Next Tuesday, Dr. Camden Morgante’s new book Recovering from Purity Culture launches!
I’m so excited about it, because not only does Dr. Camden walk us through the 5 purity culture myths that harmed so many long-term, but she also provides exercises and help so that we can get to the other side and heal.
And I wrote the foreword to the book!
Next Monday at 8 pm EST, Rebecca and I are hosting Dr. Camden for a super fun FREE webinar (you can sign up here!), but today I asked Dr. Camden to share a little more with us about her thoughts going into writing the book.
So here’s Dr. Camden!
If your faith has been hurt by toxic teachings about sexuality and relationships, you are not alone.
I’ve been there too.
The false promises of purity culture directly contributed to my faith disillusionment and subsequent deconstruction when I found myself single for many years after a devastating break-up in my twenties. I felt like I had upheld my end of the bargain by remaining “pure”, but God had not upheld his. Purity culture had promised me a fairytale marriage—probably to my first love in my late teens or early twenties. When that didn’t happen, I struggled with anger toward God, broken trust in his goodness and sovereignty, and a waning faith.
In the foreword to my book, Recovering from Purity Culture, Sheila writes about how toxic teachings caused struggles in her own faith:
One of the hardest parts of my faith journey, as I’ve delved into the results of our teachings, is coming to terms with the fact that the church sometimes failed us. I know it’s also done tremendous good, and I try to keep that in perspective. But when the harm is this great, and so many who perpetrated it won’t admit it, it’s hard to forgive. It’s hard to feel welcome in the church or embrace it when there don’t seem to be any amends being made.
When I asked my social media audience what prompted their faith deconstruction, the overwhelming majority named purity culture and the Church’s treatment of women (patriarchy) as the reasons. No doubt about it, purity culture can cause trauma to our faith.
But many of us who grew up in purity culture want to hold on to our faith. We want to come to a place of peace and acceptance in our beliefs and identity as Christians.
Fortunately, I believe we can heal from the toxic teachings of purity culture and move forward in our faith.
Here are some suggestions that have been helpful to me and my clients as we try to pick up the pieces post-purity culture:
1. Allow yourself to grieve.
The stages of grief—Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, and Acceptance—apply to a faith transition too. It’s normal to be in denial about the harm of purity culture, feel angry at the Church, try to bargain to avoid a shift in your beliefs, feel depressed and hopeless about the state of your faith, and then finally, accept your purity culture recovery journey. Validate all your feelings, allow yourself to feel them, and work through these stages.
2. Examine your beliefs.
This gives you an opportunity to explore and discern what was biblical versus what was cultural or wrongly interpreted. I am confident you will find out that the toxic beliefs you were taught were not from God at all!
3. Accept doubts and questions.
Asking questions with curiosity, not being afraid to challenge your assumptions, and making space for new answers is part of deconstructing old beliefs. But so is accepting that you will always live with doubts, ambiguity, and not knowing. Make peace with your evolving faith.
4. Find safe community.
Examining your beliefs can often lead to a loss of relationships when you realize your former faith community is no longer a good fit for you. I experienced this myself when my husband and I decided to leave the complementarian church we were members of to transition to another church denomination that supports women pastors. If you’ve left a church, you know the lack of belonging stings. But there are so many of us working to deconstruct the toxic parts of our childhood religion. As you walk this road, find a supportive community to walk with you.
5. Be in relationship with God.
Faith is a relationship with God, not just a set of rules to live by or beliefs to subscribe to. I hope you’ll invite Jesus into this journey with you. He cares about all of you—body, mind, heart, and soul—and he wants you to experience healing and be set free from lies.
Join Dr. Camden and Sheila for a FREE Webinar!
Finding peace in your faith after toxic teachings is an ongoing process. Along the way, we want to speak up about the harm that purity culture has caused and advocate for change in the Church. And we know that unfortunately, the system and leaders may not change.
In Sheila’s foreword to my book, she admits “perhaps I’ve been looking in the wrong place for healing.” Perhaps healing can also be found internally—in asking questions, exploring doubts, accepting our past, grieving our faith shifts, and committing to reconstructing it with a safe community and with God.
As we find peace in our faith journey, I pray that we continue walking toward Jesus, the ultimate source of our healing.
To learn more about healing your faith, sexuality, and relationships from the myths of purity culture, I hope you’ll pick up my book, Recovering from Purity Culture! With over 30 therapy skills, tools, and exercises, my book will help you overcome shame and integrate your mind and body. And you can enjoy the foreword to the book, written by Sheila herself.
Portions of this essay were adapted from Camden Morgante, Recovering from Purity Culture: Dismantle the Myths, Reject Shame-Based Sexuality, and Move Forward in Your Faith (Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 2024).
Thanks, Dr. Camden!
As I look at her points (which are elaborated in much greater detail in her book), the one that I find most resonates with my readers (and you all can correct me if I’m wrong) is to leave room for grief.
There is so much grief.
Even just this week, several women left comments on Dr. Camden’s Wednesday posts talking about how they had done everything right and life hadn’t turned out like they had been promised. Vaginismus, anorgasmia, shame. And feeling such shame that it was hard to talk to a doctor or get help, because you have to pretend everything is great in order to be a witness for Jesus.
It’s all a big mess to unravel.
And when you start doing that unravelling–the grief can be intense.
You missed out on so much of your youth.
I know that as I got older, and I talked to women my age, when women get to their late 30s and 40s that’s when you finally admit what you’ve lost. And what makes it worse is that those years when sex was supposed to be the best (not that it can’t be great later), like in your 20s, you lost out on because of all the incorrect information and threats.
In the next year I’m hoping to take us through some lamentations for our innocence that was lost, our joy that was stolen, our passion that was snuffed out. But I just want to say today: It’s okay to grieve. Often we can’t truly heal unless we allow ourselves to feel the weight of what we lost.
Has it been hard to hold on to your faith after purity culture? What has been your experience? Let me know in the comments!
For the five stages of grief, I really like this visual that I found reposted on Andrew Bauman’s FB page awhile back:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=999124144392327&id=100028842533568
For those who can’t see it and don’t have a FB account, try a different browser (I use Brave on an Android phone).
If you still can’t see it, it’s in two parts, both of which are graphs with time moving horizontally from left to right.
The top part has five long blocks along the time axis. The blocks are different colors, and each block represents one of the five stages. The blocks are positioned from left to right (so earlier time to future time) in the order they’re typically listed: denial, anger, bargaining, anger, acceptance. There are several implications: (1) we finish each stage before moving on to the next, (2) we never go back to an earlier stage, (3) we are in the same stage for every issue we’re grieving, (4) each stage lasts the same amount of time, since the blocks are all the same size, (5) as soon as we finish the current stage, we immediately start the next. (I’m sure there are more implications as well.)
The bottom part has lots of polka dots in the same five colors above and below the time axis, and they’re just dropped randomly all along its length. So as we go through time, we might be feeling any number of the “stages” at the same moment, and we experience the “stages” over and over. (“Stages” is now in quotes because they’re no longer experienced sequentially and only once.)
That visual difference struck me as quite helpful. So many of us actually START in acceptance because of shiny happy face and consider it all joy and Jesus was crucified so you don’t have any reason to complain.
🙄
I’m at different “stages” in dealing with different situations and areas of life, so that’s why I might have any two or three (or all five) of the “stages” occurring at the same time. The path of recovery is more like a web, or a tree with lots of branching, not a straight line from A to B.
I really need to make myself some beaded fringed earrings with five colors arranged randomly, just as a tangible reminder.
We would all like some of those earrings! 😉
This is kind of a general comment on struggles with men.
I have been reading a lot and trying to understand and work through the issues I’ve had growing up. I am a man and I was raised in evangelical circles. I’ve struggled with porn since a very young age. I’ve struggled through a lot of view changes in my life. I used to be very much a part of these conservative circles. It is especially hard to hear terrible stories of the wickedness of people and that this is happening everywhere. It is disgusting that evil exists and that so many are hurt.
I know bare marriage preaches this message of hope, but I do not feel hope. The first time I watched porn, and every other time I degraded woman in the past, was just further confirmation that I had lost my humanity.
The first time my parents found out that I had watched porn, it was devastating to my mom. How could her son have done that. How could he, her innocent son, be so capable of such degrading behavior?
That feeling has never left. I don’t feel like I can have my humanity back. How could I? It feels so permanent. Once a sex addict, always a sex addict. Is there any healing? Is there any ‘back to normalcy’? And then, what if I do heal? What does it matter? People will always see me the same, they’ll all see me for my past. And then, what can I do against all of the people who do harm. I don’t ever want to dehumanize people or label them permanently because that seems so hopeless. I hate dwelling on things in this dark world, but it feels so suffocating sometimes.
I feel like all of this is what I deserve. For the system I’ve contributed to, to the woman I mistreated. What can I do? I’ve lost any sense of hope, any sense of a life. How can my wife trust me? How can my friends trust me? How can I hope for some stability and future? I am sorry. I know the pain I have caused. I know that I cannot reverse the past. I wish I could.
ZD,
What specifically have you been reading? I know I’ve recommended resources to you specifically in the past, so I’m curious what book titles you have read that offer no potential for hope? If you have truly, “lost any sense of hope, any sense of life,” then I strongly suggest you speak with a counselor, ideally one focused on sexual addictions, etc.
As I’ve mentioned before in a reply to you, Andrew Bauman’s website is a great launching point for resources including counselling.
To make it easier, here are a couple direct links.
https://andrewjbauman.com/resource-list/
https://christiancc.org/
I am currently seeing a counselor (we’ve only had like 3 sessions) but have had multiple counselors prior to that which didn’t work out due to a variety of factors, but partially due to the style of counseling not really helping.
I read/listened to this one called ‘The Soul of Shame’ by Curt Thompson.
I also listened to unwanted by Jay Stringer.
I started listening to Out of the Shadows by Patrick J. Carnes.
I’ve also read various articles and resources out there, but can’t remember all of them. I’ve definitely tried reaching out to resources. I will definitely try andrew Bauman
Thanks for sharing. As this site can attest, there have been so many toxic resources and books out there that I usually wonder about that first.
I hope this counselor/type works. The more of your words I have read, I wonder if a trauma-informed/trained therapist would be a good fit for you? And I know of at least one guy who has had a positive experience with EMDR.
No magic cures, but I hope something resonates with you soon. And don’t forget- only one perfect man ever walked the face of this earth. Perfecton isn’t really attainable for our time on earth, so just keep moving forward at a rate that is sustainable for you. You won’t find other perfect men out there to give you hope from a perfection standpoint. But it would be awesome if you could find hope in improvements.
Maybe try making a timeline of where you have been, and take time to celebrate the changes you have already made- changing how you see biblical roles, that you recognize p*rn is bad, times that you go longer without using it, etc. Seemingly little changes add up over time, but it is easy to bog ourselves down looking at how far we have to go still.
ZD, I hear you.
I wonder if the pain and impact of what you chose to engage in is far greater than you thought when you moved toward engaging with porn.
I am replying because you mention the label “sex addict” and it sounds like a cry of despair.
I am glad that you are here, reaching for hope.
I have a few thoughts to offer.
I am a woman’, married to a man for twenty-eight years who used pornography and other sexually explicit practices during our entire marriage.
He first encountered pornography when he was a young boy and it felt exciting and fulfilling to him. He continued to pursue it.
Why do I mention this background?
Because in all of the help that I have accessed over the years, I have found the addiction model to be extremely unhelpful and even damaging.
It doesn’t apply, in my view.
Does porn use change your brain? Sure. But so do chocolate, laughter, sunlight and exercise.
Those are also good things that can be used in unhealthy ways just as sex can be.
My husband, sadly, had chosen to cultivate lust and contempt and lying. It is clear that he has a lot of control via those pathways.
I hoped for a long time that he would chose love and truth and faithfulness. It would have been transformative and constructive for him and for us as a couple.
I say all of this because I believe that you can leave your destructive mindset and habits and become a transformed person.
I know that it is possible because Jesus proved that it is possible, as a human to embody steadfast love and faithfulness.
You get to choose to embody Love.
Also, I think that it would be helpful to have more men who could truly speak to the journey out of that darkness, not with the old tropes of it being a daily struggle, but with new hope that it is possible to fully discard the death and destruction of unhealthy sexual practices.
I hope that you are encouraged to continue to bring your choices into the light and know that you are not condemned.
You are loved
In my reply to ZD, I wanted you to know that I am not dismissing your experience. I also lived with a husband who chose to cultivate the porn relationship rather than try in any way to find freedom. In the end it destroyed the marriage before its beginning. But a man who does desire freedom and is willing to work for it can be helped by the addiction model.
Thank you, viva..I appreciate your thoughts and encouragement.
I really resonate with the idea of that hope of a renewed mind, but I seldom see (anecdotally) the sort of transformation that I would hope for (especially in *Christian* men). This contributed to the sort of depressed attitude I have for the situation as it seems that healing is only finite, and that men will never really have a renewed mind.
The addiction model has in many ways harmed me, but I understand why it’s framed that way. I think it’s fair to say it’s a habit and that my mind had developed negative pathways.
Part of the hurtle is that 1. I seldom see men changed (mind and soul) and 2. Even if I’m able to heal, I’m not sure that anyone would believe me, that anyone would forgive or that there would be any prospect of hope for the things God could use me for.
“2. Even if I’m able to heal, I’m not sure that anyone would believe me, that anyone would forgive or that there would be any prospect of hope for the things God could use me for.”
Just throwing this out there, but I think you should take into consideration the weight of the fact that women here- women who have been used, abused, and deeply hurt by many issues in the church including the enablement, and almost encouragement, of porn abuse- are gathering around you, trying to help you find hope for your future as you talk about trying to heal and find hope again. I think if you could really put that into perspective, it might help you understand that there is hope available for the things you feel are impossible. However, it does come with a heavy dose of work, perseverance, and some set-backs as many of us have found out the hard way, too.
A scripture I turn to often to help is Phil. 4:8 On a good day, I look for things that fulfill those descriptions so on the bad days, when I feel hopeless, I have them ready to think on. “Finally brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable—if there is any moral excellence and if there is anything praiseworthy—dwell on these things.”
Thank you, I appreciate this and this does help, as much as I am prone to wanting to deny it, it is helpful to see everyone’s responses.
ZD, I actually do believe that the addiction model applies here: porn can be an addiction just like a substance can be an addiction, and it can be treated in many of the ways that substance addictions can be treated: behavioral therapies, addressing underlying trauma, participating in recovery groups, and so on. (I work at a substance recovery facility, and I know that some clients seek help with behavioral addictions at the same time they are seeking help with the substances.) I think there are more layers to dealing with the porn and sex addictions, but there is definitely hope for those who want it. The sound of your hopelessness as I read your comment was grievous, and I want you to know, again, there is hope for you to be able to escape this trap. God is a god of renewal — for relationships, for freedom, for trust, for joy.
Dr. Andrew Bauman might be a good resource for you as you seek healing from this wounding. andrewjbauman.com
Sam Jolman wrote a book called The Sex Talk You Never Got, which is really good.
Either of these might be a good place to start. I hope this helps. Blessing to you on your journey.
Hello ZD,
I think that Lisa Johns has already touched on your situation so beautifully and compassionately.
There was one perspective that I wanted to add – and it comes from a comment you made here:
“ The first time I watched porn, and every other time I degraded woman in the past, was just further confirmation that I had lost my humanity.”
Here, it sounds like you felt hopeless and as though you had lost your humanity even before you started watching porn? I think part of your journey is going to need to figure out WHY this was, and WHERE this came from.
What in your past brought you to this place? Toxic church teaching? Childhood experiences? Betrayal? Something else that was significant and left lasting scars? (You don’t need to answer this question for me – but for you.)
Pete Walker who wrote a book on Complex PTSD believes that porn use can show up as one of the coping mechanisms in response to trauma.
Gabor Maté who wrote: “In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts: Close Encounters with Addiction” (many consider this book to be profound) would agree with him.
My point here is not to enable you in what you are doing – it is destructive, as you know.
But it’s possible that the issues that are destroying your life are a coping mechanism for the actual root cause of why you started down this path in the first place. If you can’t get to the root, you are only looking at, and treating, the symptom of the problem (sex addiction) – not the problem itself (the root cause of trauma).
In other words, if you were able to miraculously escape the toxic behaviours that you are engaging in today, you are likely to replace them with another coping mechanism (which could be equally harmful) tomorrow – if the root of why you are needing to “medicate” yourself is untouched and not healed.
I deeply hope that you are able to find direction and help in your path. That you would find connection with someone who has a heart to guide you with both firmness and profound compassion.
Chuck de Groat wrote a new book: “Healing What’s Within: Coming Home to Yourself—and to God—When You’re Wounded, Weary, and Wandering”. I wish for someone with this heart to come into your life to help you.
May YOU discover that God is very ready to talk with you. Much more patient than you could ever imagine. More forgiving than perhaps He should be, and He hasn’t forgotten you.
He is the God who kept a divine appointment at a well to talk with an outcast (the Samaritan woman) – it’s recorded that he found talking with her to be more important than his lunch … and he used a murderer (Paul) to write a large portion of the New Testament.
You ARE seen and heard. The people responding to you on the internet are only a reminder of God’s presence in your life.
Thank you for your thoughtful response, K.
I have examined alot of past things and traumas. There a few things I know I can point to that would explain some of the reasons and experiences that have led me to this place and I do really believe healing begins there.
I have even experienced what you described in that I typically will always just replace one toxic behavior with another. This is coping and there are things I still haven’t worked through..
Part of the problem is that life in the present is not easy and I often don’t see change.
One such thing I have always struggled with is with friends. So many times in my life, I have poured myself and my energy and love into people that I have considered to be friends and many times the result is either abandonment or deep wounds from a lack of caring and commitment. It has led me to be mistrusting in relationships, as I’ve experienced so much hurt from people I trusted before.
Or there are churches that I’ve poured into and am barely noticed or completely forgotten in.
As I mentioned before, I have lost so much hope in a future where God uses me for good. I’ve seen men I’ve looked up to fail, I’ve seen leaders in the church turn out to not be completely honest people. I’ve seen legacies destroyed. How far off am I from that? What miniscule amount of good can I do that actually matters for God?
Would I even have the opportunity to do good? And even if I do good, will it even matter, if people only see what I was or only see the tainted side of me? (Note: I don’t want to be praised, I just want to have my humanity back). Also is it wrong to be want to be seen and loved?
I often think of Paul and am always surprised by how Paul so easily boasted in how changed he was and was not afraid to tell of his past. It seems as if there must have been Christians whose family members had died at the hands of Paul. How dear brothers and sisters had been murdered at the hand of Paul. I cannot imagine the sort of feeling they must have had and to have him be a leader in there church. I sometimes wish this was addressed in scripture, as Paul had to have been rejected at times… Or maybe the Christians were more aware of the absolute power of helping and change.
As I note, I have been going to counseling and am hoping for some change with that. That has been hard though as I’ve shuffled through 4 counselors now and have had a hard time finding a good fit.
If you are not self-righteous and proud, Jesus can and will work with you. He can forgive you as much as He forgave the sinful woman who washed His feet with her tears and dried them with her hair.
Revelation 3:17-18
17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.
Hello again ZD,
I have read your answer and thought about it. There is much to see, perhaps to discuss. (The nature of Paul’s ministry, our responses to rejection, the search for significance …)
But I’m also seeing a bit of a contradiction in what you present.
When this happens, I don’t tell people what it is. Curiosity and self exploration usually beget bigger things than simple “telling” does.
So let’s start with a question …
You’ve used the term “humanity” in both of your emails.
What is your definition of this term? What are you trying to convey?
K,
I worry that I may not be able to be seen as a legitimate human. That my sexual addiction will always haunt me. That I will always be held back by my past. That if people knew my past, I would always be judged, and that there would be nothing I could do to make people see me as legitimate or valuable or just, or good. That I would always been seen in through that lens.
This fear is partly due to my loneliness. I’ve never had many close friends in life and I worry that people will abandon me if they knew me and my past.
Hello again, ZD,
Thank you for taking the time to think through your reply and for getting back to me.
Let me start by saying that I can understand your desire for connection. Your fear of rejection. Of being outcast.
I truly do understand that ache.
I want to share something about myself – because it’s relevant to your reply.
I was married for decades to a psychopath. (That is the term that any professional dealing with my situation eventually defaults to, to describe him.) What makes this man psychopathic is not the fact that he is an axe murderer – but the fact that he is phenomenally and subtly manipulative. He’s the guy who can rip people off emotionally in their face – and they will end up apologize to HIM for what he is going through and how they’ve made it worse for him. He’s strategic. An opportunist. A predator. Cold blooded – and yet adored on a large scale, because people can’t see through him.
I finally left this man. It took years of planning – because I knew that I was going to experience a “scorched earth” policy in how he would turn our mutual friends, the church extended family, the social structures etc against me.
All my fears came true. I’m aware that he went back 25 years (at least) – contacting ANY mutual acquaintance we had to let them know about the “hell” I had put him through. He tells detailed delicious stories of my “spite”, “verbal attacks” and “bitterness” towards him – in the face of his “patience”, “loving” and “long suffering sacrifices” towards me. And, apparently, people find the shock of the tales they are told, and standing in judgement to condemn me for my wickedness VERY satisfying for themselves.
Not ONE SINGLE person has contacted me to hear my side of the story or to validate whether anything they have been told is even true. (Which it isn’t.) I am apparently beyond redemption. Not one person. In more than 3 years.
By the definition which you have given me – I have “lost my humanity”. And yet, I am actually not even guilty of the actions that “lost it” for me.
I can’t see from your comments what you would do in my situation. It seems to be a bit of a worst case scenario for you.
(Please note the only reason I’m sharing my story is because it’s mine to tell. It’s not the worst or grossest injustice that you will find amongst the people who comment here.)
BUT IT HURTS. Very badly. It crushes your spirit and leaves you with disorientation in who you are and what to make of the people around you.
And yet. Here I am talking to someone on the Internet. Because I can sense their distress, and may have some thoughts to offer them.
ZD, are you willing to walk forward? Willing to move though the pain and uncertainty of the fact that the people around you are actually outside of your control? Are you willing to live in a world where you know that keeping the good opinion of others can be as meaningless as trying to catch the wind?
Are you willing to move forward into a space where you find yourself and where you deal honestly with who you see there. Where your decisions are authentic to you – not dependant on the opinions surrounding you?
We can carry on talking. I can share some things that have been helpful to me.
But I will never be able to give you the secret to controlling public opinion to protect yourself.
Healing is hard. But it’s done one step, one day, one decision and one moment at a time …. do you want to choose authentic humanity and life?
K,
This is in response to your last message. For some reason I can’t reply directly to that message.
I really do appreciate your willingness to share this. I’m really sorry about what happened to you. Although I cannot fathom how much pain and frustration this has caused you, I do know loneliness and being unheard (to a much lesser extent) and at least to me, that is the worst sort of pain. I admire your hopefulness and perseverance in the midst of all of this.
In answer to the general idea of your questions, I think that I am willing. I do want authentic humanity. I know that it is hard and I think that is part of what holds me back.
This is not meant to be an excuse, but I believe I struggle with OCD (I’m not officially diagnosed), but there are many signs. In other words, when a negative idea pops into my brain, it is very difficult for me to let it go. I fixate on things and some of that manifests in a shame feeling that won’t go away until I’ve found some way of absolving myself from it. It is difficult. I’ve had a really hard time with church. I’ve been hurt by the church (nothing insane), but I think it partly holds me back from finding good community or someone to talk to about it (besides my wife).
I am blessed to have a wife who is so gentle and forgiving. I know that at my worst, I am a miserable person. I know the pain that I’ve caused and it lives with me. I want to do better.
One thought I’ve been having a lot. I often compare myself to really bad people. I do this I think because of my fixation on shame and what I’ve done which is bad. At the worst times in my sexual addiction, I’ve know the complete selfishness, disassociation and disregard for others I’ve had. Not necessarily in addiction, but other low times, I have manipulated people to get what I want, to get the results I want. I am afraid of myself sometimes. I think alot of this is in my head, but it feels so dark sometimes.
It makes me sad that there are really bad people (ie psychopaths) I want to be able to see the good in every person and I hate the idea that someone could be so far from grace, that there would be no hope for someone. That is partially why I am so critical of myself, because I do see so many times where it doesn’t end well for all people involved and I want a better ending.
Thank you for helping me to see better that hard things can sometimes lead to some sense of hope. I don’t know what that looks like though.
Hello ZD,
I am going to reply to you properly, I ended up with some “life” things happening. I’m going to need another day or two before I can change lanes and get back to you properly.
I thought you should know that you weren’t ghosted.
Hi K,
Thank you for letting me know this. I appreciate it.
I was thinking of more to add on. But was reading a couple other stories and one thing I also struggle with is the idea that I could be an ‘unsafe’ person. Like I’m a danger to people… I think that contributes to the feeling of isolation. I understand the designation though and why woman would feel unsafe, but it does feel isolating and scary.
Hi ZD,
I’ve thought about your situation a LOT. Sometimes I think I know what to say and other times, I really don’t. And your last comment kind of nails the dissonance.
In an earlier response to you I mentioned that you need a counsellor who is full of compassion – but also firm.
To put it another way – (again, I’ll use myself as an example so it doesn’t sound judgemental) … I was abused as a kid. Quite badly. So I’m a victim.
I have kids. I have to make conscious choices about how to respond to them or I could abuse them.
In other words – I can be both a victim AND a perpetrator. It’s not an either or.
I see so much wrapped up in your situation – toxic shame, I suspect that you’ve dissociated into living in your mind and you’re not properly living in your body, in the reality of the moment … these things need to be addressed. You are hurting and you need to heal.
But you are also encouraging your wife to relate to you in a co-dependant way – because you appreciate her support and kindness, but she doesn’t know it all. Her support is enabling you – and she’s not even aware of what she is enabling.
I say the following without trying to heap shame and guilt on you but more as a reality statement – this is a form of betrayal.
If you are living in a way where you cannot be honest and open, then you aren’t really a “safe” person.
But what I have tried to communicate, is that it doesn’t make you “trash” either.
Far too much Christian language is about Jesus as our “saviour”. I don’t believe that is the primary focus of scripture. Christ cane to redeem. Not just “save”.
We were created in the image of God – which means we would love, encourage and support one another and rejoice in the good of one another and feel at peace and be fulfilled in the presence of beautiful things (like an abundant, overflowing, gorgeous garden planted by the hand of God). The fall lost all of that. We turned to other things and other pleasures. We became more invested in ourselves than in the fullness of the world and people around us.
Christianity above all, should be a return to love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, gentleness faithfulness and self control.
If what I am writing seems pertinent to you or resonates with you at all, please consider looking up Chuck de Groats book “Healing What’s Within” … https://www.amazon.com/Healing-Whats-Within-Yourself-Wandering-ebook/dp/B0CXFB5278?ref_=ast_author_mpb
Feeling overwhelmed, alone and at fault is not the end – it’s not time to give up. It’s the beginning.
And few people are more compassionate, grounded and on point, in my experience, than Dr. de Groat.
Facing reality is hard. But I’d like to remind you of the Samaritan woman at the well. Jesus met with her and started asking her questions. He asked her to bring her husband to see him. She changed the subject and started talking theology instead.
So Jesus told her what her situation was. How many men there had been and what her situation was now … (I’m just relating the story at face value…)
And then she went back and told an entire village about the encounter … and says the most astonishing words “Come and see the man who TOLD ME EVERYTHING I HAD EVER DONE …”
She had shame. She didn’t want to “go there” in the conversation with Christ. Jesus wasn’t “getting in her face” when he addressed her past – he RELIEVED HER OF THE BURDEN OF HAVING TO TELL HIM who she was. He already knew – and talking with her was a divine appointment for him that day. More important than his lunch.
ZD, you are more precious than you know. Your sins are also more serious than you would like to admit.
The heart of God can hold both of those truths and still offer you a future of grace and real answers.
THAT is the gospel.
As I’ve said before, I’m just a random person on the internet. A pale shadow of the one who made us all. If I can see you, He most certainly can. And he knows it all already.
K,
You mentioned that if I’m not open and honest, then I’m not a ‘safe’ person. I should say that I have been open to a lot of people in my inner circle (friends, wife, dad) and I have not held back in terms of being vulnerable and honest. It may be that these people have enabled me as you stated. I’m unsure, it feels like people I’ve told have either have been super gentle about my issues or they’ve been on the opposite end with judgement and punishment (ie with my mom).
This is in no way, an excuse for my behavior though, but I hope it is indication that I’m trying.
That being said, I have really struggled with my faith recently. Church hurt, many changing beliefs, assumptions. I was steeped in some pretty fundamentalist teachings, headed towards being a pretty ignorant manly man. That changed with COVID and ever since then I’ve grasped at finding community and usually find nothing real and so as you said, I’ve somewhat disassociated from reality. I live in my brain and the internet 90% of the time and I know that is not healthy or going anywhere for me.
Don’t get me wrong, I have my surface level friends, I just don’t have many people I trust to like… Actually do life with. Through thick and thin sorts of people and that sucks just in general.
I’m having trouble seeing that Jesus changes and heals people. That is one reason I struggle with hope. Part of that is distrust. I don’t trust when some person comes up and says ‘my life is changed because of Jesus!’. I’m skeptical. Likely because I’ve been hurt and lied to in the past by Christians.
I know Christians aren’t perfect, but it’s definitely difficult to see where God moves right now. I want to tell you that you do give me hope. You’ve given me a lot of time and you’ve listened, but you’ve also been honest and I appreciate that. Like a lot.
Already borrowed that book..I’m on vacation next week so I will be listening on the plane! Thank you
Hi ZD,
Thank you for your reply.
I do want to apologize for my own misconception about your honesty towards your wife – and my resulting challenge to you. I had interpreted a comment you had made at the beginning as though she didn’t know. (This here: “I’ve lost any sense of hope, any sense of a life. How can my wife trust me? How can my friends trust me?“)
And I went further than what you had said, which was inappropriate – and again, I am sorry for that and for taking you to task over it.
If you have been honest with your wife then I do applaud you for it and I have absolutely no reason to question how she is choosing to support you. I am fully willing to respect her forgiveness, honour her for her gentleness, and defer to her judgement!!
Thank you for explaining that to me! I have no desire to judge where no judgement is warranted!!
I truly hope that Dr. DeGroat’s book will be inviting and healing for you – and give you hope and encouragement to push towards God, and give you a sense of trust to do so after your disappointments.
I truly do wish you well!!
I will keep visiting here if you find it encouraging or helpful.
Your soul is very much alive!! It feels bruised – but it is your very humanity that longs for connection.
You were created in the image of God. One of the basic tenets of Christianity is that God is a trinity.
He lives in union and communion – and has done so from eternity past.
You were created for relationships too. The fact that you don’t feel connected and it causes you pain, means that you are functioning.
Not broken.
K,
You’re good! I don’t take any offense, I just wanted to clarify.
I understand the connection. When I said that that thing about ‘trust’ or lack thereof, I was more so meaning the general idea of how porn and lust affects my wife and I’s marriage… Like the trust has already been broken in many ways. Plus it hasn’t been easy lately and I’m depressed and feeling hopeless on top of it so I feel like I’m just dragging us down.
Again, thank you for your comments and thoughtfulness
Hi ZD,
Thank you for your grace about my challenging you unnecessarily. Grace is always precious and I do appreciate that you extended it so much! Thank you.
I have been thinking about you. You were going to be on vacation and taking some time to delve into Dr. DeGroat’s book.
I have been hoping that you have found some nuggets to encourage you and that you can connect with.
I just wanted to drop you a note to say that you are wished good, healthy, positive things!
Hi K,
To be honest, I’ve been better.
I have been feeling pretty hopeless lately in general. There is some depression sprinkled in there.
I am pretty sure I have OCD of some form and I fixate on things which usually exacerbate the hopelessness feelings. I am seeing a counselor but that has been a struggle too.
Sorry not much good news. I did start the book, but didn’t get very far… Vacation had less free time that I was hoping. I need more time for meditation….
It just feels like I’m living out the consequences of my sin and that’s how things should be. Its hard to imagine that I could ever live a normal life, with like a decent community and friends.
I’m a guy who sees a lot of shame in your post, which is a natural feeling when your eyes open to hurt and pain we’ve caused. You ask What can I do? and say you’ve lost hope, and I’d urge you to find resources that address that. I’ve been (slowly) reading Andrew Bauman’s Stumbling Toward Wholeness which is framed around the parable of the prodigal son, and he said says guilt is “I made a mistake” while shame says “I am a mistake” and that’s a huge difference! Moving from shame to guilt to conviction is tough work as I’m learning too.
There is one group online for men struggling with and overcoming porn called Live Free by Carl Thomas. He’s been on here and Sheila has been on with him and you can find out more and subscribe at livefree.app or in their app. There’s a lot there and if you join, let me know, and maybe we can continue the convo over there.
Have you watched the episode with Jay Stringer? Your situation isn’t hopeless, but it is a lot of work. I hope you find a motivation.
Although I didn’t suffer from purity culture, I can relate to this feeling: “When that didn’t happen, I struggled with anger toward God, broken trust in his goodness and sovereignty, and a waning faith.” For me, it was due to following the instructions for wives married to unbelievers: win him without a word, through extra good submission, so good that it is sanctifying. I tried to image how that could work, and I came up with the Princess Bride story of the “stable boy” always saying to “Buttercup,” “As you wish,” whenever she demanded something, but he said it so lovingly, that eventually she realized that what he was really saying, was, “I love you.” Then their relationship transformed, and they kissed, and it was the most beautiful kiss that had ever happened between a man and a woman before.
When my unbelieving husband realized I loved him, he would become a believer, and then he would finally be in his role, too: the role of loving me so much that he would even lay down his very life for me, and if that was not necessary, then he would certainly be trying to sacrifice himself for me in small ways every day, although of course I would be so lovingly submissive, voluntarily and from the heart, that it wouldn’t matter. In short, after I threw myself at his feet enough times, he would finally throw himself at my feet, too. Then our sacred sex would be the very picture of Jesus and His bride, the church.
It would be magical and mystical: as above, so below. Not just typological. Not just the Hebrew typology of faithfulness: loving a husband more than other men, loving God more than idols. No, it was ontological and metphysical. So much so that it would be almost blasphemous not to obey the instructions for husbands and wives. It would be like insulting the microcosm of Jesus and His bride, the church. It would be like spitting on the Mini Me Godhead on earth.
Everything in 1 Corinthians, Ephesians and Colossians has the theme of mystical union. Most of it is a “nice to do” but not a “have to do.” The only ethical imperatives are the household codes. The household codes are “have to do” things. Everything else is mysticism and grace, but not the household codes. Those are ethical, even stoic. Those are virtues, and practicing them is not optional. They are a must.
Meanwhile, the Calvinist God of Romans 9, with his complete sovereignty, would make it happen. He would use His irresistable grace to convert my husband, eventually. If not, then maybe He would cause my husband to leave me. Years went by, and my husband neither converted nor left me. I began to realize that I had been spoiling and feeding a monster and growing it larger and larger. I began struggling not to hate my monster whom I had been coddling so much for so long.
I began to feel like I can do what’s difficult, but I can’t do what’s impossible. I started to wonder why I have to try to hard, when highly churched people tell me all the time that salvation is not by my own effort, that nobody may boast. This is when I started to think “bad attitude” thoughts and to think sarcastically that after all, if I’m so weak and silly that I must be led, and I can’t do anything by my own effort and instead must be passive while grace does all the work…then after all it would be okay to collapse, to break down, to become emotional…as opposed to having enough self-regulation for the whole family, day in and day out, to compensate for their lack thereof at any time and in any way.
Then I felt awful, repented, and redoubled my efforts to try again. I would repent and try again after being raged at and after feeling hateful and resentful and seething. Then I would repent and pray. I would forgive my husband. I would try again.
But the whole system of false belief crashed down like a house of cards, cards made of plywood, that is, crushing me under the rubble.
Eventually I figured out how to dump Paul and return to my first love, Jesus, who the highly churched people had been leading me away from, ever since I began to talk to them some years after becoming converted. I know most will not want to do this, but I have done it, and I will never go back. No more Calvinist God from Romans 9. No more New Testament household codes. Just following Jesus and learning to read the Old Testament and appreciate it as the greatest story ever told. And it is more wonderful over time.
I’m not a Calvinist (nor was raised one) but I can definitely relate as I had my era in early adulthood.
I wonder, you mentioned the old testament as being what you read to come closer to Jesus. Do you not trust the New testament apostles teachings at all?
The Bible is a story that invites us to get to know Jesus, to have a relationship with Him, and to follow Him. The Old Testament points forward to Jesus. The epistles point backward to Jesus. The Gospels point directly to the words and deeds of Jesus so we can get to know His perfect example and learn to follow His example as disciples of Him.
Jesus said that the messenger is not better than the one who sent him. “Apostle” means “messenger.” The Pauline epistles should be filtered through Jesus. The modern evangelical churches preach from Pauline epistles 13 times more often than from Gospels, on average. There are 35,000 different Protestant denominations in the world today. Most of the splits and splinters have been caused by differing interpretations of Pauline epistles. In contrast, there are only eight different ways of interpreting the Sermon on the Mount.
Jesus alluded to the Old Testament frequently in the Gospels, and learning to understand the Old Testament enables a richer understanding of Jesus. Jesus said three times in the Gospels to keep the commandments, and in the Great Commission, He said to go and teach the nations to obey all things whatsoever He had commanded. The prophet Jeremiah had looked ahead to the New Covenant as a time when God would write His commandments on the hearts of believers.
Before Constantine, the early gentile churches kept the portion of the Torah that applied to sojourners in Israel. Sojourners in Israel did not need to be circumcised, but they had to keep the ten commandments, and they had to avoid eating meat sacrificed to idols. They didn’t need to obey over 600 regulations. If they wanted to go beyond the outer court of the gentiles into the temple, the males had to be circumcised. If they wanted to share the Passover meal, the males had to be circumcised.
Constantine outlawed all Jewish customs throughout his empire. At this time the Pauline epistles became useful to him because they allowed him to find support for changing Saturday worship to Sunday worship. Previously the gentile churches had kept the Sabbath. The Pauline epistles likewise allowed Constantine to change Passover observance to Easter observance. Previously the gentile churches had kept Passover.
During the Reformation, Calvin and Luther put passages from Galatians and Romans on a pedestal above the rest of the Bible. Meanwhile Calvin persecuted Servetus who thought Jesus should be recognized as the greater master. Luther arranged with the Catholic church to persecute the followers of Carlstadt, who likewise privileged the Gospels above the epistles.
Today’s American evangelical seminaries teach that only Paul speaks to gentiles, while Jesus’ words in the Gospels only pertained to the Jews who were under the law. This is part of their theology of Dispensationalism. They learn that gentiles are in the dispensation of grace, while Jews were under a different dispensation of law.
Dispensationalism eerily parallels one of the very first heresies, Marcionism, which was Paul-onlyism. Marcion’s scriptures consisted only of seven letters written by Paul, plus a truncated version of Luke’s Gospel.
The original Jerusalem mother church, the Ebionites, only read the Old Testament plus a Hebrew version of Matthew’s gospel.
You can read more about all of these issues at https://jesuswordsonly.org/
Interesting. I am not a dispensationalist, and I’m not sure all dispensationalist believe that the gospel of Paul is *only* to the gentiles, but Paul does specifically reference that he is a messenger to the gentiles. Although that doesn’t mean everything He writes is to the gentiles. I don’t know many people who would say the letters of Paul are only for the gentiles… But maybe I am wrong.
I do think Jesus is often ignored, but part of issue is that some biblical critics don’t believe Paul and Jesus were preaching the same message. I believe they were, just that Paul had a way of translating what was going on with Jesus.
Interesting though, I will read more into it