All marriage speakers and bloggers get push back for what they say. But I’m not sure everyone realizes what women go through.
Today I’d like to share some of the comments and words that are hurled at me, female bloggers like me, and my daughters when we speak up for healthy marriages and for healthy sex lives and for a healthy view of relationships. These comments are very different from what most men get, and so I thought it may be instructive to share some.
WARNING: These are graphic and disturbing. But I think the abuse of women online, and the culture of the broader Christian community which enables this, is important to talk about. And I can’t talk about it properly unless you see the extent of the problem. If you find sexual insults and misogyny triggering, then please don’t read this. I normally wouldn’t publish these things; I tend to delete them immediately so no one ever sees. But I do think it’s important occasionally to have a talk about these bigger issues going on. However, if this discussion isn’t for you, feel free to tune out today!
For instance, one day last month this was the first email that greeted me when I checked my inbox that morning:
I get sexually graphic stuff a lot.
Likely because I write about sex, I’m always getting emails and comments that are quite vile and disgusting. They never make it through on the public platform, obviously, and frequently the spam filter catches them so I don’t even see them.
But it’s not just me. Jessica Harris, who writes about recovering from a porn addiction at A Beggar’s Daughter, sent me this one:
Chris, who from the Honeycomb and Spice community where Christian wives can talk about sex, received this one shortly after she put her picture up on the blog:
Okay so u are not a bleach blond bimbo with big fake boobs. But you look great. I would rather be with someone that is for real. You could snuggle up to me anytime.
We need to be aware of the disgusting, abusive comments that women in ministry receive online. Warning: graphic language.
And then there’s my daughter Katie.
She has a YouTube channel, and when she made a video about why the whole “Men Prefer Debt Free Virgins without Tattoos” was so off-base (mostly because all of those things refer to actions you did in the past, and are based on outward appearances, rather than current, inward character), she was subjected to thousands upon thousands (and I’m not kidding) comments that were horrendously hateful and often sexual in nature. She was asked, “How many guys have you sucked?” over and over. That seemed to be a theme–another one said, “She’s just mad because she got spit roasted by black d***s in college and knows she’s no decent Christian white mans first choice for marriage.”
She stopped checking comments, and some of my assistants did it for a few weeks, so she never saw them. And my assistants just deleted them. But we took some screen shots of some specially bad ones before we deleted them:
I don’t keep the stuff that shows up on this blog directed at me, so I don’t have the screen shots, but I took a bunch of screen shots of the stuff insulting Katie because, as a mom, I was just so incensed. But I get a lot, too.
And it’s not just bloggers. Let’s remember that Paige Patterson, one of the bastions of the conservative resurgence in the SBC, joked from the pulpit about how built a 16-year-old girl was. SBC Pastor Wade Burleson recently documented how Dr. Joshua Dara, a Dean at Louisiana College (SBC affiliated), spoke at the chapel on Valentine’s Day of this year saying that the reason that women weren’t getting dates is that they weren’t “mowing their lawns” (a euphemism for shaving their pubic hair). When women are sexualized in sermons and in chapels, there really is no safe space for us anymore.
Often in the comments people express sympathy for our husbands or put down our husbands.
This normally takes place when I write a post standing up for women, saying that God’s ideal is for a man and a woman to live in a truly intimate relationship, not one where the man dominates. When my husband wrote on this blog a while back that he thought men who didn’t want their wives to be their partners and teammates and instead just wanted to dominate them were missing out on something and were rather pathetic, commenters said (and I’m sorry if this is too graphic) “when are you going to stop taking it up the butt?” (except that they said it even worse than that.)
On Katie’s channel, here’s an adult male criticizing her husband. (I’m sorry the screen shot is so hard to read; I originally took these just for me for posterity, and wasn’t thinking about sharing them, or I would have saved them in another format):
In case it’s hard to read on mobile:
Please don’t call yourself a Christian who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ yet you are an absolute hostile opposition to everything that the word says concerning a woman. I feel so sorry for David.
These comments are also mostly from those who would call themselves Christians.
It is not like it is only weird, gross dudes in the internet land. No, it is weird gross dudes in the internet land who claim Christ and who use “Christianese.”
For mobile users:I don’t believe you’re saved by Christ. you don’t possess one bit of repenting attitude. Keep w*&^&*(* yourself b*&^&.
I love this one where the commenter insults a teenage girl–and then gives a church recommendation. Not exactly a good plug for Calvary Chapel, is it?
For mobile users:
You are a whitewashed tomb…a hysterical shrill jezebel…your vocal intensity shows what major emotional feminist defects you have
What makes it doubly awful is that so many of the vile comments weren’t even addressed to Katie. They were in reply to teenage girls who had commented about how they had had messed up pasts, but had found Jesus and now were so at peace. Somehow these adult men (many profile pics looked in their 40s) thought it was okay to call these girls horrible names and tell them they were going to hell because they hadn’t “kept their legs closed” but had “given it to any *&* who walked by.”
And then, of course, they would quote Bible verses about how fornicators were going to hell. To reiterate, we deleted all of these comments and the girls never saw them (nor did Katie, really). But they were there.
But, wait! The gross comments get worse, because then they’re paired with the thought that we women don’t have a right to speak at all.
And this is really what I want people, and especially pastors and male authors and bloggers, to understand. Many of these horrible comments are paired with Bible verses also telling us that women should be silent, that women shouldn’t speak, and that we are disobeying God. Men may deal with insults or with people who think they’re wrong; but they don’t deal with people saying, “you have no right to say anything, you *&^*”. They call us jezebels, saying that women are responsible for all the ills in the world.
For mobile users:
- Poster child of the Jezebel spirit!!!!
- This woman is in rebellion against God’s Word…she has a problem with God and she’s following in the foot steps of the first rebellious woman, EVE, and we see where that lead [sic] the human race!
Frequently I’ll have people who just simply leave a Bible verse telling us to shut up, like this one that does nothing except quote 1 Corinthians 14:34-35.
I tell all of this not really to get sympathy, because trust me, my family and I can handle it. And we had a great time with that first email when it came in. I texted it to everyone on a group text and the gifs that everyone sent back were awesome!
But there are three important points I want to make.
1. I want men who write blogs and books to understand what it is like to be a woman who talks about marriage and sex.
I know that all of us are under tremendous pressure. But there is a unique pressure on women that I don’t think men necessarily understand. I sometimes wish that some of the male authors would moderate my comments just for a week and see the personal, sexual attacks that come in, especially those paired with Bible verses. Perhaps then some men would understand how their teaching that women should stay silent and simply follow their husbands enables and feeds this kind of mentality in debased men.
If you’re going to teach that women should rest under a man’s authority and should defer to men, please understand that you embolden commenters like these. We women have to deal with the fallout of your doctrine. You may believe that doctrine, and also think that these commenters are beyond the pale and don’t represent Christ at all. But I’d ask you to please at least have empathy for those of us who are the recipients of the hate that is stoked from that doctrine.
Men in ministry:
This is what women in ministry have to deal with. Is your doctrine protecting women in their quest to serve Christ, or worsening the issue?
2. I want male pastors and teachers to understand how hurtful it is to have people tell you that you have no right to speak simply because you’re a woman.
All male pastors and bloggers, think back to the sermon or book or blog post that you’re the most proud of. Think about how much you laboured and prayed over that. Think about how much you felt that God was in that message.
Now imagine if, after you had delivered it, you had people tell you that you had no right to speak any of it simply because you’re a man. Imagine that they were all saying,
- “your opinion doesn’t matter because God made you wrong.”
- “You aren’t in the image of God as much as these leaders, so you shouldn’t speak.” (as Southern Baptist Theological Seminary professor Bruce Ware holds about women’s inferior image)
- “I am closer to God than you are because my genitals are different than yours.”
This happens every single time I write an epic blog post that attempts to get at Jesus’ heart towards women. It happened when I wrote about men and lust. When I wrote about Love & Respect. When I wrote about Desiring God’s article that husbands need to get their wives ready for Jesus. When I write about submission. I get these emails telling me to “shut up.”
3. I want pastors and bloggers and authors to ask yourself, “If men sat under my teaching for a year, would they know explicitly that I thought such attitudes and behaviours were wrong?”
This was really the point of the Twitter thread that I wrote when I was incensed about the reaction to Katie’s video. I started it off this way:
Thread:
A 21-year-old woman made an awesome video combatting legalism & telling girls that God values them.
In response, an army of middle aged men attacked her, calling her a sl@t, wh@re, & Jezebel all in the name of Jesus, often quoting Bible verses. This is that story.
— SheilaGregoire (@sheilagregoire) August 10, 2018
But it was the end that was really important.
Let me reiterate: this is a group of very young girls and women who are seeking Jesus. Katie is pointing them to Jesus. And middle-aged supposedly Christian men think it’s okay to call them sl@ts, wh@res, & b*tches. Middle aged men seem to think that this is evangelism. — SheilaGregoire (@sheilagregoire) August 10, 2018
They are going to churches where the context of verses like 1 Timothy 2:11-15 and 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is never discussed, so that these men feel empowered to say “women are more easily deceived”, “women should stay silent”, and “women should shut up.” — SheilaGregoire (@sheilagregoire) August 10, 2018
So pastors, let me be clear: If you are not administering this chemotherapy & fighting back against these attitudes, if you are not actively calling them out—then you are allowing that cancer to grow. Even if you do not hold these horrible beliefs, they are in your church. — SheilaGregoire (@sheilagregoire) August 10, 2018
Ask yourself: “If a person sat in my pews for a year, would they know that God values women? Would they know that women’s opinions matter? Would they know that calling women names is ungodly—especially if those names have sexual overtones?” — SheilaGregoire (@sheilagregoire) August 10, 2018
Because they will only know these things if you explicitly teach them. Even then, evil men will likely reject the Truth. But at least then their actions will not be on your head. Right now, they are. And as a mom, I am incensed. As a Christian, I am brokenhearted and lamenting. — SheilaGregoire (@sheilagregoire) August 10, 2018
But as a woman, I believe a sleeping giant has awakened. Women are looking at the church, with all the #churchtoo stories & coverups, and how women are treated like second class citizens. And the dam is breaking. God is pouring out His Spirit, and His daughters will prophesy. — SheilaGregoire (@sheilagregoire) August 10, 2018
There is so much hate in the world right now, and I don’t know if many men realize how much is directed at women.
If you’re a good guy, you likely assume that most guys are, too, and that this is just a loony fringe. But I think it’s far more widespread that most people realize. The comments are endless and relentless.
Seriously, if you want to see the extent of this vileness that is sitting in your pews, just walk in the shoes of a Christian online female sometime who says anything remotely controversial about women being made fully in the image of God and God loving women. Just see what comes out of the woodwork.
What Beth Moore has to put up with just because she wants to preach Jesus is beyond the pale. What Julie Roys, who uncovered the corruption at Moody and at Harvest Bible Chapel, has been subjected to is terrible, too. It needs to stop.
As I’m going to talk about in my podcast next week, this year I’ve had a big revelation that I’ve been very, very naive.
Because I’m married to a great guy, and our male friends are great guys, and my sons-in-law are great guys, and my pastor is a great guy, I often assume that other people are generally well-meaning, too. That’s why, when I wrote up the report on Love & Respect and sent it in to Focus on the Family, I genuinely thought they’d care. I thought that women’s voices would matter to them. I thought that the problem was just that they had been ignorant of how the book was being abused (and how the message itself was damaging and faulty), and I thought that if I just pointed it out, they’d see the issues.
But instead they refused to answer my emails, and answered other readers that wrote in and told them that they disagreed with me. Apparently they thought it was okay to only refer to sex as being about man’s physical release, and not ever talk about sex as being for women’s pleasure or being about intimacy. They thought it was okay to tell a woman she must not speak up even if her husband is “drinking or straying.” They thought it was okay to tell a woman married to a physically abusive man that she must learn not to react to his anger and not to trigger his anger.
And then I saw this tweet by Beth Moore:
Then I realized it was not over Scripture at all. It was over sin. It was over power. It was over misogyny. Sexism. It was about arrogance. About protecting systems. It involved covering abuses & misuses of power. Shepherds guarding other shepherds instead of guarding the sheep.
— Beth Moore (@BethMooreLPM) May 11, 2019
I am calling on organizations to be places that protect women. I am calling on pastors and male bloggers and authors to stand with women and stand against this kind of misogyny, for there is no other word for it.
As I have been watching the fallout from Beth’s tweets, and watching Focus on the Family’s response to all of your stories on Love & Respect, I am getting discouraged and incensed all at the same time.
Jesus loves me. Jesus loves women. Jesus has given women a voice. Jesus elevated women. When men say these horrid things, especially in Jesus’ name, well, I would hate to be them on judgment day.
So gross. So damaging. So UNLIKE Jesus. I’m sorry you and Katie and all of the other bloggers are abused in this way. Thank you for your perseverance and ministry.
Thank you, Megan.
Sheila, Have you ever read anything from Dr Raymond Force of Hitting Home Ministry? He calls out men all the time on how to be Christ like in their marriages. Today I was reading one and the comments were awful. I think that truth brings out the abusers in full force. I am so sorry that you have to go through this. Your ministry has been a lifeline for me.
I haven’t read him, no. I’ll go Google him! And you’re likely right. Truth brings out abusers. I’m so glad that the blog has helped you!
Thank You!!!
From my wife and I, thank you so much for staying strong and bearing this cross! Satan truly works hardest on those doing Gods work.
Thanks for everything you do! Stay strong.
Why aren’t you publishing the ugly responses with their identification information?
Thank you for standing up ❤️
Someone on Twitter, who wants to remain anonymous, shared this story with me:
I blog, but primarily I’m an author, and I write about women in ministry.
Well, two years after my book was released, my whole world fell apart. My husband had a devastating affair, he moved out and my heart was crushed into a million pieces.
When the social media hecklers found out, they came for me publicly and used my failed marriage as a shooting point to attempt to publicly shame and humiliate me. They would just pop up in comments. “Didn’t your husband literally have sex with another woman? You’re pathetic and no one should follow your ministry….”, etc. I had to actually deactivate my personal fb page (it’s still down…. I only have my public figure page right now), and I literally tried to hide to wait out the storm. Sadly most of the mean things were not said by men, but by women! That hurt more.
Since then God has done a tremendous miracle in my marriage, and I’m sure one day it will be the testimony of the ages. But yeah, you’re right. Female bloggers have to put up with stuff that our male counterparts never would. It’s sad but it’s true.
I know you didn’t write this post to receive reassurance or praise because you are humble and strong and are truly doing God’s work in the lives of women (and the good men who read your blog), but I have to give you some praise anyway.
Your blog and your books have been the single biggest game changer to healing some misconceptions and hurt that had been in my thoughts for a long time. I have been married almost 9 years and in the past 18 months or so since I found your blog, my wonderful husband and I have experienced deeper levels of intimacy–emotionally, spiritually, and physically–than we ever have before. You put words to thoughts I had mulled around for years, wondering how these teachings could be true and confused at how God could be who I knew Him to be if he really designed sex in the way these (misguided and awful) books and sermons say.
Thank you for what you do in spite of the awful and vile words you receive as a result. I know there are many others like me who have been so amazingly impacted by your work. I have truly come to understand my value and worth as a woman in God’s eyes because of this blog and both my husband and I reap the benefits of that understanding.
Also, I would be super interested in reading a follow-up post on the context of those misused verses about women being more easily deceived and women being silent. I have always been a little confused by those verses and I think obviously many others are too. I think I will have to research those verses myself today after reading this post.
Thank you for who you are, your bravery, and your commitment to speaking the TRUTH to us who really need it.
Thank you so much, Jess! That means so much to me. I really appreciate it. And I’m so glad to hear that your marriage is doing better! This is what I wish people would understand–when women are able to embrace their true worth in Christ, it’s easier to embrace their husbands! When we feel like we are somehow inferior, how are we supposed to be intimate? It makes no sense.
If you want to do some research, the best place to go (with the most easy-to-understand but very well-researched articles) is Marg Mowczko. She’s got great stuff! Just browse the sidebar for all of her categories.
Thanks Sheila! I got on her page just now and it looks so good! I’m trying to read it now, but I have 4 kids 6 and under and they are not cooperating. 🙂 I am excited to read more later!
I’m so sorry. This is completely unacceptable. Thank you for persevering. And thank you for giving me hope- because I have finally found (after leaving spiritually abusive churches) a church where the pastors are not afraid to call out this kind of treatment of women. As I read the post, I realized that my pastors truly are the good guys. And I think I know why- the thing they work at the most is humility towards God and he molds them and guides them and they openly repent when they miss the mark. It’s so refreshing!
That’s AWESOME! But isn’t it also sad that that is refreshing? I mean, it should be NORMAL, not something that we say, “finally, at last!”
Some of those comments are trolls. I understand why you’d post them so everyone can be made aware, but it’s sad to give these awful people/trolls more attention because thats exactly why they posted it. They’re trolling your stuff, not actually commenting because they want to participate in a discussion of any kind.
The online world is an ugly one for everyone, men included. I know online male personalities who have had death threats, threats to their homes, families, etc. They’ve actually hired a full-time lawyer just to deal with it all. So while women tend to receive the sexualized comments, men deal with some nasty stuff, too.
Oh, they certainly do. But they do not deal with the people telling them to shut up just because they’re men. The attacks women get are of a different variety, and we do need to recognize that.
I read some of the comments on Katie’s video as it was happening. It made me shake with rage. It’s a good thing she’s surrounded by strong, grounded people and has a strong, grounded mom. But if people think that the fact that you all are able to respond in a extraordinarily reasonable fashion means that the state of a huge chunk of North American Christianity is NOT diseased and rotten, then they are wrong.
The verse that came to mind is that you are being the salt of the earth. Matt 5:13. Salt is irritating to a wound. I think God will reward your suffering for what is right. We have personally found your book 31 days to great sex very helpful.
Oh, I like that picture! “Salt is irritating to the wound.” I’m going to ponder that one. Thank you! (And I’m so glad you found 31 days helpful, too!)
There are many times that i am embarrassed to even be male. Reading this just makes it worse. The first time i ever heard of Jessica Harris was on this blog where she and I had a rather jovial exchange in the comments section of some post a while back. Ended up watching her testimony with very moist eyes. Its all so sad. I get being a frustrated middle age man, i get that, but commenting like this on someones blog is so insane to me. Like what do they think that is going to accomplish? Its all just about being a personal attack at that point. So rediculous.
I’m not surprised by any of this Sheila. I had to shut down my blog for the same reasons you listed here. I want to start another one but i love the comfort of anonymity but i also know i can be a ministry to others like they have been to me on the internet. We can’t allow evil people to win.
Don’t be surprised by the middle aged men saying those things to your daughter. A well known porn site actually released data showing the highest viewed porn are teenage porn and interracial porn involving black men and white women. And i bet you many of these viewership come from men who call themselves Christians too. “Not everyone who says, Lord, Lord will inherit the kingdom.”
We love your whole family Sheila. Thank you for being the sacrificial lamb so the rest of us can benefit on your behalf. Thank you for taking up that mantel. Never allow them to stop you and keeping bringing Glory to Christ by talking about the most intimate act He could give mankind, lovemaking. Love you!
Hey Sheila, that looks so tough dealing with all the negativity you receive in response to effectively free marriage counseling material you provide on this blog. It’s so disturbing what people who deem themselves righteous are ready to throw your way.
I can see that the gender bias is quite a problem here – and in your country it seems to be particularly nasty since people are trying to justify it with countless out of context Bible verses. It all sounds pretty discouraging – I’m glad you have a good support circle in the TLVH world, so that in spite of this you keep on writing for us.
I found your blog a few months before I got married (more than 2 years ago) and it helped me understand how to think of the new relationship, how to perceive and understand my husband and how to learn to live together and grow the marriage. There was and still is so much to learn and I wanted to say thanks for your continued effort here to help us all, for the energy and thought you put into this blog.
Focus on the Family went up in my book. Perhaps there is hope for them yet.
Don’t agree with the vile, sexual stuff directed at you. But believe you are a Jezebel. A master one at that.
Thank you, BC, for proving my point. I appreciate it.
By the way, Jezebel’s getting kinda old. You should come up with something more original.
I’m not very familiar with the story of Jezebel, but I do find it interesting that everyone knows her name, and how evil she was, but her husband is not a household name at all, even though the first mention of Jezabel in the bible is preceded by this statement:
“29In the thirty-eighth year of Asa king of Judah, Ahab the son of Omri began to reign over Israel, and Ahab the son of Omri reigned over Israel in Samaria twenty-two years. 30And Ahab the son of Omri did evil in the sight of the LORD, k more than all who were before him. 31And as if it had been a light thing for him to walk in the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, l he took for his wife Jezebel the daughter of Ethbaal king of the m Sidonians, n and went and served Baal and worshiped him”
Excerpt from
ESV Classic Reference Bible
Crossway
https://books.apple.com/au/book/esv-classic-reference-bible/id368214461
This material may be protected by copyright.
Before Jezebel is mentioned, it is stated that Ahab ‘did evil in the sight of the Lord, more than all who were before him’.
Maybe Ahab was evil enough on his own, and Jezebel did not corrupt him?
I don’t know enough about this bible story to do any kind of deep analysis, but it looks to me, at face value, that Ahab chose Jezebel because he was living in sin already.
Totally agree!
Way to be a total A-hab
You totally proved her point. Way to go.
Thank you for revealing this world to us. It’s despicable, and pastors need to call them out, even if it means two-thirds of their congregation leaves because of it.
I believe, unless these (mostly) men repent (actual repentance) they are the ones who have caused the little ones to stumble and a millstone will be waiting to be tied around their neck. Then on judgement day they will be found out to be the goats and they will ask Jesus, “when were you naked and hungry?” Then they will see the ones they hated be received into glory.
I just have to remember the God gets the vengeance. It is not mine to demand.
Sorry for the Bible imagery here, but I think it is warranted.
Thank you, Jamie. I think so, too.
Sheila,
I’m one of those singles you mention from time to time who reads your blog. I’ve been here for close to two years now, and though this is my first time commenting, I’ve seen how ugly it can get for you here (but also how encouraging other readers can be, too).
I grew up in the church, but a couple years ago my uncle, who was like the older brother I never had, passed away very unexpectedly. I struggled much, mostly because grief is something that is almost shunned or feared in the American church, I feel. Many times when I would mention it to Christians, they would respond in a way that made me feel guilty for being sad. I wound up feeling like all my suspicions about Christianity growing up were true: that you can’t feel real emotions and be human, because to feel anything less than joy, even in sad times, isn’t Christlike. It really alienated me from the faith.
However, somehow I found your blog during that time (maybe during a Google search?) and read your articles about grief and losing your son Christopher. Your article “How to Hear God in the Middle of the Mess” was especially such a comfort for me during that first Christmas without my uncle. I could tell that you are the real deal when it comes to your faith, yet you’re honest about loss and doubt and sometimes even anger. You get it. You make God seem approachable. And you and your family are one of the reasons that makes me think I might be able to return to my own faith, one day.
I just wanted to thank you, especially today.
Oh, Kristen, that’s beautiful. Thank you so much for the encouragement! We simply must be authentic about our Christian walk. Vulnerability is okay. Emotions are good. I’m sorry the church doesn’t always get that, but God does, and He is not upset when we have emotions. I’m glad He led you to me!
Wow. I’m floored. Not surprised too much, though. I’ve seen vile hatred spewed from all kinds of web sites. Faith, politics, childrens books, even a site dedicated to flower growing! And a fair amount of it from people who CLAIM to be loving Christians.
What really got me were the stories of young girls who lived a sinful life, then found Jesus and repented and strove to be better people. Men would call them horrible names and tell them that they were going to burn in H*ll anyway.
We all sin. We all fall short of God and perfection, but He will forgive ALL sins if we truly repent.
Try as I might, I cannot remember ANYWHERE in the Bible where it says “repent of your sins and you will be forgiven, UNLESS you’re a female who does anything on this list, then you’re doomed no matter what”
Isn’t that just awful, Nathan? These men don’t know the gospel at all. They don’t know Jesus. But they think they do. And that’s why I want more pastors to start speaking up about how it’s not okay to treat women like this, because I honestly think many men believe they’re doing it in the name of Jesus.
Wow. Just…….wow.
PLEASE keep doing what you guys do. It really does some major good.
As a pastor friend of mine recently said, “The Gospel is just offensive. It just is.”
Thanks, Tom!
Hi, Sheila!
Although I knew that you were getting all kinds of comments and emails like this, sharing them certainly makes it even more real. It really makes me so sad every time I read one on your blog but, especially so today. So much can be said about these men but one thing is sure, when they make these kinds of comments…they are feeling guilty,convicted and threatened BUT take their emotions out on you (or whoever else will challenge them). Perhaps they’re not physically acting on their sin (outwardly looking godly) but most certainly their minds are occupied with the lust of it! There can be no other way with this type of unloving reaction. The book of James states, “each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death”. Evil desires give birth to sin! No way around that one. It saddens me so much, and it hurts the name of Christ way more. Each one of us is made in His image…why, oh, why can we not rather lift each other up in the name of Christ!!??
Sheila, “The LORD himself goes before you and will be with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged.”
Go forward, in the spirit of firmness but gentleness as Galatians 6:1,2 state. I am praying for you!
Thank you so much! That was beautiful. I appreciate it!
I think the thing that makes me the most …sad? confused? … is that Jesus himself was a man who treated women with compassion, respect, trust, and decency. He assumed they were capable of understanding deep spiritual things. He talked to them as people who needed to repent, people who understood more than the men sometimes, people who were, well, people.
Even Paul, who seems to the the Bible author mostly used to push down women, wrote, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
So many people misunderstand Paul’s teachings. They were (and are) incredible lessons in equality. Problems occur when people believe these two things: “the bible translation I use is infallible” and “it’s not a letter to the Ephesians, it’s a letter to the Canadians (Americans, Australians, or whatever the reader’s nationality).”
No need to learn context, they think, or ask how an Ephesian would have understood that letter. Apply the cultural assumptions of their own society rather than that of first-century Mediterranean. And take things out of literary context, too, for good measure. While at it, disregard any verses that clearly empower women. Voila! The bible clearly says that women are second class citizens. Unless the reader understands context, then it says that women and men are equal.
Unfortunately, that’s all too true! I wish people, when interpreting Scripture, would ask, “how did Paul actually ACT?” If you looked at how Paul treated women, you would see that he did not apply the restrictions to women in his own circle that people claim he is applying in his letters. We should assume that Paul is not being hypocritical, and that should inform our interpretation!
Sheila says
> > I want more pastors to start speaking up about how it’s not okay to treat women like this, because I honestly think many men believe they’re doing it in the name of Jesus.
This is likely very true. Much of this attitude likely stems from pastors misinterpreting bible verses (or even just making some up that don’t exist) and creating a belief that men are the REAL children of God, and women are little more than servants and/or concubines. Then the belief gets passed down through the generations, and men (and even women, too) are conditioned to just accept it.
Jesus, though, commands EVERYBODY to love EVERYBODY. We can disagree, we can differing viewpoints on things, but we should all love each other, and be good to each other, and there is no place for the vile hatred that I’ve seen (here and elsewhere). We’re not supposed to hate anybody. I try, and often succeed, but for the record, when I DO hate, I hate these groups…
1. Murderers
2. Rapists
3. Child molesters
4. Drug dealers
5. Terrorists
Hating somebody specifically because they have different body parts than I do is baffling, and quite frankly I don’t want to understand that mind set.
Hi Sheila and all WOMEN – I am so sorry for my gender failing you. Sadly I was one of those guys at one point in my life. I just justified my vileness towards women with vileness towards men or racism or whatever I chose. I have always suspected trolls here on the blog and I can say with great pleasure that while I was a vile individual of sorts at one point in my life, I certainly wouldn’t’ have even thought of damning God and Women and throw bible verses at them and spew garbage in that manner. That thought never would have crossed my mind. I am most positive that I have the potential to be one of Sheila’s most hated commenters here. I have have been attacked a few times here and the attacks where totally G rated comparatively. Unfortunately It is written that we will be attacked for standing up for God and Jesus. Apparently you are attacked even worse when you are a woman. That is why we need REAL MEN TO TAKE A STAND FOR WOMEN. Here is the thing….I want to jump in on that comment left by BC but I choose not. You know why? Cuz this is a blog, and I will guarantee you that 90% plus of the men including BC and others who leave vulgar comments and degraded women and are not Christ like would NEVER say those things to someones face. Why? Because those who write such garbage are FEARFUL. FEARFUL MEN. The men who quote 1 Timothy and 1 Corinthians do not have any clue as to the context of what the very meaning of what Paul was talking about and why he said it. He was talking about pagan women who worshiped in the nude and things of that nature. He wasn’t speaking of all women. He was speaking to the times. How little your minds are (YOU MEN) who throw such garbage. Sheila – I am so sorry for you and your family and the TLHV team for a having to deal with such vileness. I know I have thrown a couple horse shoes at you over the past 3 years and I tell you from my heart, that I was just trying to understand what we are doing here. Your mission is so important. I am so grateful to be part of this blog and all that has taken place in my life because of this blog. Here is what I feel like we are doing: Finding/Growing in JESUS; Helping women through life’s journey; Blessing and growing ALL marriages and along the way we are helping a few good men as well. Together we are growing as partners in marriage, and growing strong families and growing individually in Christ. We all have ONE COMMON DENOMINATOR; THAT’S JESUS! THANK YOU.
Phil, thank you so much for your kind words, and for your relentless encouragement. We so appreciate it!
And I think you’re right. They’re just scared. They really are. They’re insecure people who have accomplished little, and see women as threats. It’s rather pathetic, really, when all we want here is just to be part of a community of believers who lifts each other up! To think that you can only have value if you’re tearing others down shows the depths of someone’s fear.
Phil, I’ve read your comments from time to time, and I think the fact that I’ve READ them is a testament to your respect of Sheila… because they’ve been published.
You said something: “…those who write such garbage are FEARFUL. FEARFUL MEN. ”
I’ve heard it said, “They leave hateful anonymous comments online, because it’s the only place they feel powerful in their lives.”
And the truth of that makes me a little sad.
Thanks Lori – I appreciate your kind words. Hateful anonymous comments that make a man feel powerful is not only sad but the reality of that is absolutely ridiculous. See, Sheila talked about laughing at those hateful comments. I am sure she gets very hurtful stuff. But when you can see through it, all the way to the core which is FEAR , the comments become absolutely ridiculous. There’s no power, just hate and jealousy. Those men could only dream of the good life and love we Christians live. 😀
Wow, comments like these make me so sad that our churches have come to a place like this where women are shut down.
When I was a teenager I went through a time where I really wished I was a guy because of teachings like these that women are lesser than men. But one thing that has helped me since then, was that my husband pointed out to me that in the beginning when God created male and female he could have created another male if men are better than women, but he didn’t. He created a woman. That was a great thought for me as I started on my journey of realizing how much God loves women.
And I’ve been LOVING your blog, and Katie’s YouTube video’s, it’s been such a great encouragement for me. You do such a great job!! A huge thanks to you and your team for pressing on even when you get such heartbreaking, and nasty comments. I had no idea it was that bad.
Thank you so much, Kathryn! And it sounds like you’ve got an awesome husband. 🙂
I SURE DO!!!!!!☺ He is so awesome, and has helped me in so many ways.
I live in the town where Louisiana College is located. That quote from a dean doesn’t surprise me in the least. The whole campus is a cesspit of corruption and dangerous ideas. Every friend I have who’s been a student there, except one, has ended up destroying their life in one way or another, or having it destroyed by actions beyond their control but which circumstances trace directly back to events at LC.
They’re constantly in the local news with the scandal of the month, constantly on the verge of losing their accreditation with the state, and can’t keep good professors for anything. Only newly minted professors will go work there, and they rarely last more than two years. They can’t take the hypocrisy anymore.
They also make it very difficult for professors and staff to attend any church that’s not SBC. The football team is constantly in trouble with drinking and driving and the players who get tickets for it are never disciplined in any way. Staff are rude. The dorms were in disrepair 20 years ago. They went from having one of the best pre-med programs in the South to one of the worst. The only decent program left is nursing, but even it’s declining quickly these days.
The whole place is crumbling inside and out. I think the world would be a little bit better if their accreditation did get yanked and they had to shut down.
That doesn’t actually surprise me, Rachel (just as the quote didn’t surprise you). Jesus said:
When a College believes as it does about women, then it’s going to bear bad fruit, because the root is bad. I hope that parents and prospective students wake up! At least this incident with Russell Meeks is getting press attention, even in the secular media, and hopefully that will discourage others from attending there.
I just followed the links you included in the post, and I had no idea Dr. Meek was one of the ones involved in calling this out. No wonder he left all of a sudden. I had the privilege of getting to know his wife in Bible Study Fellowship and when she shared he had quit, it wasn’t the time to ask questions about the circumstances.
Absolutely Dr. Meek is a wonderful man. I’ve never even met him and I know that. Because of his wife, who is an amazing woman and I learned so much from her in our BSF group.
I also know which church Josh Dara pastors locally, and it’s not one with a good reputation. They spend a LOT of money they don’t have and even a casual look at how they conduct themselves leaves me with a bad taste.
I’m glad you learned the whole story! It looks like the school acted very horribly. You should listen to the audio of his meeting with some trustees; it’s online, and it’s awful.
Thanks for all that you do Sheila. I believe it really is making a difference in peoples lives. I found your blog when you were doing the 28 days to great sex in February years ago and I was intrigued. I have a great marriage with a great sex life so I wasn’t looking for advice but have stayed because you are speaking the truth and your views and interpretation of the Bible are so close to mine and my husband’s own. What has always baffled me about the kind of men who are spewing this hate is the hypocrisy of their views and how deep their views are actually imbedded not in truth but in their own sin. For instance, they make the claim that the Bible supports their being the authority in their home and spiritual superiority over women based simply on their gender and their possession of a penis. But in the very next breath they claim that due to their gender and their possession of a penis and testosterone, they are not able to help themselves but to lust and therefore women need to be told how to act, what to wear, where to go, etc. So which is? Your spiritually superior to women but not spiritual enough to conquer a lust problem? It makes no sense whatsoever until you dig deeper and see the underlying sin which is control and power. And of course when their control and power is question they attack which is pretty much evidence enough that it a sin issue and not a proper understanding of God’s word.
The way I see it, I could care less if you have a hierarchical marriage if that is what both of you want and it works for you but do not tell me that it is the only “Christian” way to have a marriage because the Bible just doesn’t say that…your interpretation of certain words in the scripture says that to you. On the flip side I am not offended by your hierarchical marriage and feel no need to attack it even though that is not what my own marriage is like. Unless of course your views are because of a sin or idolatry issue that are manifesting in sinful actions, like abuse, towards another person. Then I will say something. It is sin and idolatry that makes us attack someone who thinks differently than us just because they think differently than us. The bottom line is what kind of marriage paradigm you follow has nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel doesn’t break down by what kind of marriage you have or how you interpret marriage passages in the Bible. If your faith breaks down because you have now been shown a different interpretation of scripture that may be more accurate than you never really believed the gospel at all but your faith was in yourself and the rightness of your beliefs. Keep up the good work Sheila! You are making a difference and I commend you for your courage!
Melissa, what a wonderful comment! Thank you! And I’ve so enjoyed having you on the blog for these years, too. I do recognize your email (that only I can see of course).
I think you’re totally right about the hypocrisy. It’s something I’ve thought about a lot lately. I think I’m going to save your comment and use it on the comment section of the podcast coming up!
I am continually aghast at the vileness of humans when they think they are being anonymous. I was taught that you should never say something online that you wouldn’t say if the person was standing in front of you. I don’t always agree with everything you post, but for those who claim in any way to be followers of Christ, where is your GRACE? Speak words of encouragement into the lives of others at every opportunity. You can disagree and comment while still being kind. I remember one particular message that our pastor preached that focused solely on how much Jesus respected women! They were his friends and followers and there are so many examples in the Bible of these women. He taught men how to love, protect, and support strong women, not to trample them under His feet.
Amen, F! Amen.
Sheila, though I sometimes disagree with you on theology. and single your theology out for criticism, this is one of those things I have to scream ‘Testify sistah! I was getting so many nasty fetid sexual comments at No Longer Quivering that I ended up starting a separate blog to deal with them – Jerks4Jesus. I place all the hateful misogynistic men there and point out who they are. Some rather prominent in ministry sometimes. Christian men need to be better than this!
Oh, I’m going to have to go check that out!
😳😳😳😳😳 Ew. 1000x ew.
I know men like this would’ve (& do) existed without the widespread use of porn and a porn-saturated culture. And if they’re non-believers, they don’t really have a reason to NOT act like selfish, chauvinistic, arrogant jerks who think it’s okay to treat other people like second class citizens (even if they only do so online). But I have to wonder: how much worse has porn made this whole situation at large, and how much worse has it made this issue within the church specifically? We know that porn changes the way men view women. Let’s take a pastor who also watches porn, for example. Even if he was taught solid doctrine growing up and in seminary, how easy would it be for him to start listening to the more misogynistic voices in the “christian” world and accept those as truth, when he’s filling his mind a steady diet of filthy, degrading, damaging images. I have to wonder if the widespread use of porn within the church is why more men haven’t stood up to teachings out there that put women down and totally go against what the Bible says about how God views men and women as equally important.
I think you’re absolutely right on with this, Natalie! I think porn-watching pastors is really having an impact on theology and teaching, and it’s tragic. And we have to call it out!
Not surprising, with all the male-domination and putting women in pain in most of the porn videos.
And I heard from those who commissioned a Barna Study about porn in the church: Many survey-takers said, “We don’t use less porn than men outside the church. We just lie about it more often.”
Kristina Kuzmic, aka “The Truth Bomb Mom”, made a video not long ago addressing this topic. It’s titled “Out Them”. She reads some of the disgusting, explicit comments men have left for her and then goes on to share how when she finally called out one of them, the number of women who shamed her for it was shocking. Ladies!!! No!!! When a man attacks one of our sisters in such a vile way we should be the FIRST to come to her defense! Change begins when we stand up and say “No, this is not acceptable and we will not tolerate it any more.”
In Genesis when God is laying out the terms of “the curse” on mankind he says to the serpent “I will place enmity between you and the woman.” Notice God doesn’t say that about the man. He says that about THE WOMAN. There is a specific spiritual war against women that has been going on since the beginning of time and it is about dang time we recognized it for what it is and what it’s doing to women and men alike.
I’m not sure how this ended up as a reply below another comment, it was meant to be a standalone comment. Oh well. I’m commenting from my phone and it has been doing some weird things today!
Amen, Melissa! Totally agree. And I saw that video on Facebook; it was awesome. I think I’m just going to keep outing these guys. And if they belong to a church and they’re on social media, I’ll send the comment to their pastor!
Wow, this is so spot on and one of the major reasons in my leaving the faith. The biblical justification for discrimination, racism, misogyny, is a cancer that is eating the church alive. Most non-religious people can understand the very basic moral and loving principles of equality and acceptance. When the church clutches onto these archaic beliefs out of fear in losing the white male privilege, it reinforces the idea and belief of those still searching that the church is not a place of peace, forgiveness, love and salvation.
I do struggle a bit when I come across verses such as the one mentioned regarding women teachers, or the one in exodus spelling out rules on how to treat your slaves, or the contradiction of God denouncing murder 3 chapters before he gives instruction on laying waste to neighboring settlements while telling the Israelites to take all the virgins for themselves.
I’ve heard it argued many times that Jesus’s death and resurrection put an end to the old covenant and laws, but in my mind there was never a time when these things would have been seen as the moral high ground.
Biblical study led me to the realization that I had no way to know which parts of the bible I could trust and follow and which ones should be left by the wayside.
All that being said, I absolutely applaud for speaking a viewpoint on which i had not expected to come from the mouths of evangelicals, it is absolutely refreshing, i offer you all the encouragement in the world to continue down this path.
It is disgusting how people behave while they hide behind a computer. I’m so sorry that your family has to deal with such hatred. God bless you and your family!
Thank you!
Ok. The internet comments are vile. And the people attacking young girls sharing their testimony on YouTube are scum. Everyone knows YouTube comments are only slightly better than 4chan. The primordial slime pools from which all trolling and verbal diarrhea originates. *sigh* this is why we can’t have nice things.
However, am I the only one who nearly fell off the chair laughing at the panty email? Seriously. Just imagine how pathetic your life must be for you to write such a thing. Who goes around begging people for used underwear to aid in their sexual fantasies? That’s…. amazingly sad. And funny. I guess he’s at least asking nicely, instead of inciting sexual violence like the Incels.
Oh dear.
Stand strong Sheila dear. Maybe we’ll have AI programs that are smart enough to correctly identify and remove this nonsense with 100% accuracy someday soon so that no-one has to deal with this anymore.
Oh, we totally laughed at the panty thing! I seriously did send a group text to my whole family as we debated hilarious ways to respond.
“This is why we can’t have nice things.” It reminds me of an article I wrote a while back where I was saying that Satan’s goal is not just to create horrible things, but to eradicate the world of beauty. When he can attack good things, he wins. So we’ll fight back, and we won’t let him win!
As a man, I view as one of my God-given roles to protect women. Not just physically, but emotionally too. I am sorry that so many of my fellow men, the same ones who describe themselves as Christians, conduct themselves in this manner. It is indefensible, abusive, and vile. I regret women have to deal with these sort of things. I suggest that many of these keyboard commandos would not be so bold if they did not think they would remain anonymous.
Thank you, Ron! And, yes, I’m sure that they would not be so emboldened if they were not anonymous. 🙂
I heard a great quote from one of my favorite authors: ” I don’t give my time to anyone who doesn’t have skin in the game.” (He meant those who hide behind anonymity before being evil.)
I’m really disappointed with focus on the family and how they’ve responded (or in this case not responded) to you. I really respected James Dobson and what they put out as an organization. I’m really blown away by this! It’s sad and it makes me rethink who they are and what they stand for. Thanks for letting us know what happened when you tried to reason with them.
Thanks, Amy. Dobson doesn’t run Focus anymore–he left maybe a decade ago? But the new leadership I thought for sure would listen. I was just really surprised.
I agree- I had more respect for the new leadership and that’s a disappointment. Dobson however- I recycled all his books when I woke up to realize that my parents awful treatment of me was actually taught by him. I regret that now- I think burning them would have afforded me more healing from my childhood. 🙂
My guess is that a lot of this has its roots in the misinterpretation of three parts of the Bible.
First, the Garden of Eden. Some believe that women are primarily, permanently and universally “tainted” with original sin, and ALL women bear this guilt for corrupting “innocent” and “pure” men.
Second, the phrase “wives submit to your husbands”, which (as we’ve noted elsewhere on this site) is part of a larger thought that tells us that wives and husbands must submit to each other equally.
Finally, the “women, be silent in church” verse. According to some, Paul was speaking to one particular church where women should shout and yell, talk out of turn, and in general disrupt things, so he may not have really meant that women were not allowed speak the word of God at all.
This legacy has been handed down through the centuries, and maybe, just maybe, we’re beginning to get over it, but it looks like we have a long way to go
I think we do have a long way to go, but we’re definitely making progress! And that’s likely why these men are fighting so hard, because they see their domination slipping away as the church starts focusing more on Jesus and less on power.
A bit what I wrote on your FB page, with a couple new paragraphs down below:
“Your (woman parts) are probably all dried-up.” “That’s insane” “You must have extremely low self-esteem.”
Those were said to me because we help wives and couples after Porn Addiction & Betrayal—and that’s when we were just getting started.
Because we’ve healed this in our own marriage, and because I help betrayed women find a voice,
men out there have clobbered me.
So it’s a concern for me…
(And thank you, Sheila, for your response on FB to what I said to one of them one time. It’s encouraging)…
—
IN THIS BLOG POST you admit a great thing:
That you assume most are good-hearted guys.
Unfortunately, what I’ve seen in our work with porn addicts, however, is this:
Even with the men we’ve worked with who at first come across as good-good hearted, almost all of them end up showing their true-verbally-abusive-colors at a certain point…
and the curious thing is this, that happens
the very moment his wife starts using her voice.
—
I GOT LITERAL CHILLS WHEN YOU WROTE:
“I believe a sleeping giant has awakened…. And the dam is breaking. God is pouring out His Spirit, and His daughters will prophesy.”
I love this!
And I can attest that it is true in the marriages we’ve worked with, because when the women continue to use their voice—and continue to stand their ground in Christ—a great majority of the husbands listen to their wives. Sadly, a few have not.
So keep speaking out, Sheila!
Yes, yes, yes! Strong Godly women won’t hide in the shadows. We are called to bring sin into the light, have solid boundaries and be courageous in whatever God hands us. Ephesians 5:11-14
@Becky, Yup! I’ve heard men keep women silent (usually about their husband’s porn use) by saying, “YOU need to have more faith!” …But I don’t think those men understand it will result in us speaking even more LOUDLY!
As an older woman, you are literally fulfilling God’s command in Titus 2 to teach younger women to be godly wives.
It’s so disheartening when people claim to speak for Jesus, but are clearly nothing like Him. Christianity is not just about what we believe or say, but how we treat people!
“‘Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?’ Jesus replied: ‘”Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.”‘ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘”Love your neighbor as yourself.’ (Matt 22:36-39).
“By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another” (John 13:35).
“But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you” (Luke 6:28).
Interestingly, the worst things said to me actually came from women. One in particular said that I was so vile, my husband was certainly shutting his eyes and imagining porn stars to even be able to make love to me. I don’t even recall what triggered her, but she was making the case that I was not Christian and she was. But what Christ-like person says that to another???
Anyway, one last verse to encourage you (and all of us who are trying to do the right thing): “Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness” (Acts 4:29).
Thank you, J! I know that you deal with this crap too. It’s just awful.
I haven’t had women call me names yet (maybe that’s coming?). I have gotten into some ridiculous spirited debates with women holding terrible, terrible views, but none calling me names. Whereas men I’ve had a ton calling me names, even those supposedly pastors, talking about “whore of Babylon”, etc. etc. pretty awful!
It also doesn’t seem uncommon, at least on twitter, for men to pretend to be women to say vile things. They never quite sound right though. Women have a different voice, even when they are saying things I heavily disagree with.
I just want to say how blessed I have been by your ministry. My husband and I are working very hard on emotional reconnection and you have been a great source of wisdom. My husband is recovering from life long sexual addiction and we our both in Pure Desire and Betrayal and Beyond groups. This one year intensive course is so encouraging and my husband is indeed a new creature in Christ. He was so full of righteous anger before discovery and recovery. When I read some of those comments, I see glimpses of men who think verbal battery and sexual addiction is their right and they haven’t met the heart of Jesus and for that reason they will never know true emotional intimacy in their marriages. They are trapped in a web of satan’s lies. Thank you and prayers.
Hi Sheila
Thank you for this post. The internet can be such a hard place but I am so thankful that you are choosing to soldier on and be the light in a dark dark world. Thank you for your boldness. It means so much to me. I pray God will continue to strengthen you as you speak. You, your family and the team are such a refreshing blessing to the body of Christ. God bless.
Sheila,
Unfortunately, you are fighting an uphill battle because the enemy has been there ahead of you.
Certainly, some of these men (and women) are trolls. They’re not interested in anything but shock value, and have no issue saying things that are not true, or far out of proportion to what they actually feel.
Certainly some of these men (and women) are not Christians at all, and don’t believe that they are but they enjoy tearing down anything in the Word because they believe that religion in general and Christianity in particular is the cause of all the ills of the world. They feel justified in everything they do because the believe that they could never be more evil than what they assume we are.
Certainly some of these men (and women) are vile individuals who are not preaching the Word of Christ, but their own sin in such a way as to excuse it. They cannot bear to look into the mirror you are holding out into the world though your blog, so they feel they must smash it.
But there are another group of people- individuals who have been badly injured emotionally (and often in other ways) by misandry who get even a small whiff of something resembling ‘feminism’ and recoil away in fear and rage. And still others who feel cheated by ‘Good Christian Girls’. It’s likely similar to how people who are survives of abuse have much of their world view colored by it.
I know at least 3 different men who have had FALSE sexual misconduct allegations thrown at them- the girls came out later and admitted as much. All the damage done to their lives was met with an ‘oops- oh well’. I know two different men who have had their children stolen from them because they didn’t formally adopt them, and even though those kids had only ever known one father their exes wanted to hurt them. Cassie Jaye has a fascinating Ted Talk on the general subject of feminism and the Men’s Rights Movement.
One of my brothers dated a Good Christian Girl for quite a while (they actually got engaged). She was very nice- but was raised so sheltered she automatically assumed that he should move cities (far away from his job industry) to be close to her elderly parents, pay off her doctorate level student loans so she could quit any job she got so she could start having babies right away, and that he should give up his hobbies because they were ‘too expensive’ and ‘that’s money we should be giving away for mission’. He gave up on chasing his dream job to be with her- and in the end she broke the engagement because he hadn’t compromised enough and told him essentially he wasn’t a good enough Christian. I think he dodged a bullet, but it really hurt him.
I try to keep men who have been so hurt by women in my prayers. But it does not excuse the vitriol. I think that people default to nasty sexual comments for women because it’s low hanging fruit- the equivalent to ‘YOUR MOTHER!’.
What has been sent to you and your family and honest people out there is pathetic and vile. But there’s a old quote that I think is pertinent here: “If you’re not catching flak, you’re not over the target.” You’re not relying on your own strength here, and it won’t matter how deeply the enemy has dug into his position- ‘If God is for us, who can be against us?’
I really like your comment, Sarah. I think you balance things out really well. I particularly appreciate that you touched on the issue of misandry and the toxic feminist movement that exists today. A lot of men out there have a huge chip on their shoulder because they have been burned by these types of women or see men being abused by them. Sadly, a lot of these men don’t have good experiences with women to balance out the bad ones so they end up assuming all women are evil and must be attacked. Women like Sheila, her daughter and other female bloggers end up being targets simply because they are female. I doubt their actual message is even getting through to these men. And the really scary thing is that some men actually believe that women who speak in favor of men are just doing it to entrap men using sugar ad bait and changing the menu to poison as soon as they have them in their clutches. I’m not making excuses for these men. They SHOULD have the good sense to do some research into who these women are and research the consistency of their views and messages. They SHOULD give women a chance before making a sweeping judgement about them simply because they are a female. Sadly, a lot of these men are stuck in a cycle of bitterness and cynicism. That’s how movements such as MGTOW have come about. It’s a toxic worldview that involves one sex deciding that the other sex is not only unnecessary but evil. You know. Like modern day feminism. It’s scary.
I totally agree with both of you! I would never refer to myself as a feminist because I see the damage that the movement has done, and the constant victim mindset is obnoxious, and the hatred of traditional masculinity is sinful. I think the “other side” is swinging the other way, and men are beginning to be just as vile in their attack as women have been. The problem is that we should all be “equalists”, and judge people by their behavior and their attitudes, and not by any other criteria such as gender or race. The flip side of that is that, as a people, we HAVE to stop seeing ourselves and “our group” as being victimized and oppressed. Like the “wage gap” idea. A wage gap only exists in the US if you compare all working men to all working women. It disappears when you compare similarly employed men and women(doctors to doctors, social workers to social workers – NOT doctors to social workers). The facts are, for a multitude of reasons, more women pursue degrees in, and take jobs in, sectors that simply don’t pay as high. Many also take off from their careers to have kids. But more women than men are graduating from college in the US now, and there are no longer laws that oppress women or people of other races. Laws apply to everyone. That being the case, let’s stop jumping on victim band wagons and take personal responsibility to shape our lives to be what we want.
Note: I don’t disagree that many church teachings are inherently sexist, but people are free to stop attending where they aren’t treated well. We can, and should, use our freedom of speech to speak the truth unapologetically, and I appreciate this blog for doing just that.
Thanks, Lindsey. I just wish all of this gender stuff didn’t matter, and that we didn’t consider gender in the church anymore but only giftedness and Holy Spirit calling. That would be much better.
“men are beginning to be just as vile in their attack as women have been”
This seems…outsized. Men have treated women poorly, used women, raped them, for all of time. I think men can’t handle the pushback and don’t want to accept women’s genuine issues. Most women could easily use a bad experience (or 10 bad experiences) they have had to vilify all men but we don’t see the same level of violence coming from them. In light of that, I’m not willing to let them off the hook on this behavior.
Some good points there. I would like to say that men are dealing with revenge feminism and identity politics. Women, with the remnants of patriarchy. MGTOWs and revenge feminists have something in common, although it might kill them to admit it. Both refuse to acknowledge that the other sex is also being oppressed.
I was very emotional by the end of this post (“…And the dam is breaking. God is pouring out His Spirit, and His daughters will prophesy.” gave me chills!). Reading your blog over the years has filled my life with so much light and peace and understanding. Thank you for all you sacrifice. I will be praying for your family.
I’m so sorry. It breaks my heart that you all go through this. I’m sure some of the responses you get would be actionable here in the states by the local constables. I only hope that Canada’s RCMP is as active in the cyber world as the US authorities are. Shelia’s advice saved my marriage, so you all perform a valuable service. Please understand that those that you help, love you way more than the haters do. I hope you take some solace in that.
Very sorry to read this post. You have helped turn my marriage around. You are a blessing!! Thank you for all the work you and your family does. I’m gonna add you marriage bloggers and authors to my prayers.
I started sharing some of your wisdom on other sites, so I’ve had a taste of it too (although not, yet, as bad as some of what you’ve posted.) I ended up deciding not to link back to you, to try and save you just a little bit of pain. I’m sorry it’s like this for you and your family.
Thanks, Brievel! It is terrible that there are sites that are dedicated just to hating women, all supposedly in the name of Christ. So awful.
I’m super uncomfortable with Focus on the Family now too. I used to really like them but I listened to several that left me feeling shocked – in a bad way. Focus interviewed a single woman who adopted a girl with special needs. It was a heartwarming story. Unfortunately the interviewer frequently stopped her to add in “Focus does not condone single parent families.” There was no need for it and I just felt sick when I realized how often they were pausing to undermine her whole story because she was an unmarried woman.
Oh, seriously? How awful! That really is terrible. I’m still shocked that they didn’t respond to me. I honestly thought they would.
Are we totally, 100% sure your messages were delivered properly and were opened/read by the staff at Focus? Maybe it’s that I was raised by parents who were hardcore Focus on the Family / Dr Dobson readers and supporters, but I too find it hard to believe they’d just dismiss you like that! Then again, maybe it’s so hard for me to believe because I genuinely though they and what they taught were solid, biblical teachings concerning parenting and marriage/relationships. But if I take a step back, how messed up were my views on marriage and sex?!?! Where did I get those from? I largely got them from my Christian school and my parents, both of whom were proponents of Focus on the Family. It’s just sad. I feel so conflicted about them now. Like, if I can’t trust them, which source in the Christian world can I trust?!?! 😔 I know Jesus alone is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Maybe it was my fault that I valued FotF’s opinions so much and put them on such a pedestal.
We know that they opened the email on several occasions and we were sure to direct it to the higher ups at Focus, who Sheila has had speaking engagements with in the past. I’m quite certain they know about the report but have chosen to ignore it.
As for organizations to trust, it’s tricky. But I’d look for the fruit. Family Life Canada is excellent, for sure!
I also had trackers on the emails and I know they were opened, often repeatedly on several different days.
Dr. Dobson’s books on marriage – while a little old fashioned at time – were very balanced in my opinion. His book “Love Must Be Tough” is basically the polar opposite of “Love and Respect”. Even his parenting books, which I noticed some commenters took issue with, were balanced. He advocated spanking, but only until age 6 or 7, and only very outright defiance, and never in anger. He also said to take care to nurture and not break your child’s spirit, to give more freedom/be less controlling the older they got, keep the lines of communication open, etc. Just like with Christianity, I think his reputation and works are tainted by people who did the opposite, and claimed they were following his advice. It was a shame he was forced out of FoF.
That’s good to hear, Joanna and Lindsey. I’ll check out Family Life and FL Canada. I obviously don’t remember all the words I read and that were read to me from Dr. Dobson and FotF (I got their Brio magazine for years when I was a tween and teen thanks to my mom). I just remember the jist of what was taught to me, which I’d say wasn’t completely damaging and was pretty good on the whole (maybe only 10-25% damaging content) concerning my views on married sex and gender roles/dynamics within marriage. I just think it’s really discouraging and very tell that a large, powerful organization like FotF who’s had Sheila on their platform numerous times can’t even reply back with feedback on her and her readers’ valid concerns! 😬 Even if they still agree with what Love & Respect says (especially in loving, non-abusive marriages), all they have to do is address the sex chapter and chime in with their thoughts and what their platform believes and stands for. It really shouldn’t be that hard!
That’s what I thought, too. Although I also thought that they would respond to the abuse stuff. In this day and age for a large organization to ignore abuse allegations is ridiculous.
I actually thought Love Must be Tough was a good book if you’re dealing with a spouse having an affair. I recommend it a lot. I haven’t read it in almost twenty years now, but I remember it being balanced. I’m not sure about other books, though.
As a Christian guy in ministry who struggles sometimes with reconciling the Bible and what I believe to be right with regard to womens’ ministry, I want to say from the bottom of my heart that I’m sorry you’ve put up with this.
I was GOING to say “Sorry you HAD TO put up with this.” But I don’t think you had to. You shouldn’t have. It was evil of these men to put you through it, and I feel horrified.
I don’t know what I can do to stop it (since I would already assume that such comments are completely unacceptable for any reason) but I can tell you that if at any stage I see someone do something like this I will call them out on it. On that you have my word.
Thank you, Johno! I appreciate that. I think the big thing is just to call out the teaching that subjugates women. John MacArthur, for instance, believes that all women should be in submission to all men, and divorce is not acceptable for any reason, even abuse. So does John Piper. We need to start calling these things unacceptable, so that teachers who hold such views will be ostracized, and then those views won’t spread. That’s all I can think of right now, but that’s the big one!
Yes. Some of these very popular authors and speakers are quoted and recommended for their other statements and books. But I will not do that. Both of those people have some kind of block in their brains when it comes to women. I refuse to separate that part of their teaching from the rest.
That’s how I feel, too!
I had no idea you were being subjected to these kind of responses! I’m appalled! Please let me urge you to keep writing, blogging and doing what you’re doing. I have been so encouraged by your writing as I’m still working through the aftermath of a lifetime of unbiblical teaching on sex (luckily I’ve been married to an amzing Christian man for 24 years!). Thank you Sheila!
Thank you so much, Ruth! And way to go for amazing husbands!
You, and the others, are so brave. I just found your book “Good girl’s guide…” and immediately reached out to my friends to do a study. I’m a 51 year old woman who came to Christ at the age of 49. I was sexually abused, raped and had multiple abusive relationship in my past. Your book is helping me to repair my sexual relationship with my husband. Hang on to that, what you do matters. A lot.
I can’t imagine how difficult it must be to follow Jesus command to Love others in the face of such malevolence. As I’ve said over and over again since coming to Christ, being a Christian is the hard path. It’s not a spectator sport, it’s an active life. As Andy Stanley wrote, as followers of Jesus it requires us to ask the question “what does love require of me?”. I’ll pray for you on this one, because if it were me receiving these awful comments, love for my neighbor would be one heck of a battle. <3
Thank you so much, Stephanie! And I’m so glad that you found Jesus, and that you found community!
Sheila, your hatred for men is obvious. You refuse to post messages you don’t like. I post messages that do not violate ANY of your posting rules, and yet they don’t show up. Why not?
Tim, the only comments I don’t publish are ones that would paint Jesus in a bad light to seekers that were visiting this site, and that attack other commenters. I have no idea what comments you have previously published which haven’t shown up, but I’m pretty sure if they haven’t, that there was a very good reason.
Also, once a point has been made, it doesn’t need to be made again, and the argument doesn’t need to keep going on. I do not owe my blog space to people who do not respect women. You are more than welcome to start your own blog.
The attitude that women should shut up because they aren’t men is awful – and I’m sorry that you’ve had so much hatred poured in you via the internet.
I have to disagree in some degree though, with men not being told that they have to be quiet because they’re men. Men who are proliferating are told basically every day that their opinion doesn’t count because they don’t have the correct anatomy. And I would be willing to bet they are actually told that by a broader segment of society (roughly half, of you’re in the US). Conservative blogger Matt Walsh actually had people tel him that they hoped his 5 year old daughter, his wife, and all the women in his family would be raped (and also that he should kill himself – which is an extremely common comment male bloggers receive) simply because he said he didn’t believe that a child conceived by rape should die for the sins of its father. So, I think that men and women both face this kind of discrimination – women by some church leaders and men by some social leaders. The point is – it’s not just gender, ANYTIME someone speaks the light of truth into the darkness of sin, that darkness will attempt to silence them by whatever means necessary, even by discrediting them based on gender. Keep speaking light into the darkness anyway “and the darkness could not overcome it”.
pro-life not proliferating…autocorrect 🤦🏻♀️
Well said, Lindsey! There’s lots of evil on the internet no matter your gender. If you’re speaking up for God and His Word and Son, you’ll be lambasted…. that’s just part of being a Christian and living in a world ruled by Stan.
Lol, “ruled by Satan”. I have nothing against men named Stan! 😂😂🤦🏻♀️ I’m sure men named Stan are not the root of all evil in this world hahaha.
That’s like the blogger Dee at Wartwatch whose favorite moniker is “Daughter of Stan”.
This post reminds me of an episode of “call the midwife” season 7 episode 6. In the episode the nurses are giving informational classes to teenagers about their bodies and how they developpment. They required each girls’ parents sign a permission slip. One girl forged her mom’s signature and when the mom found out she got really angry. She told the nurses they were exposing the girls to immoral information. All that was being taught was the proper name for each body part and some on how to handle menstruation. I won’t spoil the rest of the episode. It dies a great job demonstrating why giving young ladies the right information is helpful and why hiding it can hurt their future sexual relationship with their husbands.
https://relevantmagazine.com/god/watch-male-pastors-read-sexist-comments-female-pastors-have-actually-been-told/
I found it very interesting that this^ article came out on the same day as your own, Sheila. Even that I checked Feedly on that day, coz usually I see your posts through email. I think it’s a day on the Kingdom calendar for sure!
You are right about a dam breaking. My Controversial Opinion of the Day is that the Holy Spirit has used third wave feminism to do it.
I know! I saw that on Facebook as soon as I hit publish. Such interesting timing!
While hate, sadly, is everywhere, in this specific case (directed at women bloggers who talk about sex), much of it seems to come from the theory that women are supposed to be their husbands sex slaves, but should never, ever talk about it.
The fact that you aren’t totally submissive AND you speak your mind about things that “nice girls” aren’t supposed to talk about.
Sheila says
> > the only comments I don’t publish are ones that would paint Jesus in a bad light to seekers that were visiting this site, and that attack other commenters
That last one is hard for me! I’m usually on political threads, where we beat the stuffing out of each other on a daily basis. Here, I just try to focus on God’s love and how great love and marriage can be if we approach each other as equals in God and Jesus.
Just one thing…
> > Your hatred for men is obvious
Not to me, maybe I need to get my eyes checked. I haven’t been here long, but Sheila and the entire family seems to love all equally, no matter gender, race, color, etc.
Thank you, Nathan! That certainly is what I aim for–I think wives should respect husbands and husbands should respect wives. I think in some marriages SHE is the majority of the problems; in other marriages HE is the majority of the problems. I don’t think one gender has the corner on sin, nor do I think one gender has the corner on sinlessness. The problem is not gender; it’s sin. But somehow whenever I try to point out that men may be doing things wrong, too, I get people accusing me of being anti-man.
This is horrifying and yet I can’t say I’m completely shocked. Thank you for standing up for the truth even when you’re met with such criticism and vile comments! We as the church need to be aware of what’s going on within our greater community, so I’m glad you’ve chosen to shine a light into this darkness. God bless you in your ministry and give you continued strength, boldness, and love. We need your message!
They think women should be silent because ‘god’ while they call you whores and hurl death threats.
There are good men, but there are so many who are just awful too. They are proving that men as a whole should *not* be in charge, every day.
And on those threats, I might be inclined to keep them in a file, just in case anything more threatening happens. Most of them are probably blowing smoke, but you just never know. I wish someone would take threats to women as seriously as they take threats to the president, because they are so much more likely to follow through.
My guess is that most of the people making these threats are just conditioned to believe certain things that are sometimes taught in churches…
1. Men are the only TRUE children of God, and women were created to serve them.
2. Sex is the preserve of men only. Women are supposed to submit to their husbands at any time, but are never to talk about it or enjoy it
Likely what triggers them is that fact that this site (and Sheila mostly) openly talks about sex, says that men and women should be equal in their relationships, and says that wives should enjoy sex as much as husbands. This flies in the face of what some people believe, and it’s hard to overcome these attitudes when you’re taught that your entire life. I myself was not raised in a church family, so maybe I escaped some indoctrination by coming to Christ myself at the age of 12.
But, there are some sick twisted people out there. So like Lea says, save the emails and email addresses and look to your own safety.
I give my condolences to you– I’ve faced these things too, though I’m not a public blogger. I remember on one forum, some random guy I didn’t know threatened to “destroy my reputation” on the forum if I didn’t cyber with him and be his internet girlfriend.
It was… impossibly creepy. I’m glad the moderators there put a stop to it and banned him. He came back with a fake account and posted… well, let’s call it “hardcore extreme-kink pornography”, spamming the forum with it while declaring “THIS IS WHAT SHE LOOKS AT WHILE SHE DOESN’T LOVE YOU”, before getting the most thorough ban the site operators were able to get him.
Wish I could say this was the only time a stalker tried to threaten me like that. I’ve read in this and other places how much worse it is for women who put themselves out in public or leadership positions– compared to little me who was someone who merely posted on a hobby forum (one which did not allow political discussion to begin with)… I don’t think I could put up with that. I applaud your courage.
I want to thank you and your daughters for being strong enough to speak your truth despite the attacks – and to also say that I am appalled, because simply speaking shouldn’t have to require bravery or putting up with abuse.
I also want to say that I am so impressed with your call to action.
Thank you so much, Cynthia!
Thank you so so much for posting this. Thank you for your courage in sharing these humiliating attacks…I’m grateful that you were able to see some of these in a humorous light, and I understand that all of this is despicable and inexcusable. Thank you so much for what you said about us rising up. We can’t heal in the same circumstances that made us sick…when I was struggling in my faith in high school because of corruption in the church, I realized slowly that leaving the church abandons young girls to the same toxic environment I was raised in. We need to fight for gentle, sweeping, unstoppable change in our churches. We need to insist on protecting girls and women from abuse when they step outside of their ‘place’. We need to teach young girls that they’re not immoral, they’re not broken, they’re not a temptation to males. We need to teach our boys to respect women and not let them ignore us or hate us, both of which come from seeing us as sinful temptresses. We need to teach girls and boys to work together. We need to allow women and men to speak up about the abuses they’ve experienced in the church without silencing them with demands for instant forgiveness. We need to keep men in leadership accountable for their words and actions towards women. We need to protect the women younger than us from lies and rumours. Thank you for caring about all this. My church is currently on a journey of fixing power imbalances, and you give me hope of how healthy things could be in the end.
Posting shows the bullies that you aren’t afraid of them. Good. I like your term “Christianese” which is very accurate. Increasingly some churches are looking like a male cult, and all I want is to be in community with the Lord.
I also believe that a men who truly believe in the submission of women, would protect women and not bully them, swear, participate in name-calling, or dismiss. They are hypocrites.
I’m so sorry you’ve had to go through this. I’m the same age as Katie and have followed her for a few years. I’m single and am frustrated with culture’s view of women. I hated seeing hateful comments from “Christian” men towards women who have been raped, Beth Moore, Katie, etc.
So many non-Christian men tend to view women as sex objects/often just want sex, but many Christian men often seem to be the same way unfortunately, OR they don’t have the guts to stand up against it.
It’s sad but it seems like the secular world tends to respect women more and looks at women as people. I am a Christian and want to marry a Christian, but the Christian men I have met just view women as sex objects.
I’m sorry, Samantha. I’ve heard that from so many young women. What I will say is this: good Christian men exist, and good Christian men do not blame women for lust or treat women like sex objects. If the men that you are around who call themselves Christians act like that, then it’s likely that the Holy Spirit is not there. I’d really encourage you to find a different church. Seek out a different Christian community. It is out there–it really is. God is working, and there is great growth going on right now. But there is also great hurt in some places, and if you want to be intentional about finding a good guy to marry, you may need a different group of people.
Good day Sheila,
I am very new to your superb site To Love, Honour and Vacuum. I have checked out so many different wonderful topics and discussions to help with communication and intimacy. Last night I came across this topic. I must say that I am highly disgusted by these men doing such atrocious things. It is conduct unbecoming!!
But before I get on a rant about these insecure men, I need to share 4 things with you and your staff.
1) You are warriors and soldiers in Christ for Christ! You are fighting hard to take back ground that the enemy has taken. As a soldier, you meet significant opposition and the enemy uses many different tactics to try to take you out and discourage you. Don’t give up! What ground are you taking back? The ground of intimacy, communication, sharing, love which its righteous fruits results in a strong and unified Godly family unit. I see the work you do and it is so precious, so important and extremely significant. Please keep up the excellent work!!!
2) My wife and I are proud to call you (you and your team) sisters and brothers (for the men that are part of the team) in Christ. You are doing NOTHING wrong! You are simply presenting and sharing the truth about marriage, communication, respect, intimacy etc. It needs to be done! And it is greatly appreciated.
3) Now, regarding these sad insecure men. These men attack you from behind the veil of technology. Pathetic! Absolutely pathetic. These people think they are coming at you from a position of superiority and power. In reality, they are cowardly lobbing these attacks from a position of insecurity and inferiority. You see, the truth that you so bravely present, forces them to evaluate and reconsider their ideology, mindsets and belief system. They are terrified that this truth will unravel their mindset/beliefs and leave them naked (spiritually) and highly vulnerable. They are afraid that they will have to apologize when they realize that they are wrong and as one of your previous commenters above mentioned, they are afraid of losing their power and influence over their poor battered wives. I am absolutely disgusted and enraged by the behavior of these men!
4) If this is of any consolation, these haters’ darts, arrows, lances, spears being lobbed at you and your team are confirmation that you are doing something right for God. Don’t get me wrong – I DO NOT condone their actions in any way, shape or form. I am trying to encourage you by saying – keep moving forward in boldness and authority! We need more people like you who are not afraid to share the truth! BE ENCOURAGED.
One last comment: I would rather die than treat ANYONE the way these men have attacked you and your team, let alone women in general!
To all you women, I am so sorry that you are experiencing this abuse. I am broken heart by this…..
SORRY.
I am trying to change my corner of the world for the better.
I just realized that the previous post was made about 6 months ago…. I sure joined late! LOL
Sometimes Sheila you post an ‘I’m sorry’ introduction, and I know you mean it. You and your family are sincere God-faring and beautiful. Over the years I have learned a lot through you. Sadly my wife won’t read your columns or literature, but we can live with life not being perfect. I value what you share and now it’s my turn to say ‘I’m sorry’. I apologise for our world becoming so distorted in so many ways, but especially about respecting others. I read only half of the above column and am disgusted that love, kindness, and all the fruits of the Spirit are being put aside for the ‘look at me and stuff everyone else’ brigade. We need to up our prayers; but a big thank you for all you offer. Shalom.