The Podcast on The Making of Biblical Womanhood

by | Nov 18, 2021 | gsr, Podcasts | 37 comments

Making of Biblical Womanhood Podcast with Beth Allison Barr

The amazing Beth Allison Barr is joining me today to talk about women and the history of the church.

One of the funniest things I often see when I go on Amazon and look up The Great Sex Rescue is the books that are recommended next to it. 

Three Books Together

It seems like people who buy The Great Sex Rescue really like Beth’s book–and they really like Kristin Kobes Du Mez’s book too (and she was on the podcast earlier this year!). 

In The Making of Biblical Womanhood, Beth, who is a historian, traces how what we think of as the biblical role of women is actually a relatively new creation. Women in medieval times have largely been erased from church history–but they were very active and played a variety of roles. 

But over the centuries, the church has tried to enforce a view of women that keeps women thinking that they are only here to play side roles while they serve men.

It’s time, Beth says, to set us all free.

Or, as always, you can watch on YouTube:

 

Timeline of the Podcast

0:30 We’re almost at 1,000,000!
2:00 Beth joins us!
3:00 Definitions for the discussion, and Beth’s backstory
8:00 Sheila’s own experience in the church
12:00 The changes in the argument over time
18:20 Let’s talk History!
27:45 Woman are not defined by ‘wife and mother’
37:40 Eternal subordination debate
49:45 Beth’s journey through various feedback

Main Segment: The Making of Biblical Womanhood

 

The Making of Biblical Womanhood

We talked about all of my favourite parts of the book–and I read out some of the quotes that I found so very powerful. 

But we also talked about how to handle pushback, some of the controversies in the church right now, and where we go from here. 

I loved this discussion, and this was my first time actually talking with Beth, after interacting with her so much online. 

Would you like to hear me talk with Beth again–and with Kristin Kobes Du Mez as well?

We’re doing a special event–Tea and Tent Pegs–December 6 and 9 pm EST!

Tea and Tent Pegs

Kristin, Beth and I will be talking about our books, the change that is coming, and what we see happening on the ground.

And the Tent Peg reference is from the Old Testament story of Jael killing Sisera–because Sisera underestimated a woman. It’s found in Judges 4! A woman is smashing the head of the enemies of God.

Unlike other podcasts you may have heard us on, though, we’re not just talking about our own books. We’ll be talking about each other’s. So instead of just hearing about The Great Sex Rescue from me (you already know all my sound bites!),  you’ll hear what stood out to Beth and Kristin. You’ll hear what surprised me about Kristin’s book (especially as a Canadian), or what Kristin thought about Beth’s. And Devi Abraham, from the amazing Where Do We Go from Here podcast, will be hosting!

It’s a FREE event, and you can listen LIVE (we hope you do; there will be door prizes and more!), or you can watch the recording afterwards.

incidentally, I only posted about this TWICE yesterday, and it is filling up fast. We’re already about 1/3 towards the max of the 3000 people who can attend. So sign up today! (If you don’t manage to register, the replay will still be available, but we’ll likely have to charge a small amount for it.)

Would you like to sponsor Tea and Tent Pegs?

We’ll have about 3000 super engaged attendees, and if you’d like to ask about sponsorship, leave a comment and I’ll email you back! Or just send us an email here. 

Things Mentioned in This Podcast:

  • Our amazing sponsor Femallay! It’s a Christian company focused on helping women thrive, with cloth menstrual pads, menstrual cups, balancing teas, and my favourite–vaginal melts!
  • Our Patreon: Join for as little as $5 a month, and get access to our exclusive Facebook group, unfiltered podcasts, merchandise, and more! The funds raised do not go to support this blog but instead to support Joanna and Rebecca as they get our research published in peer-reviewed journals and branch out into new social media that I can’t monetize
  • Beth Allison Barr’s book The Making of Biblical Womanhood, and my book The Great Sex Rescue
  • Lucy Maud Montgomery’s short story The Strike at Putney
The Making of Biblical Womanhood with Beth Allison Barr

Have you read The Making of Biblical Womanhood? What do you think of how the justification for keeping women as appendages to men has changed over the centuries? What can we do to “go, and be free” as Beth said? Let’s talk in the comments!

Sheila Wray Gregoire

Sheila Wray Gregoire

Founder of To Love, Honor and Vacuum

Sheila is determined to help Christians find biblical, healthy, evidence-based help for their marriages. And in doing so, she's turning the evangelical world on its head, challenging many of the toxic teachings, especially in her newest book The Great Sex Rescue. She’s an award-winning author of 8 books and a sought-after speaker. With her humorous, no-nonsense approach, Sheila works with her husband Keith and daughter Rebecca to create podcasts and courses to help couples find true intimacy. Plus she knits. All the time. ENTJ, straight 8

Related Posts

Sheila Wray Gregoire

Author at Bare Marriage

Sheila is determined to help Christians find biblical, healthy, evidence-based help for their marriages. And in doing so, she's turning the evangelical world on its head, challenging many of the toxic teachings, especially in her newest book The Great Sex Rescue. She’s an award-winning author of 8 books and a sought-after speaker. With her humorous, no-nonsense approach, Sheila works with her husband Keith and daughter Rebecca to create podcasts and courses to help couples find true intimacy. Plus she knits. All the time. ENTJ, straight 8

Related Posts

Comments

We welcome your comments and want this to be a place for healthy discussion. Comments that are rude, profane, or abusive will not be allowed. Comments that are unrelated to the current post may be deleted. Comments above 300 words in length are let through at the moderator’s discretion and may be shortened to the first 300 words or deleted. By commenting you are agreeing to the terms outlined in our comment and privacy policy, which you can read in full here!

37 Comments

  1. Lauren

    I’ve struggled a LOT with God, the Bible, and Paul for the past few years, and Beth’s book has been so encouraging for me, especially to help me not think of Paul as a horrible person! I still have a lot to work through, but the Making of Biblical Womanhood gave me a big chunk of hope when I desperately needed it.

    Reply
    • Laura

      I used to think that Paul didn’t think highly of women until I read this book and realized that he did advocate for women in ministry.

      Reply
  2. Amber

    I am going to buy her book ! Excited to try my products from femallay !

    Reply
  3. A2bbethany

    I think people tend to forget that paul wasn’t God. And while his writings are in the bible, it doesn’t mean all of them are necessarily from God. Prime example is that chapter, i think it was on sexuality and marriage. He gave his personal opinion against marriage and clealy added a disclaimer.

    Some one I listen to, who talks/teaches about biblical creation once mentioned a concept. He was talking through the story of job and his friends. He warned that you should be careful getting any beliefs out of job, because it was an accurate writing of concept, that isn’t biblical.(friends spent chapters saying that job must’ve sinned, why else would God punish him? When God speaks, he goes somewhere else completely) so I’ve always thought that concept of paul writing an opinion, not God’s unchangeable rule.(when he talks about headship) Maybe Paul is human and intended something else. He obviously elsewhere, had no trouble working with women to spread The gospel.

    I’m still thinking this one out, Because how does this theory mesh with, “all scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for”(I forget the rest by memory) obviously it’s a bit of both in my opinion… but where’s the line?
    Its ok to question and ponder, so long as we still believe that Jesus is our savior. And other core beliefs.

    Reply
    • Anonymous305

      Good point about Job!! You don’t have to discard the idea that all scripture is God-breathed to make a distinction between descriptive and prescriptive, meaning between what happened and what should happen. All scripture has a purpose, but not all scripture has the purpose of saying that you should imitate a specific character. Matthew 4:5-7 and 2 Peter 3:15-16 warn us that not all interpretations of scripture are correct, and that some are harmful.

      Reply
  4. Katydid

    One of the reasons I held on to complementarianism for so long is because I knew that once I let it go the weight of the world would be on my shoulders. Once I could no longer argue men’s roles vs women’s roles, all roles would be my responsibility and it would crush and exhaust me.

    I miss being able to stay home with my kids. I miss being able to take all say to keep my house clean and healthy, and plan and cook wonderful meals. I miss my gardens. I miss wearing dresses. I miss being well-rested and able to focus on my kids and going to church.

    Now, I am working two labor-intensive jobs ON TOP OF still being primary educator and caretaker of our children. I can no longer go to men with my “but I’m a woman” excuse and have them valiantly help me. Now, it’s, “equality, baby! Do it yourself.”

    Complementarianism was a sort of protective cushion where I wasn’t saddled with everything. The delineation kept us both solidly in complementary roles that made our home life work like a well-oiled machine. Now, we have two over-burdened fully-equals, but, yet, we’re not.

    He still has the strength and endurance of a man built up on decades of hard work, cared for by loving women to make sure he is well enough to return to work. I am still biologically female and my body wears down so much faster. I cannot keep up, yet I need to. Since leaving complementarianism and entering the workforce as an equal I have begun to age, get sickly, weaken.

    I once heard a man say that if society collapsed and we went back to hunter/gatherer/agrarian society, we’d be right back to “traditional gender roles.” He’s not wrong. I made a comment on Twitter that women cry equality until they need a dead racoon removed from the attic. Then, it’s a man’s job. I don’t see women flocking to get hired as sanitation workers, utility line clearance tree surgeons, or miners.

    Do I think forced and enforced silencing and subordination of women is Biblical? Of course not. Do I think forced roles as homemakers is Biblical? No. Do I think we are of equal value in the Kingdom of God, indeed I do. Do I think women can be leaders? Yes. But, let me tell you, equality is freaking exhausting and is killing me.

    Reply
    • A2bbethany

      Me and my husband believe we are equal, but agreed that I would only ever work outside the home, if I wanted to. I did prior to marriage and when I quit, I didn’t realize how stressed and uptight I was (PTSD in my past, and the mental things that accompany). For us, homemaker or not, isn’t a part of the equality discussion. Its a lifestyle choice, one that is individual to the couple. Sheila’s talked about the stay at home dad thing, and I don’t see it as an equality thing. (I did get bored and pick up a very low key part time thing, but it wasn’t for a financial decision)

      And the raccoon in the attic? That’s dependant on the couple too, as my mom is actually way more likely to deal with it, then to wait for my dad. He’s squeamish and she’s not.

      Reply
    • CMT

      Katydid, I don’t know you or the details of your situation but it sounds like you are in a tough position on a lot of levels. For what it’s worth, it doesn’t sound like your problem is equality. It sounds like your problem is lack of support. No one, man or woman, complementarian or egalitarian, can do it all. Men don’t do that-as you point out, men in traditional gender roles can do what they do because women cater to their needs! Being equal does not mean going it alone. If your support system is telling you that it does, they are wrong.

      I wonder if you might get some benefit out of Eve Rodsky’s fair play. I think they did a series on it in this blog awhile back. Maybe you aren’t in a position where that will help, but it might be worth a look.

      Reply
    • Anon

      “I don’t see women flocking to get hired as sanitation workers, utility line clearance tree surgeons, or miners.” Not sure what your point is here. I don’t know that many men flocking to those roles either! As for the racoon in the attic, we don’t have racoons over here, but if we did, I would definitely be the one dealing with it (fortunately, dead birds or rats are the worst we get here!). My husband is super squeamish. He’s also very unpractical, so I do all the DIY, IT etc that are supposed to be the man’s job.

      And you don’t have to both go out to work to be equal either. My cousin has had two periods staying home looking after the house and the kids while his wife worked and two when he went out to work and she stayed home. Now the kids are older, they’re both working part time so they both have similar amounts of free time for church work and family. My cousin didn’t become ‘less equal’ than his wife when he stayed home any more than she became ‘less equal’ when she did.

      I don’t think your problem is being treated as an equal – it’s that you’re NOT being treated as an equal. You are basically holding down THREE jobs (because running a home and caring for kids is most definitely a job). How many jobs does your husband have? If your workload is not being split 50/50, then you are not equals – you are bearing an unfair share of the burden.

      Reply
    • Wild Honey

      What you describe sounds more like a lifestyle choice (or finances dictating a lifestyle) than egalitarianism.

      I’m in an egalitarian marriage, as a SAHM married to a go-to-work-daddy. For us, that means we make major decisions jointly and have equal down-time. I’d describe my parents as egalitarian for the same reasons, but in their situation both worked outside the home (mom part-time all year long, dad full-time as a teacher during the school year with summers off). And I’d call the one couple I know with a stay-at-home-dad egalitarian (not matriarchal!) for the same reason.

      It’s not so much who has paid employment and who doesn’t. Otherwise, what would you call marriages where a husband is disabled to the point of not being able to work? Or where couples are retired? Or they both work in the mission field full-time and don’t have kids?

      Reply
  5. Avonlea

    I believe there are some things that could be improved about the evangelical churches view of women and men and their roles. I don’t, however, believe that allows us to doubt the Bible as being an inerrant word of God. When we place problems within the church as being problems with God or the Bible, we fool ourselves.

    Reply
    • CMT

      Avonlea, maybe I’m misreading you but it sounds like you are assuming that The Making of Biblical Womanhood argues that there is something wrong with God/the Bible’s teaching about women. Having read it and given it a lot of thought, I can say that really isn’t the argument. The book does argue, as this blog does, that there is something deeply wrong with modern evangelicalism’s INTERPRETATION of what God/the Bible teaches about gender. Those are two very different things. This probably isn’t the place to debate biblical inerrancy, but as I see it that concept isn’t even relevant to the discussion.

      Reply
  6. CMT

    Tea and tent pegs hahaha!Got to hear this.

    MoBW rocked my world, and I loved this interview. Have been meaning to read JaJW too, should probably get to that!

    Reply
  7. Nathan

    Yes, the problem is mostly how we interpret or even remember the words of the bible.

    The two biggest examples I can think of right now are when Paul said that the husband is the head of the wife. Sheila and Keith have pointed out that the word Paul used translates to “head”, but it means supporter, provider, champion, etc. It doesn’t mean authority figure, king, etc.

    And second, the story of Adam and Eve and the fruit of the tree. Many modern retellings have it that Eve was all by herself when the serpent tempted her, then she ate the fruit, then went out and found Adam and used her “wicked womanly wiles” to tempt Adam. Some retellings even have that Adam didn’t eat the fruit at all. Eve ate it, and God kicked both of them out. The actual story has Adam and Eve right there together and eating the fruit together.

    Reply
    • Laura

      You’re point on about the husband as the head of the wife. Many people then interpret that to mean that the husband is the head of the household which is NOT found in the Bible. They also interpret that wives are to submit to their husbands in everything as that the husband gets the final say on decisions. Again, these verses in Ephesians 5 are not about decision-making which complementarians want to interpret as.

      Reply
  8. Wild Honey

    Regarding the creation order… One can just as easily say that Eve, being second, was the better version. How often do we try out a new recipe or knitting pattern or project and have to work the kinks out the first time around, with the second time being the much improved version? After all, God looked at Adam and said he was “incomplete.” Didn’t say that about Eve, did He?

    Reply
    • Anon

      There’s an old joke that goes when God created Adam, He stepped back, scratched His chin, and said “I can do better than that.” Not to disparage men in any way, of course, but you do often need a rough draft before you make a masterpiece! 😀

      Reply
      • CMT

        I mean… bugs and fish come before humans in the 7 days of creation, right? What do we make of that?

        Reply
        • Laura

          That humans must submit to bugs and fish… Love this!

          Reply
  9. Anonymous305

    SO MANY thoughts…

    Back when women were considered “deformed men”, how were they sometimes able to birth “non-deformed men” (male babies)?

    When she asked why less than everyone saw the similarity between “equal but different” for gender and “separate but equal” for race, I had to ask myself why I didn’t notice. Probably because the harm is less visible, so I didn’t compare the rhetoric. The inequality of racial segregation was visible, but women aren’t physically segregated from men in most of society, only in the pastorate of some churches. The harm of oppressive teaching about gender is very real in hearts and minds, but the visible effects weren’t similar enough to Jim Crow for me to compare the arguments…until the similarities in justifications were brought to my attention…

    I NEVER would have guessed about women having more spiritual equality in the Middle Ages because I grew up with the impression that all of history until 1960 limited women to being only wives and mothers, but I’m glad to learn that’s not all that happened.

    This also reminded me of the different reactions to the Mars Hill podcasts because some said the narrators were too soft on Mark Driscoll, that even his “kindness” was actually manipulation, but others said they were too harsh on complementarianism and that they were wrong to judge a philosophy by its abuses. I would agree with the statement “don’t judge a philosophy by its abuses” if I could think of many beneficial effects of complementarianism, but I can’t think of many…can anyone else?

    Reply
    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      Yes, when you actually look at the fruit of real complementarianism–where the husband makes the decisions and the wife has little say–it’s universally bad. Traditional gender roles aren’t bad–not at all. Believing that you HAVE to live out those gender roles, though? That’s when things go downhill. So a SAHM arrangement can work fine, unless you both think that’s what she HAS to do. That’s what our study found, anyway. And most people who say they are complementarian actually function as egalitarians, and share decision making power. When he actually does start making the decisions, the divorce rate increases seven times. I talk about it in this post. The studies that complementarians usually use to talk about how they fare better are based less on complementarianism and more on gender roles. And, like I said, gender roles are fine. It’s only believing that they’re prescribed by God that’s the problem. So they’re not really measuring how couples fare with male only leadership, but simply how couples fare in single breadwinner homes. That’s not the same thing.

      Reply
      • Laura

        It’s funny how these complementarians like Piper and Grudem love to push the whole gender role narrative, yet they fail to remember the Proverbs 31 woman who was obviously a business owner and Deborah who was a judge.

        Reply
        • Anon

          How about Miriam, who was a prophetess? Or Esther, a queen who saved her entire race from extinction? Priscilla, one of the leaders of the early church? Or Lydia, a business owner whose primary clientele was royalty? Or Abigail, who saved King David from making a terrible mistake? There are so many women in leadership positions in Scripture, and it galls me how they’re constantly reduced to “servant” positions when clearly that’s not the case.

          Reply
          • Laura

            You’re right, there were lots of women in the Bible who contributed greatly to the kingdom of God and I don’t think most of them were defined by their roles as “wife and mother.”

          • Anon

            Exactly! Heck, Lydia was a wife and mother and she owned a successful business! Deborah was a wife (and possibly a mother), and she was the ruler of Israel, for Pete’s sake!

        • CMT

          And Junia, and Mary Magdalene, and Mary of Bethany. Back to the OT and you have Rahab, Jael… they’re not exactly poster children for traditional womanhood haha

          Reply
          • Anon

            Good for you for bringing up Rahab! A prostitute is listed in the Hebrews “hall of faith” as the woman who saved Joshua’s spies. And she was honored for her faith with a place among the Israelites – and in the ancestry of Jesus. Not to mention Mary Magdalene has the honor of being the first person Jesus appeared to after His resurrection. I think people forget that, too: He appeared to a woman first, not any of His disciples.

          • Anon

            Yes, I love the genealogy, and especially the women who are listed in it – Tamar, who pretended to be a prostitute so she could get pregnant by her father-in-law, Rahab, who WAS a prostitute, Ruth the outcast/alien/foreigner – it’s as though God is pointing out that He can transform any life and use it in amazing, unexpected ways, even the lives of women who, by the standards of their day, would have been regarded as worthless because of what they had done/where they came from.

    • Laura

      Only two things I can think of that I’ve heard some women in church circles tell me about their husbands being the main decision-maker is this:
      1. If his decision turns out to be a bad one, then he takes full responsibility for it.
      2. She feels relieve that she doesn’t have to make decisions. This only works if he’s a great husband and loves his wife like Christ loved the church and/or she doesn’t like making decisions.

      So do these two examples give women an excuse not behave like adults? As a single woman, I have to make decisions regarding my finances, job, and everything else in my life. I admit that when I lived alone, I felt the burdens of adulthood and yearned for a partner who would make decisions alongside me. I didn’t necessarily want him to be the main decision-maker; I just did not want to bear these burdens alone. I still wanted to be part of the decision-making process.

      Reply
      • Anonymous305

        That makes sense. The only benefit I thought of for women was being 1st off the Titanic!!

        Reply
      • MrsTRP

        This never makes sense to me, tho. How does a husband take complete responsibility? If an investment goes wrong, does not the joint bank account take a hit? If he decides to not get the car maintenanced, does not the whole family have to sit on the side of the road when they break down on the way to Grandma’s? If consequences have to be shared, so should decision-making. This “he takes responsibility” is a justification that does not bear out in reality.
        Seems like along with point two that it’s about blame shifting. The wife doesn’t want to feel guilty for making bad decisions, so the husband takes the blame. I think it has more to do with guilt & shame than not wanting to adult because the wife often has no qualms fixing the problem later or bearing the real-life consequences as long as she is blameless for the decision.
        Thinking about myself, this would be born out of my personality exacerbated by Christian striving for sinlessness.

        Reply
        • Anon

          According to the books I got handed to read growing up, it’s more about the fact that we women are supposed to be unable to cope with the stress of decision making and that we get more upset by making wrong decisions – the idea is that God knew we would fall apart if we were expected to make decisions so He gave the job to men instead. (No one has ever explained to me how I didn’t fall apart from decision making during more than 25 years of adult single life!)

          It’s the thing that frustrates me most about complementarianism. If someone tells me that my husband should make the decisions or fix things round the house or always be the biggest income earner because that’s how God wants marriages to be, whatever you think of their views, at least they’re based on the belief that they need to live that way to be obedient to God. But when they start telling me that God wants these things because ‘all men are like this and all women are like that’…that’s just ridiculous, because I know SO MANY couples who don’t fit into this stereotype.

          So if you believe it, then just get on with living it – but please don’t use stupid and totally inaccurate ‘facts’ to ‘justify’ it! If this really is the way God wants marriages to be, then He doesn’t have to have a ‘reason’ for it – He is God, and if He tells us to do something, our job is just to do it, not hang around looking for a ‘good reason’ to do it.

          Reply
          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            Exactly! Gender essentialism is just so blantantly untrue.

  10. Jo R

    In the “coed sports league” of marriage and the church, men have made themselves sole definers of the rules and sole referees during the playing of the game, leaving women no voice at any point in the proceedings. Yeah, that situation won’t be ripe for abuse.

    This one-sided rule-making and refereeing is what has allowed men to think their sole job in marriage is to bring home a paycheck, because “all that other stuff” is just “women’s work.” So when a husband spends his evenings and weekends doing what he likes because it’s his “time off from work” and he “needs to relax,” then because men make the rules in church, which organization turns around and gives men the sole authority to make the rules in their own homes, wives are simply not allowed to even mention the idea, for example, that they did not marry mere sperm donors but actually wanted partners in life. Such a husband never even considers that running a home and being a parent is a twenty-four-a-day job—and when does the WIFE get an evening or a weekend off? Such an idea never even comes into his mind, because he’s the king and has made his ruling. The “little woman” need not venture to offer an opinion, let alone act against his edict, thank you very much.

    The fact that men won’t hold themselves to a higher sexual-behavior standard than that of monkeys doesn’t speak well for men in general, and it should definitely be disqualifying for a leader in any organization, church or home.

    And we women have been putting up with this crap for way too long, having been brainwashed into thinking that motherhood is the highest thing women can do, so we’ve got to take whatever man we can get before that clock stops ticking. No one in their right mind would suggest that fatherhood is the pinnacle of a man’s life. Men are seldom introduced as mere husbands and fathers. Why are women limited by their biology?

    The late Prince Philip said that he was the only man in the UK who didn’t get to give his own name to his own children. Welcome to what women have historically had to put up with not just for their children, but for themselves upon marriage.

    Reply
    • CMT

      Jo, I know this does happen, I’ve seen it. The systematic enabling of terrible male behavior is a real issue.

      It makes me grateful for the guys like my own husband. He wants a real partner in life too. It doesn’t bother him that I have a lot more education than he does, and it (mostly!) doesn’t bother me that he makes more money. We support each other’s careers, make decisions together, and both spend as much quality time as we can with our kids.

      We have always felt like oddballs at church though. My husband never gets asked how HE manages to balance his job and our family, but me? All the time. The family “ministries” always seem to be centered around moms and kids. We couldn’t even go to the preschooler or homeschool group at the local mega because they were moms only!

      Even at places that don’t actively promote strict complementarianism, we have found that people’s expectations seem to be very “traditional.” Much like the rest of society. As Beth Allison Barr said on the episode, it’s not something that makes the church unique.

      Reply
      • Sheila Wray Gregoire

        Very true, CMT! And I love hearing about good husbands. We need to talk about that more. My husband is amazing too! So many men who are just good guys, who love Jesus, who love their wives. It’s totally possible. So I don’t know why these pastors talk about it like it’s impossible.

        Reply
    • Anon

      Have you ever seen the Looney Tunes short “Wild Wife?” This was made in 1954, if I remember right, and it’s a GREAT takedown of that sexist attitude toward stay-at-home wives and mothers – and a good showcase that yes, being a full-time wife and mother IS a job, not the laze-fest some men think it is! Here’s the link: https://vimeo.com/421254106

      Reply

Submit a Comment

Your email address will not be published.