like by becoming harmful parents).”
Which is the original meaning of the Bible-term “Generational Curses”.
Each generation raises the next, including the next inheriting the BAD behaviors of their parents to pass on to the generation after.
No Purple Thumb O’God from On High necessary.
The more I learn about Patriarchial Christianity, the more clear it becomes that it’s a religion not rooted in Jesus (who is love and selfless). There’s so much selfishness and lies in Patriarchy. It’s usually the men that are guilty, but there are women that promote it and obey it.
How do you change someone’s mind who chooses to live in falsehood?
It’s really hard!
I lived it for a long time, and I don’t think it’s possible in most cases to change someone’s mind if they’re choosing to live in a way that prioritizes (idolizes, worships) patriarchy. The only reason I got out of it is because the horrific damage eventually woke me up, and I started thinking that if the fruit was so bad, there must be something wrong with the source.
Unfortunately, I think the main way to wake up from this is pain that goes past your ability to self-deceive. In my case, it was considerable.
Taylor, I resonate with your every word to the marrow of my bones. As for my husband and two kids (sorry, Al) when we talk as a family, which we have committed to doing every other week, fleshing out our hurts and such, and homechurch on our couch each Sunday, we find that we have become true followers of the One, True God. It feels right. It looks right. It lands right. And you are right, Taylor. When the pain goes past your ability to self-deceive, you have to wake up. One step further, I believe it is the Hand of God touching us and saying, “Enough. Now, listen to ME.”
My pain was causing me to actually start to entertain suicide but I told myself that my kids did not deserve that. God woke me up and revealed what emotional abuse really was so I could remove myself and kids from the abuse.
“How do you change someone’s mind who chooses to live in falsehood?”
You can’t.
“THE DWARFS ARE FOR THE DWARFS! WE WON’T BE TAKEN IN!”
— Chronicles of Narnia: The Last Battle
I am coming to the conclusion, based on the transcript of Mr Mohler’s podcast, and similar sentiments that I have read, is that this appeal for “creation order” is really code for “have the a significant number of kids and keep our demographic representation strong.”
There are reasons for us to be concerned at a societal level if we have an aging population, but what does that have to do with Christianity? Jesus didn’t have kids. If any of his followers had kids, it wasn’t considered important enough to record in the NT. Again and again the idea of a *spiritual*, not a physical family is emphasized in the NT. There are no stories of miraculous healing of infertility in the NT, unlike the OT, because physical lineage was no longer important.
Mr Mohler says that one reason for getting married at age 20 vs 30 is that it can impact the number of children born to a family. Which strikes me as hypocritical, because according to his bio, he has TWO children.
It looks like playing a numbers game: the more kids you have , the greater likelihood that some of them will stick around in church, keep the churches open, buy the books, give money, vote the way we tell them to. Otherwise we might be outnumbered by the Muslims and the Mormons and the unwashed masses.
And I don’t mean this as being critical of big Christian families. I was raised in one, and I know it’s a blessing. But the point is that we are *free* in Christ to marry or not to marry. Each of us needs to examine our conscience- if our motives are selfish, or materialistic, or status-oriented… or not. I would say that a Christian woman who chooses to remain single and childless and face her retirement years alone because she cannot find a man who is striving to be Christlike (ie, not addicted to pornography, not expecting her to promote sin by indulging his selfishness, not limiting her ministry to others by failing to take care of himself and his own children), could very well be more self-sacrificial than a woman who jumps at the first chance to be married because she fears being alone, wants to stop working, or can’t face the judgment of being unmarried at a certain age.
Excellent points. 100% agree.
When your top priority is power and not love, you arrive at the mindset of Al Mohler.
Yep!
On the podcast last week it was noted that Mohler does not bring up porn as one of the reasons why young women are hesitant to marry. And it doesn’t surprise me because he is the one who claims that “there isn’t a man alive who isn’t bent in his sexual desires.” So why would a young woman who has access to education, can find a career she loves, and foster or adopt kids on her own, want to spend her life not only with, but under the authority of a sexually bent man??!
This is a really great point. There are a lot of people who point out that teenage boys watch porn, don’t understand that it’s a drug and not a how-to guide, and then ask their teenage girlfriends for degrading sex that is found in porn.
That doesn’t magically go away once those boys go to college and get married.
Any woman with an ounce of sense knows this, even if she isn’t consciously thinking about it.
It seems like it should be easy for evangelical pastors to tell their young people to stay far away from porn for the same reasons they should stay far away from cocaine.
(Crickets)
Great point!
I certainly agree that women are better served by singleness than a partnership to a man who is addicted to porn.
And.
Can we stop assuming that porn is only a man’s issue? 2023 data from Barna shows that 44% of women are viewing pornography. Let’s stop siltently shaming women for a “man’s issue” and start treating porn as a human issue.
The unhealthy messages are damaging to both genders. 54% of church-goers are regularly viewing pornography. Let’s get all people the help they need. And this certainly needs to include the partners betrayed by the infidelity of porn.
@sheila: This article does a great job of proclaiming the truth against lies commonly found in porn. I should know, I’ve seen my fair share fo it, and have now spent hundreds of hours in group therapy and listened to thousands of hours of podcasts to un-write those lies.
I read that in the U.S., the pay gap is reversed among unmarried, childless people: unmarried, childless women actually earn more than unmarried, childless men. If that’s true, then women have a definite financial motivation to remain unmarried. And with over 8 billion people on the planet, we definitely don’t need more couples having children!
The unfortunate trait I have learned in Christianity is that you cannot be your true self in front of an evangelical Christian. As a young mother in an SBC taking women’s bible studies, I was heavily judged for doing my Bible time at 10:30 PM. I was asked to consider not reading anything about fallen angels (which I heard preached about from the pulpit) because it was a sin. I was ostracized for a book on Bigfoot (I was a homeschooling Mom and my kids were interested in the lore and I was preparing a lesson) and told, “THAT has nothing to do with Jesus, and you’re kids would be better off in public education.” When I had difficulty in my marriage and had enough courage to come forward to my then-best friend, she went to the pastor who was helping me and lied about me, and dropped me as a friend. And this pastor … no matter how many times I cited my husband’s erroneous behavior, the way I was as a person was being judged harder, whereas he never faced judgment. Today, with married and family life exponentially improved, the praise not only goes to God but to the fact that we have 100% removed ourselves from the Christian community in which we live. We are healthier mentally and spiritually. We are more faithfully steadfast in our grace to others, in our charity to others, and with our love towards one another. And we do all three on our own out in the community, affiliated with no church. Maybe, if an egalitarian, non-denominational church opens up around us, we will go. Until then, we are good. Lastly, my husband and I BENEFIT so much from the men who respond to these posts. Thank you for showing us with your words a WAY we were not taught.