They called Doug Wilson fringe until he wasn’t anymore.
The first thing I saw this morning when I got on social media was a post by Christy Lynne Wood saying exactly that–they called him fringe until he wasn’t. And it’s true–I called him fringe as well, for a time. But now Doug Wilson is mainstream. What he’s calling for isn’t anything that some mainstream evangelicals aren’t also calling for–not all evangelicals, of course, but enough that are in the “mainstream” that we can’t call Wilson fringe.
I had a taste of how bad this was getting last week on social media, where I posted commentary about his CNN interview where he said women were meant for reproduction; where pastors from his movement talked about taking away a woman’s right to vote; where a couple from his congregation talked about a woman obeying her husband.
And I had several people tell me not to believe it, because it was CNN. I got into a protracted conversation with one woman about it.
It reminded me so much of the first Bare Marriage podcast we did in August about authoritarianism, and how it has crept into evangelicalism, so they’re almost indistinguishable now. This woman doesn’t believe what I said about Wilson because the news source isn’t one of her tribe, and she sees the world in terms of us vs. them. It didn’t matter to her that you could listen to these things come out of Wilson’s own mouth, and that Wilson himself had tweeted out a longer version of the interview, because he was proud of it. We still shouldn’t believe CNN.
Dear God, how did we get here?
Kristin Du Mez believes the central problem is that conservatives refused to critique Doug Wilson.
She wrote a wonderful piece on her Substack that deserves to be widely read, and I want to talk about several specific aspects of it. She was referring to Peter Bell, who started the Sons of Patriarchy podcast (you can listen to my interview with him from two weeks ago on marriage!), and how he himself is a conservative. But when he started the podcast, he couldn’t get conservatives to come on. He had agreements with some of them, but then they backed out. So the only people who agreed to be interviewed were progressives.
Why? Because if conservative leaders critique Wilson, their following will split. Churches will split. And so they say nothing.
Kristin explains how she included Wilson in her book Jesus and John Wayne as an example of someone who was once fringe who became mainstream. She says:
In the 1990s, given the audacity of Wilson’s claims, his geographic isolation, and his preference for building his own empire on his own terms, it would be right to place him at the very fringes of American evangelicalism. But by the 2000s, with the rise of New Calvinism, the growing popularity of “biblical patriarchy,” and the turn toward increasingly militant models of masculinity, Wilson found himself within shouting distance of the evangelical mainstream. Wilson hadn’t softened his views or toned down his rhetoric, but this didn’t seem to exclude him from polite company. Not all evangelical leaders approved of his style, but many considered it forgivable. Some found it commendable.
John Piper helped smooth Wilson’s path from the outer edges into more respectable circles. In 2009, Piper invited Wilson to speak at his Desiring God Conference. Suppressing a bit of a chuckle, Piper noted that Wilson had a way with language, that he was a “risk taker,” but Wilson got the gospel right. With his “unflinching, unashamed commitment to the Bible,” there was much to like in Doug Wilson. When controversy surfaced around Wilson’s views on race, Piper again came to his defense. In a video that was at times almost flippant, Piper pushed back against those who had “perceived” Wilson to have minimized the horrors of slavery. He assured viewers that “Doug hates racism from the core of his gospel soul,” and declared his readiness “to stand with him even if there are differences in historical judgments” concerning the Civil War and the best way to end slavery.
Despite his views on slavery; despite his views on women; despite him officiating the marriage of a pedophile; despite him overlooking abuse–he was welcomed with open arms. And influential people paved the way, while others said nothing.
Conservatives had many reasons to critique Doug Wilson
While I tend to focus on his views on race and women and abuse, he also has a really distorted view of the gospel, and his whole theology is completely unorthodox. There was no reason not to have theological debates with him.
But they largely didn’t. They let him be, because they figured he was fringe, and too many people were liking him and they didn’t want to tee off some of their congregation.
By doing so, they normalized him.
Conservatives claim to be the defenders of the faith, but it has been “progressives” defending it
(And I put “progressives” in quotes for a reason which we’ll come to in a minute!)
But here’s what I find so ironic: these men are always going on and on about how brave God calls men to be, and how men are supposed to be the leaders, and how men need to stand up against our culture and show them who Jesus really is.
Yet when the name of Jesus is truly under attack, being hijacked by a racist, vile misogynist, where are these men? Nowhere.
Who are the people speaking up against Doug Wilson?
Largely it’s the women, or men who have stood alongside women. It’s people like Peter Bell, who came out of a very conservative denomination, saw what was happening to his friends and family, and wanted to do something. And in doing so, he found that it was largely women, or men who worked in abuse spaces, who were willing to talk. And if you look at the interviews on the Sons of Patriarchy podcast, you’ll find people defending orthodox theology; you’ll find people arguing against Christian nationalism; you’ll find lots of people calling out Wilson for promoting abuse and racism.
But you won’t see any John Pipers.
You’ll see those who have written books to counter Christian nationalism and the current thread in U.S. evangelicalism to focus on power.
So who is really conservative?
Which leads me to the real question which this whole Doug Wilson debacle has got me thinking about, and that Kristin Du Mez also raises: who is it that is actually conserving the faith? That is defending the Bible, defending the way of Jesus, taking us back to Scripture and to the heart of the Saviour?
Is it the slavery apologists? Or is those of us who have been labelled “progressive” so others could dismiss us? Just like that lady wouldn’t believe her own ears because the interview was on CNN?
Here’s what Kristin said:
Ask Rachael Denhollander how this works.
It really is a brilliant strategy. Only conservatives are allowed to critique men like Wilson. If you critique a man like Wilson, you’re not a conservative.
Look at that last part again: “Only conservatives are allowed to critique men like Wilson. If you critique a man like Wilson, you’re not a conservative.”
Works perfectly for them, doesn’t it? We don’t have to listen to progressives, because progressives don’t love Jesus/don’t know the gospel/ignore Scripture/are woke/whatever insult you want to put in here. We’ll only listen to conservatives.
But if you critique Wilson, you couldn’t possibly be a conservative. So therefore we won’t listen to you.
This is what happens to women who speak up against power hungry men and power hungry theologies in modern evangelicalism. They can come from the most mainstream of all mainstreams of evangelicalism–but they’re still labelled progressive.
- Karen Swallow Prior taught at Liberty University and a Southern Baptist Seminary.
- Kristin Du Mez taught at Calvin College, a Christian Reformed Church denomination, and attended a CRC church
- Rachael Denhollander was homeschooled, and married a homeschooler who attends a Southern Baptist Seminary. They attended a church that was in the C.J. Mahaney camp.
- Beth Moore was high up in SBC circles.
- Beth Allison Barr’s husband trained in an SBC seminary, and pastored in a conservative evangelical church. Beth teaches at Baylor, a flagship evangelical university.
- Aimee Byrd had a popular podcast in OPC circles–about as conservative as you can get.
- Mary DeMuth attended Josh Howerton’s SBC church
And I know there are so many more! Even me–I attended a Fellowship Baptist Church in Canada and then an Alliance church. I homeschooled my kids.
Seriously, we were all about as mainstream evangelical as you could get! But when you start talking about abuse, when you stand up for women, and when you call people back to Jesus, they tell us, “you’re not one of us. You’re progressive.”
If “progressive” means having the mind of Christ, then I guess we’re progressive.
But how sad is that, when caring for the abused and the oppressed and getting back to the life of Christ and loving others as we love ourselves becomes “progressive” and not “conservative”?
When standing up for women to be thought of as whole people in Christ is “progressive”, and not “conservative”, that actually says more about what they think is worth conserving.
They don’t want to conserve Jesus’ treatment of women. They don’t want to conserve Jesus’ passion for the least of these.
So what are they conserving–if they’re scared to speak against Doug Wilson?
Jesus always tends to work on the margins of power.
When on earth, He hung out with fishermen and shepherds; with prostitutes and tax collectors. With the poor. He didn’t hang out with the wealthy (although He did go to their homes when invited). He didn’t have them in His inner circle. Instead, He worked on the margins.
And throughout Christian history, God has usually done His greatest work on the margins, because power and Jesus do not go together. Jesus ushered in an upside down kingdom where it’s not about power and authority, but service. And since those with power are usually reluctant to give it up, then those with power usually miss the point.
Theologies that focus on who gets power over whom are the antithesis of Jesus. Doug Wilson is the antithesis of Jesus–but so is every conservative who claims to “stand up for Christ” and who claims to be a brave and strong leader, but who won’t call out such vile and wicked heresy.
And as you fight against power, you tend to be pushed to the margins, which is heartbreaking. It’s heartbreaking to be rejected by the people who were your people. By the people you grew up with, you volunteered with, you served with at camp and in youth group and on praise teams. By the people you thought were your friends.
Yet as more and more stand up, we get pushed aside and marginalized. We get called progressive.
And you know what? As I look at the last ten years of my life, they have been progress. I’ve found Jesus in a whole new, vibrant way. I’ve found like-minded people. I’m not butting heads with leadership anymore. And I’m focused on what matters.
So perhaps that is progress–because if being “conservative” means conserving power-over theologies, then I want nothing to do with it.
What do you think? Have you been labelled a progressive for holding to basic, Jesus-centered things? How did it affect you? Let’s talk in the comments!
It is not just Wilson. See. I am a more conservative right wing guy and I have noticed something. There is a growing split in right wing conservative spaces going on between people who are concerned with morality and tradition and such and those that are able to generate clout and argue against ideological opponents.
One place you can see this firsthand is looking at the debacle between Pearl and women like Lauren Southern. I have serious disagreements with both of them but at core they are arguing about the perceived value in tradition vs the pursuit of happiness and I find both have premises i cant agree with.
With Wilson it is similar. Wilson talks about tradition. I value tradition but let me ask you is his conception of tradition or history correct? I would say no. Medieval women didn’t operate in the way Wilson wants and neither did women for most of American history. The esteemed proverbs woman ever notice she is doing business and is rather shrewd about it? Women traditionally worked at home yes but they did so not only necessarily for subsistence but as entrepreneurs in cottage industries.
Wilson also finds himself at odds with me in how he wants a theocracy something that the founding fathers explicitly said no to and something that several big names in Christian thought have said no to. C.S Lewis outright rejects theocracy because it will inevitably weaken both the state and the gospel. St Augustine didn’t want a theocracy either. In this way Wilson is not being conservative.
I also do find that people who are more conservative do criticize people like Tate and Wilson but parts of the right wing dont because they see them as useful tools to use against the excesses of their ideological opponents.
Personally I dont want Marx or Wilson because I think they both are verifiable nutjobs who are not going to implement policies that benefit anyone.
I also find it funny in a way that Wilson advocates for classical education because I assure you the man would not appreciate people learning logic because that could threaten him. He also would oppose learning about evolution and would likely be very critical of learning about civics.
The thing I find so odd about people like Tate and Wilson is how they can understand a real problem in the world namely men feeling a lack of purpose as society changes and yet they prescribe solutions that if carried out will lead men into despair as they either chase after hedonism that has been dressed up with butchered stoic ideas or they wind up crushed under a kind of legalism as they try ironically to show that they value the insight of Christ.
Thank you for writing this. I had noticed about 10-15 years ago that any church that even allowed women to speak from the pulpit or had female pastors were considered “not Biblically sound” or not “real Christians” and we needed to “stay away” from these people. I have found that both the extreme left and the extreme right have several serious issues. This is why we are called to follow Jesus and be discipled by Him and not government. Politics can’t parent. Politics are a reflection of our value systems as people not necessarily a reflection of the values of God.
I see a lot of conflict avoidance as well from the average church goer, at least in my denomination. Sure, they’ll talk about defending the faith from outside influences (including the “progressives” of course). But the moment an issue pops up in their actual church? “Benefit of the doubt”, “It’s a secondary issue”, “They didn’t mean it like that.” For instance, we have a relatively new children’s ministry director. And there has been a lot of tension between her and other children’s ministry workers because she tends to not plan things very well. I think it comes from her coming from a smaller church than ours, because a lot of her ideas technically work, just not with the logistics we work with. Plus, I think she doesn’t always think things through, like originally expecting one teacher to do all the crafts across all age groups for our vacation bible school (would have been pre-k to 5th grade!), before said teacher told her she would only do one half of the age range. To my knowledge, our pastor and deacons have not done much to try to help her understand things, or at least mediate so she doesn’t feel like she is on her own in dealing with criticism. I think they might be writing it off as “differences in methods” and attributing it to the fact that she is pregnant again I think only a year after having her last baby.
That is the other thing that has me worried for her: She and her husband have 5 or 6 kids, not counting the current pregnancy. They all appear to have very small gaps between them, even taking into account a set of twins. Plus, to my knowledge, she homeschools all of them, so I have no idea how she has time and energy to be a director at all, really. The children are also part of the tension with other ministry workers, since she lets them play everywhere in the church when she works and they leave huge messes everywhere that others have to clean up (yes we have classes they could play in, but they roam whatever building they’re in, and are notoriously hyper). I honestly wonder if her and her husband don’t believe in any form of birth control, despite our church not having that policy. Unfortunately, this would fall under “secondary issues”, so I doubt anyone will talk to her about it (I imagine she would get defensive, anyway). I wish someone would, because she doesn’t strike me as very physically healthy (memory issues, teeth in what looks like long term poor condition), and clearly has a hard time handling having her kids all the time. (Her husband is a police officer, so we rarely see him, and I imagine he only has limited time at home due to his shifts).
In summary of the huge paragraph: Not surprised in the least, the “defenders” tend to be very conflict avoidant amongst themselves and give far too much “benefit of the doubt”.
I started sharing my thoughts on Facebook about domestic violence. I didn’t talk about female pastors, or submission, none of the things that I knew would be hot buttons. I was honestly trying to stay neutral and not start any arguments. In my posts, I called out the “Harrison Butker’s,” but once again, I tried not to ruffle feathers on topics like submission. I simply tried to remind others that when you raise up the “ideal of motherhood,” you may be excluding members of the Church, who can’t have children, or who may not be married, or who may be getting a degree after leaving their abusers. My main point was usually, women are people too. AND yet, I have been called “not conservative anymore.” I was told that the things I was posting were liberal or feminist. I simply couldn’t understand how standing against domestic violence and speaking up for the single or childless in our communities meant I was liberal now. Meanwhile, I am still pro-life, for heterosexual marriage, I still believe in marriage before sex…. If you’re asking me, most “conservative” talking points I haven’t changed. I simply want women to be treated as Image Bearers and for their partners to stop abusing them… I truly thought this was something any Gospel believing Christian could agree on. But I am starting to see that many churches have fallen so far down the rabbit hole worshipping the “family,” and “marriage,” and “male headship,” That they think calling out abuse and saying it’s okay for a woman to be childless are dog whistles labeling me a “secret feminist.” Thank you for writing this post. It has felt really lonley over here on the sidelines. Good to know it’s not just me. I guess if saying women are people and image bearers means I am a feminist…I will wear my scarlet F with pride.
Yep. Wanting women to be treated as Image Bearers is a step too far for most of them. And honestly–that tells us all we need to know.
It sounds like you need a hug. I am sorry you had to go through all of that.
You’re absolutely right, and as a life long conservative Baptist who holds to a very conservative hermaneutic with interpreting Scripture, I’m finding the “conservative evangelicalism” is drifting away from me. I’m honestly inches from chucking all the labels and walking away from everything but Jesus.
Ironically, I find these “conservatives” using the exact same playbook as an actual “progressive” does when it comes to how they interpret and twist things to get the text to say what they want. And what’s really interesting, is that Doug Wilson will rail against “godless communists” while his vision sets up the exact same social structure that communism seems to wind up with – rules for the peasantry but not for the ruling class. Because “some animals are more equal than others”. His vision is anti American, anti freedom, and worst of all, antichrist. Three things traditional (American) conservatives HAVE BEEN up until recent years. There is nothing truly conservative about him.
And honestly, I don’t know if we who are actually conservative and interested in conserving Scripture should relinquish the term and pick something else, or if we should start labeling Wilson something like progressive authoritarian, because he isn’t conservative. He’s a tyrant who is twisting Scripture.
Yeah, the “chucking all labels but Jesus” is definitely a mood. I’m in a similar position of being conservative on paper, but not checking every check box that most would consider “conservative evangelical” now. Finding another church will be…complicated…to say the least. For the first time, I’m actually facing the question of “what can I live with” if a church or denomination checks like 70-80% of my theology “must haves”. It’s a strange place to be, after being in Baptist churches all my life. I know Baptist churches can vary by an extreme margin, so I could in theory keep spinning that roulette, but at this point I’m ready to be done with the denomination and try elsewhere.
Totally agree! We need a new Reformation.
Yeah the fact that schisms occurring in their churches and among their followers is a real fear. It definitely happened when the late Pope Francis spoke in favor of civil marriage for same sex couples and against discrimination against the LGBTQ+ there is this “trad Cath” movement that has been going on in the US church but I don’t think these people realize that trying to be all buddy buddy with the Christian Nationalists won’t get them anywhere and as soon as they are done beating down and purging what they consider the “brown people religions” from the US (Islam, Hinduism, etc) they will probably come after the Mormons and the Catholics next because deep down they don’t consider Catholics “true” Christians and it has always been the case they are mostly pretending to like them and put up with them now out of convenience but I guarantee you they won’t for long and I wish people would understand that. Luckily the new Pope Leo so far seems to but time will tell.
What do predators eat after they’ve killed off all the prey?
Sigh… I wish my one brother in law would understand that who took the whole Trad Cath kool aid. He has been trying to get a career in politics and the type of conservative politicians he wants to work for and try to gain favor from are going to come for him next it is only a matter of time at this rate. Right now, because the politician he worked for didn’t win last election (it was really close being a purple state and all) he has been trying to look for another job in politics including some in DC but has had no such luck and I am suspecting that his crappy and immature attitude he shows toward everyone else in his family including me has something to do with it, but then again such politicians he wants to work for seem to like the men that serve them be manchildren, it also keeps them more dependent on them. He won’t ever get married though unless he does some serious growing up however
Honestly, I think this is just a twist on the true Scotsman fallacy. “
The fallacy goes like this “No true Scotsman would ever put sugar on their porridge, “ says the first speaker. “ My uncle Angus is a true Scotsman, and he puts sugar on his porridge,” says the second speaker. “Well he’s not a true Scotsman then,” counters the first speaker.
Yes, exactly!
A lot of queer Christians have had this experience- trying so hard to follow God, spending so much time trying to understand the bible and how to follow it- and then Christians who haven’t really spent any time wrestling with it, but think they know the “right answer”, will judge us and say we’re not really following God.
Very true!
Coming at this from a different angle: I don’t want to chase women out of the conservative movement!
If you tell women that they have to want to give up the right to vote, work, get an education, be free from abuse, and have consent to sex to be conservative, you aren’t going to get more doormats; you will get more progressives. You will lose those women as well as women who hear that.
Absolutely!
I would love to know how to talk with people who are in these authoritarian churches like Doug Wilson’s. I live near Moscow, Idaho and I have worked with many Christ Church people in my work place. I highly disagree with their views bit at the same time they are still people and I want to know how to engage with them on this issue in a constructive way. That would be a great podcast episode if you haven’t already done it! Thank you bare marriage for all you do!
To me, the root of the issue is those Christian denominations that teach a very binary good-bad world. Every thing, every person, every action, has to go into either the “Satan bin” or the “God bin.” It is a battle for your soul and don’t be lukewarm!
Of course, the real world isn’t so simplistic. People can have good hearts and do bad things, or bad hearts and do good things. People can be Christians and harmful, or atheists and act like Jesus toward others. And everything in between. After all, God grants us free will.
I find that all this labeling and othering and extreme polarization is driven by this binary religious mindset. In fact, I’ve heard Christians state it explicitly: “yes, person X did that terrible thing, but they attend church, so they are forgiven;” or, “don’t let that Muslim kid lend you their lunch money; it’s a trap to pull you away from Jesus.”
None of this tribalism is Biblical, but oh goodness does it feel good to our lizard brains. We are, though, made in divine image and called to so much more.
I felt the urge to share what I wrote in my journal after reading this:
“Lord, I feel so seen and heard, like a fog has been lifted- only for a moment, and I can see that I am not fighting alone. I’m not frustrated alone. I’m not helpless, nor am I screaming and to a void. Others see the degrading twisting and morphing of Your gospel into an idolatry of theological monopolies, the enslavement of the women who greatly outnumber the men in churches- much like the Israelites and the Egyptians- and the Fast Food Faith [useless feel good messages generally from the new testament] being forced down our throats until our wool grows over our eyes, trapping moisture and causing blindness. Also that we don’t question anything but only follow a leader who is willfully unlike you. Lord you see that we are complicit in our failure to follow you, to actually repent and serve the way you call us to.
I don’t know how to keep going, but I cannot stop or even rest – and doubtless others feel the same way. O Lord, may we, through the Son, accept the moments that you give as the Father to become more accurate reflections of you by your work as the Holy Spirit within.”
Yes, that happened to me recently. I’m as conservative as can be on everything Bible, sex, marriage, life, modesty, life purpose, spending of time and money for the kingdom, etc. I’ve spent six years studying what the Bible says about women teaching and leading and concluded that the Bible does not prohibit women. I’ve done a deep dive into Hebrew and Greek and even went to seminary so I could get help in being able to study the Bible correctly. A friend who knows all this, told me this week that because of my view on women in leadership, I am now a “Progressive.” I was so slack-jawed that I had no comeback, just, “Are you serious? Is that what you think or is that what you think others will think?” She said “That’s just the facts, accept it.” Another friend that I shared my views with, very carefully with Scriptural support, said, “Well, you have to be careful because look at all the horrible things that feminism has brought us.” Then she listed all the ills of society. Again–slack-jawed. I said, “You really think all those things are the fault of feminism? No blame anywhere else? And what exactly does the mean, to be careful? Does that mean don’t speak Bible truth?” No answer, just eye rolling.
Oh, and I was a homeschooler who used Wilson’s Canon curriculum!!! I’ve come a long way, baby.
This was excellent. Having survived the CREC cult, I remember Doug often quoting the Reformers saying, “The church reformed and always reforming” implying the church should always be growing and progressing through the ages in their understanding of Scriptures and how to live them. But of course if you speak out or disagree, then you are labeled so they can discredit you. And honestly, I watched dissenters driven out of the church, out of their livelihoods, and out of town. So the cult instills fear of what will happen if you question or disagree. Now that Wilson is on the national stage, how will he and his yes men be able to shut down all the “progressives” in a larger world than their home base?