What LakePointe Church and Pastor Josh Howerton Think about Women

by | Apr 12, 2024 | Faith | 103 comments

Josh Howerton has made terribly degrading comments about women and sex from the pulpit.

His teaching on sex and marriage has been problematic.

And I seem to be in the middle of it. Because of that, I’ve been sent a ton of problematic things about Lakepointe from a lot of people who care about Lakepointe and are frustrated that their concerns are being ignored. I wanted to write this post so that there’s a central place where all of these concerns are listed. I don’t want to keep dwelling on this, but I feel as if I’ve been sent so much information, and I don’t know what to do with it. Putting it one place, where Google can find it, seems like the best move. I’ll continue to update this post if people send me more things, rather than starting a new post. 

Here’s how everything got started for me.

In late March 2024, I posted a clip of “advice” that Josh Howerton gave about the wedding night:

Across all platforms, that clip was seen by about 2,500,000 people. News sites picked up the story, as did Christian sites

The discussion around this was fierce for about a week, and during that week, multiple people reached out to me with concerns about the church. They sent me other sermons that Josh had done where he had made similarly terrible comments; they sent me emails they had sent to the church that had been ignored. They told me about issues with staff NDAs; issues with how they gutted the women’s ministry at the church but put in big screen TVs for tailgating parties watching ESPN. 

Frankly, I don’t know what to do with all the information I’ve been sent other than publish it here, so it’s all in one place. 

I want this to be a perpetual post about Lakepointe and Josh Howerton

I am not a journalist, and I don’t want to write anymore about this. But I do want people to be able to share their stories in a place that is easily accessible by search engines, rather than just posting this on social media where it will quickly be lost.

So I will share what has been sent to me so far, but I will continue to add to this post if people have other things they want shared.

There is so much heartache among people who have left Lakepointe, their home church, where they raised their kids and had their whole social support. But they felt they couldn’t go anymore when women were treated this way, or when real concerns were swept under the rug.

My prayer is that the elders of Lakepointe will stop caring just about numbers and money, but also care about the people who are being hurt, about their role in discipleship and caring for the sheep. I pray they will realize that church is not just about entertaining people, but about leading them closer to Jesus, and the quest for numbers can often get in the way of that. 

Other Things I’ve Written About Josh Howerton

Full disclosure before I start: Josh Howerton has been on my radar for two years now, before this clip was sent to me by Jay Stringer. Other people keep sending me clips and issues, and I haven’t talked about them all. But I have talked about some, including:

Josh frequently jokes inappropriately from the pulpit

This was not the first instance.

Remember that at Lakepointe, children’s ministry ends after grade 5. So 11-year-olds and up are in the service.

In this sermon he told this joke, while also miming holding a woman’s breasts based on Song of Solomon and making a “that’s what she said” joke. (I have other concerns with this sermon, but those are the ones that women have sent to me).

Again, note that he is insinuating that men desire sex and women don’t, further normalizing women’s lack of desire (instead of exploring WHY she may not want sex, or realizing that many women want sex more than their husbands).

Many women have said that he repeats this joke with regularity. Here’s another instance, this time from 2019 (you can find it around the 36:00 mark). 

He makes such jokes freqently. At the Christmas 2023 service, he opened his sermon with a joke about an ugly woman, and later joked about 50 Shades of Grey while sitting in the audience, with two children behind him. 

He puts his wife in awkward, sexual situations during sermons.

This, and one further down, is difficult to talk about, because I don’t want to call out Jana Howerton personally. She is married to a man who is teaching on sex in a lopsided fashion, and that is not her fault.

However, many women from Lakepointe who wrote to me were very concerned with how Josh talks about Jana publicly and talks about thier sex lives, as this clip shows. In context, Jana is sharing difficult, personal struggles about her infertility, when Josh interrupts her (if the video doesn’t go to the right place, start around 23:50):

The woman who sent this to me said that her blood was boiling, and this was the last straw for her. After trying to raise issues and being ignored, she walked out after this sermon and never went back.

Josh Howerton has been called out for the wedding night “joke” before

Numerous Lakepointe members on social media said that they have heard Josh Howerton give this wedding day/wedding night advice multiple times in sermons.

He has been warned against it by many people.

One woman wrote this to him in an email on October 29, 2021:

My husband and I emailed Steve Hardin and Ethan Wright a few weeks ago about the Marriage Conference i.e., the Evans’ sex talk. I can provide the details from that email if you desire, but overall my husband and I believe that the sex conversation was severely unbiblical and potentially damaging to women. (if you need a source of guidance I highly recommend the Great Sex Rescue .)

We also have concerns about a joke you told in a recent sermon about a woman doing things her husband wanted (“whatever he wanted”) on the wedding night. This could really be triggering for women who experience trauma around sex, even in marraige. (Again, above-mentioned book or anything by Sheila Wray Gregoire would be a good resource to explore the reasons why women cannot or do not do anything her husband asks in the bedroom. There are ample podcasts and blogs from Sheila).

Additionally, last week, I was in my Life Group with just women. And out of five women, all said that Josh “always tells jokes about marriage, or women” and “does his wife approve these jokes?”. So as you can see, it is a pattern that women are picking up on. My guess, and my hope is that you would not want that to be your reputation among women at LP. I also recall a blonde joke you told in the past months. I’m starting to feel pretty uncomfortable even coming there as a female (who is also blonde).

I do not know you personally nor do I know your character so all I know is what you speak from the pulpit. My aim is not to defame your character or to assume that you have poor character. However, from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. Why do you need to say these things and what is in your heart that is driving that “humor”? As you likely know, Ephesians 5 tells us not to have any obscenity or coarse joking. 3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.

I believe these issues mentioned deserve correction, repentance and apology to your congregation. As for the marriage conference, I realize there are some responsibilities that fall on RightNow, and there is only so much you can control about what has been said by others, but your staff interviewed them and your church hosted it and I believe it should also be publicly corrected.

As your sister in Christ, I admonish you to look inside yourself and your church body to correct these things and be above reproach.

Here’s the screenshot of the email:

Email to Josh Howerton about Jokes

Here is the only response she ever received:

Josh Howerton response to jokes

Josh actually did respond to another woman who called him out publicly on social media for not responding to emails admonishing him to stop giving horrible advice about women doing anything their husbands say in the bedroom. 

Josh Howerton response to jokes

This particular “joke” has been brought to Josh’s attention numerous times over the years.

He said he would prayerfully consider it. But he is still repeating it, despite women speaking up. Julie Roys documented this more extensively.

Josh defends being crude in sermons

When criticized at his former church, The Bridge, for being crude, Josh responded with this:

2) Faithful preachers should avoid two errors: 1) Shying away from language that matches the Bible’s intensity out of a people-pleasing fear of criticism, and 2) going too far and becoming coarse “shock jocks” for immature attention. I will make this observation: if you go too far, you’ll always get criticized, but nobody ever seems to get criticized for not going far enough.

3) We must, without sinning, become all things to all men in order to save some….

I’m not just preaching to lifelong Christians who have grown up in the church. I’m simultaneously trying to preach to the HUNDREDS of unchurched drink-a-beer-and-watch-a-game guys in Bridge services every week right now.

Josh Howerton

About the Skubula Happens Shirts

It is unclear how this rationale excuses the comments he made. They certainly do appeal to a certain type of man–the kind that has a pornified mindset. But the problem is that this mindset isn’t corrected. And he’s willing to sacrifice women in the process, many of whom have left the church over his comments in sermons about women and sex.

In his sermon on April 7, he did apologize if his words hurt people. But he also said that Jesus was offensive, and so Josh will use offensive language, and if you don’t like it, Lakepointe likely isn’t for you. Here’s part of the sermon, starting at minute 46 of this video.

Please note: Jesus offended because He was fighting injustice, not because he was perpetuating it. In all of the examples that Josh used, Jesus was trying to upend unjust power structures that marginalized people, including women. Josh instead uses the pulpit to perpetuate that marginalization and objectification. 

For more commentary on Josh’s words here, please see this thread on X. 

He also encouraged his wife to “repent” of having low desire

This clip was brought up repeatedly in the aftermath of the wedding night video. When people were defending Josh, saying he doesn’t really feel this way and he’d never tell women this, many replied with this clip from a Q&A that Josh and Jana did (and that we analyzed for our podcast; the talk was not all bad). 


As someone who has conducted the largest survey of evangelical women’s marriages and sex lives for our book The Great Sex Rescue, the reminder to initiate is not necessarily a bad one. But note here that this is portrayed as sin she needed to “repent” of, but the underlying problem was that she was exhausted from carrying so much. Nowhere did they mention that Josh should share some of that load, or that being tired is a legitimate reason to not want sex.

Please see this podcast, and The Great Sex Rescue, for more on issues regarding frequency and libido

Josh Howerton sexualizes himself on social media

Posting “workout” clothes pics happened several times, as these show. Note his caption on the first one, telling people that he’s not a piece of meat and to look at his face, acknowledging he realizes what he is doing:

Josh teaches that women must not set boundaries for men’s bad behavior

He says that you can’t make an unrespectable man respectable by disrespcting him. Instead, “give him a crown and he’ll become a king.”

This is actually terrible advice for men who are treating their wives badly. Rewarding men for disprespectful behavior does not make them act properly; it enables sin, and places the responsibility for correcting a husband’s emotional abuse on the wife. This clip went viral (over 3,000,000 views), with many pointing out the problems with it. After three weeks, they deleted all comments on Instagram and turned them off because they had so many women talk about how this teaching enables and justifies abuse. 

Instead of accepting criticism that he may have been wrong, Josh doubles down, and frames the problem as women are not willing to accept correction from their pastor. Women, he believes, must maintain a posture of humility and accept correction.

In this Facebook live, he responds to the criticism by criticizing women for not being able to accept correction. He says that it is imperative that pastors keep teaching difficult things for women to hear, and that all of us accepts correction. Here’s a clip; you can see the whole thing here, starting around minute 18. 

Josh Howerton also mocks the disabled in his sermons

One mom reported to me that her child, who has a limb disorder, was greeted at children’s ministry with the comment, “what sin did you do to deserve this?”

The child, who has been welcomed well at school, in extracurricular activities, and more, did not want to attend Sunday School or children’s activities after that, and felt very marginalized. Children referred to the child as “scary” and “creepy” and called the child a monster.

So the mother started taking the child into the service instead.

Then one Sunday, Josh Howerton made a “joke” about a family member’s limb difference and said he walked around like a Frankenstein.

10,000 people around the child laughed, as the child sunk deeper into the chair.

Here’s another instance where he did this, just last week (April 7):

A Director in the Counseling Program agrees with the pornified view of sex

When the hubbub over the clip started, Casey Christian, the Director of Recovery at Lakepointe, left this comment here: 

Casey Christian counselor Lakepointe pornified

Here is how Lakepointe describes his job:

Casey Christian, Director of Recovery, is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker. He received his Master of Science in Social Work from the University of Texas at Arlington in 1997. His areas of practice include working with families, adolescents, individuals, and couples Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT). Areas of specialization include: addictions & recovery, working with premarital and marital counseling, divorce recovery, affair recovery, blended families, trauma, same-sex attraction, depression, grief, anxiety, and life transitions.

Counseling program at Lakepointe

When I posted about this on Twitter, I was told that his social media is filled with conspiracy theories and posting of problematic people like Andrew Tate and others.

What this means is that if a man wants counseling for recovery from pornography, he’s going to be sent to see a man who doesn’t think there’s anything wrong with portraying a woman as a glorified sex doll, and who regularly follows and reads those who endorse misogyny and conspiracies. 

Under Josh howerton, lakepointe church’s women’s ministry has been gutted.

Before COVID, Unveiled, the women’s ministry at the Rockwall campus, was apparently the fastest growing ministry in the church. Even before Josh came, there was a discrepancy between how the church handled women’s events and men’s events. At Rockwall, the women’s group Unveiled met in a large classroom, while Man Church met in the main sanctuary (even though the numbers were similar). Man Church hired big name speakers and paid them well (10K at times) and they fed very attendee a burger and chips and a drink. Unveiled’s entire annual budget was $2400 (this was eventually partially rectified–until COVID). They could only afford $400 for a female speaker, while the men were hiring professional athletes to speak.

One woman reported to me:

After they eliminated Unveiled, the church said they would offer women’s ministry as: Bible study groups and two yearly events that would be the same across all campuses. Everything had to be easy to duplicate since Josh regularly announced when he first started leading that the new goal was to have a Lakepointe campus within 25 miles of everyone in north Texas. 🚩🚩🚩 Lakepointe hosted IF and Gather Moms events the first year. Then just Gather Moms the next year. Now nothing since 2022. It has been a calculated and covert elimination of women’s ministry completely. Our women were SO HURT. BEFORE this recent and blatant abuse.

Though they haven’t had women’s events, they have installed large screen TVs so people can have tailgating parties while watching ESPN. So they’re trying to appeal to men while ignoring women, which has caused a lot of heartache.

The Unveiled women’s ministry used to also do a clothing swap that served 1000 women. When leadership decided to abandon Unveiled, it got rid of that service to the community as well.

As a woman told me, “The women’s ministry leadership team was also eliminated so there’s no support system at Lakepointe for women who want to grow in their gifts or learn how to lead or teach well.” 

Again, this was not a problem with lack of attendance of lack of women wanting to serve. The women’s ministry was thriving until Josh came. Then, after reopening after COVID, Josh decided to eliminate it.

Lakepointe eliminated a thriving DivorceCare ministry

Lakepointe Church used to have a ministry for women who were divorced, most of whom had left abusive relationships. For many women, this was their main source of social support, and was incredibly healing.

Though the ministry was well-attended, and had willing and eager leadership, it was eliminated and had to move off-campus because leadership was afraid it was “encouraging divorce.” 

With both DivorceCare and the women’s ministry, the problem was not lack of volunteers or lack of interest. Both were thriving. The problem was that leadership didn’t want them.

Lakepointe Church is worried about being “feminized.”

In their statement about gender roles (which predated Josh Howerton), they said:

We also believe that it is important that the men of our church not abdicate their responsibility to use their own God-given gifts of teaching and thereby contribute to a feminized perception of the church that is only for women and children.

Lakepointe Church Elders

Women in Ministry

I think, given the sexualized nature of the sermons, and the elimination of the women’s ministry, and the elevation of those who support manosphere leaders, it’s safe to say that this doesn’t need to be a concern.

Lakepointe Church and Josh Howerton squash dissent

The social media accounts and Josh Howerton himself are quick to delete ANY comments that are critical, in real time, and block the authors of those comments. Critical comments rarely last more than five minutes, meaning they must have people working around the clock to manage the social media perception.

I have had multiple accounts of Lakepointe members saying that staff members watch the social media accounts of those critical of Lakepointe, and then call in any leaders/volunteers or other staff members who even “like” a post. 

It looks like Josh Howerton plagiarized his apology

On April 7, 2024, Josh apologized to anyone in his church who was hurt by his wedding night “joke.” But Julie Roys was alerted to a sermon from Joby Martin in Florida that sounds remarkably similar. 

Look at the side by side videos here. 

Other issues with Lakepointe and Josh Howerton’s leadership

Many, many other issues were brought to my attention, but given that my job on this blog is on dismantling toxic teaching on marriage and sex, I thought I’d only go into detail on the ones that fit with that mission.

I will mention some serious concerns, though, in case others want to look into them.

  1. Several said they were concerned with the size of Josh’s salary, and the fact that his family lives in a $1.4 million dollar house, when the median house price for that area is $440,000.
  2. In addition, a large number of employees and very high profile members have left the church recently, primarily over Josh’s unwillingness to listen to critique. The employees have been forced to sign NDAs, and so cannot talk about their experiences.
  3. But the biggest one that was mentioned, over and over again, was the blatant and ongoing plagiarism in just about every sermon. If you listen to his sermon, keep Google open and type in his memorable phrases and see what comes up. Josh openly admits to plagiarism, and says that it is an accepted and good practice for preachers.

I hope and pray that Lakepointe leaders take action.

Women do not exist to be the butt of pastor’s jokes. Jesus treated women with respect; pastors should as well.

Spreading harmful stereotypes and normalizing toxic views from the pulpit is not okay. Creating a culture where women and the disabled are devalued is not okay.

If there are other things that you think need to be added, put them in the comments and I will add them. I hope those who have left Lakepointe, or who are trying to make change, will find this synopsis helpful.

To Employees thinking of leaving Lakepointe

A commenter left this, and I think it’s important:

For anyone thinking about leaving employment at Lakepointe– please know that you do not have to sign an NDA when you resign. They cannot make you , no matter what they say. You can resign and walk away.

If you are offered money to sign an NDA and you need that money to move on, know that you can negotiate the terms of the NDA as well as the amount of money they are offering. They are coercing you into an NDA because they are terrified of what you will say. They are very uncomfortable in this flipped dynamic and will pressure you to sign immediately. Anytime anyone tells you you have to make a decision today– you cannot trust them.

Make your decision carefully and ideally with the help of a lawyer from your local area. Many lawyers offer a free or low-cost initial consultation.

Written by

Sheila Wray Gregoire


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Sheila Wray Gregoire

Author at Bare Marriage

Sheila is determined to help Christians find biblical, healthy, evidence-based help for their marriages. And in doing so, she's turning the evangelical world on its head, challenging many of the toxic teachings, especially in her newest book The Great Sex Rescue. She’s an award-winning author of 8 books and a sought-after speaker. With her humorous, no-nonsense approach, Sheila works with her husband Keith and daughter Rebecca to create podcasts and courses to help couples find true intimacy. Plus she knits. All the time. ENTJ, straight 8

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  1. "Bad, Ungodly" Woman

    He loves to belittle people moving from more liberal areas to Texas. Mocks his brother for living in New York. His favorite is to constantly take jabs at people from California. And it is constant. The worst offense was on Good Friday, March 29, 2024, when he told people moving to Texas from California not to vote. He made sure not to slip up the rest of the weekend, but I happened to be in attendance for the March 29 service.

    • Lisa

      That is disturbing. I live in Idaho and pastors here make similar “jokes.”

      • "Bad, Ungodly" woman

        Josh also likes to demonize use of mental health medications. As someone who would have succeeded decades ago in killing myself had it not been for good counseling and anti-depressants, I’ve always had a hard time with the narrative that I’m depressed because I don’t pray enough or have enough faith. I experienced significant trauma in childhood and as such, my brain is just skewed to depression and needs more than prayer to keep me alive. Before Josh took over, Steve actually did a few sermons where he tried to remove the stigma of psychiatric medication use and Christianity, assuring people like me that we were not failures in our walk with Jesus. In the last 4 years I’ve heard so many sermons about how wrong mental health help is. Emails go unanswered.

        • Nessie

          Wow, that is so evil and damaging! I had a dear friend years ago who stopped taking her meds bc of that kind of messaging and shortly thereafter tried taking her life- because her body needed those meds! Thank God she was unsuccessful!

          God created people with gifts of healing, including the knowledge to develop and then use meds. Why wouldn’t God want us to make use of what He created??

          It’s amazing the damage one person in a position of power can do to a huge church like Lakepointe!

        • Angharad

          Are these all sermons you are hearing at Lakepointe? If so, can I suggest you think about finding another church? Not every church is going to criticise you for having mental health issues – in fact, a good church will walk alongside you through them – far from blaming you for seeking medical help, Christians who are treating you the way God wants you to be treated are more likely to say something like “are you ok for transport to your appointment? Do you need a lift? Would you like me to come with you for emotional support or do you prefer to go on your own?”

          I’m hesitant to tell someone they need to leave their church, because they may have good reasons to be there – but when you are hearing repeated messages that damage your health, it’s good to at least consider whether the time is right to move on.

          And can I encourage you to rethink the name you’ve chosen to comment under too – Jesus sees his followers as chosen, royal and holy – God’s special possession (1 Peter 2 v 9). Don’t let the words of men define you – look at who you are in Christ. He loves you and you are precious in his sight x

    • Exwifeofasexaddict

      Why would you say something like that on Good Friday? There’s no need to be talking about voting in a Good Friday service.

      • Willow

        I rode my bike up to a mountaintop sunrise Easter service this year that is hosted by a parks foundation. Each year, a different church takes the service, which is supposed to be a “nondenominational” one.

        This year’s service was so cringey! The pastor railed on and on about sin, especially male sexual sin, and male headship, and abortion. He specifically stated that Christianity (‘sorry, ladies’) is explicitly by, for, and about men, and that God chose to come as a man for a reason.

        I wanted to get up and leave, but the exits were all blocked by burly, bearded men who were “elders” in this church’s community. I then realized that every participant on stage, including all the musicians, were male – the pastor stated only men could be part of leading services.

        It seemed from start to finish like the most bizarre (and offensive) way to celebrate Christ’s rising from the dead – a defeat over all sin, a sacrifice and triumph on behalf of all people, everywhere.

        How these people profess and call themselves “Christians” is beyond me.

        • Nessie

          Could you alert the parks foundation about how that sermon was dangerous and possibly inflammatory? And blocking fire exits? It seems like a service being open to the public should not be allowed to use public areas sanctioned by the parks foundation if marginalizing people groups, especially when lying about being non-denominational… or at least encourage the parks foundation to learn more about the group coming so they can share that info so those who might attend can make an informed decision?

          That “church” conveniently ignores the words of Paul when he shared, “there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus…”

        • Sheila Wray Gregoire

          That’s horrific! Wow.

  2. Lisa

    Thank you so much for compiling this all in one place.

    For anyone thinking about leaving employment at Lakepointe– please know that you do not have to sign an NDA when you resign. They cannot make you , no matter what they say. You can resign and walk away.

    If you are offered money to sign an NDA and you need that money to move on, know that you can negotiate the terms of the NDA as well as the amount of money they are offering. They are coercing you into an NDA because they are terrified of what you will say. You hold a lot of power and they are accustomed to holding power over you. They are very uncomfortable in this flipped dynamic and will pressure you to sign immediately. Anytime anyone tells you you have to make a decision today– you cannot trust them.

    If you violate the terms of an NDA, the only thing they can sue you for is the amount of money specifically tied to the NDA.

    Make your decision carefully and ideally with the help of a lawyer from your local area. Many lawyers offer a free or low-cost initial consultation.

    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      This is helpful. I’m going to put it in the post!

      • Elf

        Sheila, have you had this advice vetted by a lawyer?
        Is it wise to endorse this without any knowledge of Texan Labor laws, or the employment contracts of church employees?

        • Sheila Wray Gregoire

          I think the advice to talk to a lawyer before you sign something is always a good thing! And in general, when you are pressured to sign quickly, it’s not in your favour.

    • Boone

      Don’t sign anything no matter what you’re threatened with!!!! They can’t hold your last paycheck until you do. Don’t take any extra money for leaving. It will be regarded as consideration for your signing the NDA. They will still claim consideration even if you don’t sign the NDA. If you violate an NDA they can sue you for whatever damages are specified
      In the NDA, not just the consideration amount. It can and will get very expensive. You’re best bet is to walk away without notice.

      • Boone

        I should state that I am licensed to practice law in TN and not TX. You should consult a TX prior to taking any action. That said contract laws are very similar from state to state.


    Wow. Just Wow. I looks like he has abandoned the teaching of the gospel (if he ever did) and made the church a boys club. My heart aches for the women of that church and the ministries that have been eliminated. I pray that the elders will open their eyes and see the immense damage this is doing to the gospel. So very sad.

  4. Jo R

    So not only does he make fun of / minimizing a woman’s pain when she is experiencing infertility, which I’m guessing is the main function of women in **his** world, he’s making fun of / minimizing HIS OWN WIFE’S pain.

    How exactly is that Christlike? How does that apply Ephesians 5, which I’m guessing he love-love-loves, and its commands to husbands to love their wives the way Christ loves the church, to love his wife’s body the way he loves his own?

    How does that maltreatment demonstrate that little, tiny, insignificant rule of “do unto others,” even if the “other” is the mere, useful, household appliance otherwise known as a wife?

    How did that statement make all the other couples feel who are suffering or have suffered from infertility? That their plight is just a punchline for a wife’s sexuality and how damaging infertility is to it? Would he have been so jokey if he were suffering from erectile dysfunction, or if he were not producing sperm properly?

    Where’s the compassion for his sheep? How does his yet another of his “jokes” exemplify “So if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it”? Or does he not even care about the people *inside* the building either, as long as he can get his, er, ego stroked by the laughs?

    And here’s the emoji.


    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      Yes, it’s really saying, “If you’re suffering from infertility, I will assume it’s because the wife doesn’t find her husband attractive.”

    • Jo R

      Random thoughts:

      With “pastors” like this, who needs Satan?

      The phone calls are coming from inside the house.

      I can just imagine Jesus mocking an infertile woman. Yep, yep, there He is. Then he laughs at her for good measure. And tells her it’s her fault. And asks when was the last time she had sex with her husband. And gleefully points out how all her friends and female family members have lots of children. And suggests that she isn’t much of a woman, huh? Oh, and if she ever does have kids, she should know she isn’t special or anything, because that’s just what women do.

      Yeah, #notmyjesus.

      • Rose

        Everything laid out here is concerning but the counselor who is openly an Andrew Tate fan really made my jaw drop. Wow

    • Amy A

      Man I always love your comments, Jo. Spitting truth laced with some justified sass.

  5. Angharad

    This is just heartbreaking.

    It seems like far too many churches are treating their ministry couples as celebrities instead of servant-leaders these days. We are getting it in the UK too. My husband recently saw a church advertising for a new pastor in a town that has a very wealthy area and also areas of great deprivation, and as a ‘selling point’ for the job, they said that the pastor’s house would be in ‘the most prestigious street in town’. My husband commented that he feared for any church with a pastor who was attracted by such an offer. We’re not called to minister from a position of superiority, but to get alongside those who are suffering.

    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      Exactly! It is so, so sad.

    • Amy A

      Wow, they are just so blatant with it. I have a friend who occasionally attends a church where the pastor makes $2 million a year, and I don’t know if that even includes revenue from his books and speaking engagements.

  6. Sarah E. B. Kocher

    So he’s just….. Mark Driscoll 2.0?

    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      I think he may be trying to be!

    • Laura


      I had the very same thought when I read this post earlier today. Like MD, JH probably thinks he can just get away with his behavior and if he gets de-platformed from his church someday, then just like MD, he’ll move somewhere and start another one and still be allowed to speak at marriage conferences even though he is not qualified to do so.

    • Christa

      That’s exactly what I’ve been thinking!!

  7. JG

    The other thing I find disturbing is what he said about the child with disabilities. How incredibly lacking in grace. It is not the child’s fault that he or she has disabilities. Neither is it the parents. I believe that Jesus loves all children including the ones with disabilities. Mocking anyone with disabilities makes me furious, because I am a mom of a special needs daughter. It makes me wonder if Lakepointe still has a ministry to families with a special needs family member since I know that they used to several years ago.

    • Jo R

      Well, sure, we’ve all read about those incidents, like where the eighteen whom the tower fell on were worse sinners than everybody else, that the man was born blind to punish him for his own and his parents’ sin, that Job was the worst sinner on the face of the earth and only got what he so richly deserved.


    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      Yes, I’d be curious to know that too. I was so sad when I heard they got rid of the Divorce Care ministry. For many women that was their man source of support, and they desperately, desperately needed it.

    • Jane Eyre

      Regarding disabilities, I don’t think Jesus was unclear in Matthew 25:40.

      That little boy is made in the image and likeness of God. What we do unto him, we do unto Jesus.

      I also cannot wrap my mind around someone who is allegedly anti-abortion but pro-discrimination against people with disabilities. One way to reduce abortions is to make our world more welcoming and loving to disabled kids.

      Ultimately, no one is forcing the congregation to sit in those pews. It’s America – they can find another church.

      • Tiffany

        I’m angered by what that beautiful child and family endured there. That is traumatic. When you go to a church, you expect to be accepted, cared for, loved. That child will probably never forget the impact of their words. Evil. Often, where you see misogynistic behavior, ableism, racism, and other forms of oppression are part of the package. Research shows this to be true and I read it yesterday in a social psychology book. That “pastor” is toxic and it will infect the entire system that he oversees. Grateful for this webpage exposing it.

        • Amy A

          Exactly, Tiffany. I belong to a few different marginalized groups (including disabled ppl), and those kinds of people are pretty much always consistent with their bigotry. If they feel superior to one group, they feel superior to them all, and they won’t hesitate to mock everyone who isn’t like them.

        • Taylor

          As a mother with a special needs child, the treatment of this disabled child made me ill.

    • Nessie

      That made me so sick! And that the people, whether it was a worker or a kid, voiced it being from a sin is despicable!
      If the kids’ area has people saying things like that (be it disabilities, misogyny, etc.), it’s probably “in the water” there and it may be best to avoid the whole church. Which is sad because there are probably some wonderful, godly congregants there- but they wont stay that way if they take his sermons to heart!

      That you were able to gather such a full collection of accounts is vile.

      • Nessie

        And I hate to go there because I know many have been hurt by this before, but how would Josh feel if someone told him that his wife’s infertility was a direct result because of HIS sinfulness?? What if they asked him how HE had sinned to cause their infertility?? Because in a church that would claim a child’s disability is due to sin, they would likely also share similar thoughts… but of course he has to misdirect to it being his wife’s fault. Because he’s perfect, right?

        I’m just SO ticked off over this…
        Lakepointe people, YOU DESERVE BETTER!
        JANA, YOU deserve better!!!
        Most importantly, GOD DESERVES BETTER than to have His Word twisted and abused like this and to watch His daughters be damaged using HIS WORD!

        • Sheila Wray Gregoire

          Amen, Nessie!

        • JG

          Thanks for your kind responses.

        • Angharad

          Yes, I started crying when he jumped in to her story to insist she clarified that the infertility wasn’t due to any failure on his part and that she found him very attractive. And then the poor woman apologises for finding it hard to carry on – HE interjects with such a crassly insensitive comment and SHE feels she has to apologise for being thrown by it…I feel so sorry for her. Most of the time, she has this bright, fake-looking smile on her face, but any time you see her in repose, she looks so sad and almost fearful.

          • K

            Yes to this!!

            How much louder can a man proclaim to an audience that he doesn’t care about his wife – and what will it take for people to wake up and hold him accountable for it??

            From my own experience – people around him will never wake up to it. Being “in the club” is so much easier and more rewarding than looking out for someone else. Especially when the “looking out” can cause you to personally be sidelined by the “in crowd”.

            Jana’s careworn and anxious face haunts me.

            I think she could be surrounded by people and totally lonely at the same time. Finding your way out of that (especially when you have adopted children to consider, also) would be incredibly hard.

          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            It truly was a really sad dynamic there. She tried to cover for him well.

  8. Nathan

    >> become all things to all men in order to save some….
    >> preach to the HUNDREDS of unchurched drink-a-beer-and-watch-a-game guys
    This may be a nitpick, but he implies TWICE that he only wants to reach and save MEN

    >> But he also said that Jesus was offensive
    True, but as Sheila said, Jesus was offensive AGAINST abusers. John is offensive IN SUPPORT OF abusers.

    >> Instead, “give him a crown and he’ll become a king.”
    My experience is, give somebody a crown with no strings or accountability attached, and they’ll become a brutal tyrant.

    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      Exactly, Nathan!

  9. Chrysti

    I don’t know how his wife puts up with him. My heart hurts for her after the way he publicly (!!) belittles her pain in those clips. Is he really that clueless? Or hiding his own pain behind the insensitive humour??

    • Amy A

      Women raised in that kind of environment think that this is how they are meant to be treated. They have been conditioned to believe that it’s godly behavior. I wish they knew their worth.

      • Jo R

        Yes, because we’re all told where to stand, what to wear, and what to do.

        And if we don’t do as we’re told, we’re sinful and rebellious, and we might not even be Christians.

        🙄 🤮 🤬

      • Betty LeNoir

        Yes, and I was taught to be silent. That the husband chooses the church. And men are in charge, even if they are incompetent.

  10. Laura Tarro

    One of the things I noticed: His response email (and post) to concerned members of the congregation felt like auto replies. He was tamping down dissent with bland promises he didn’t intend to keep. I recognize this playbook. He said he reads his email, but he has an assistant who might reply.

    He said, “I love you guys!” But he doesn’t even know what campus they attend. He doesn’t know them.

    This isn’t pastoring. It’s brand management.

    And that’s a problem.

    • Lisa Johns

      I noticed the auto-reply feel of those answers. Nothing to make your parishioners feel loved like hitting a button for an auto-reply. And the “What campus do you attend” question almost sounds like he’s planning on making sure they’re addressed personally by a goon squad. I wouldn’t tell him!!

      • Nessie

        I thought the same thing about the end question1 That campus may be getting an extra dose of “teaching.”

        The “friend” vibe he’s trying to give off followed by the acknowledgment he knows nothing about them shows how much of an act it all is for him.

        I know I had the wool pulled over my eyes very well yet even my old church knew not to go this far. They knew enough to have a line they didn’t cross and even argue against in some measure so as to give the appearance that, “See? We really do fight for females.” I’m glad to hear stories of how women and families are leaving and not going back.

  11. Tiffany

    Sheila, thank you for your public service and amplifying the voices of ppl who have been silenced by this man. So many red flags.

    I am scared for the women there. His behavior reminds me of pastors who eventually committed clergy sexual abuse of adults. I’m not saying he did. But normalizing sexual references and creating a culture where men are centered, particularly him, is a set up for further egregious behavior.

    Lakepointe members, if you read this, please get familiar with what domestic abuse/coercive control looks like in churches. Google it. Also google clergy sexual misconduct. Keep an eye out for signs. 🚩

    Predators and abusers will flock to a church like that where they can be protected. Really makes me wonder…

    PS If his wife reads this, I hope you are OK. Your husband seems resistant to correction. Sounds like a lot of ppl, including me, care about your well-being. If you need help, know it’s out there. Praying for you.

  12. Renea

    I listened to the ugly woman joke and to be fair he points out two ugly men also in it.
    This doesn’t mean that what he does is ok. Just sayin’. 😊

  13. Mara R

    Sheila, I am glad that you corralled all of this info in one place and are planning to keep adding to it as Josh does and says other stupid things that are the opposite of what Jesus would say and do.

    ex-Lakepointe members, I hope you find a place of healing. I hope you make support groups for yourselves because you have been traumatized by this tyrant who thinks he’s a pastor. He is no pastor. He doesn’t care for the sheep. He only cares about being the center of attention where everybody laughs at his adolescent jokes and making a lot of money. If any of you need to vent here, I’m sure Miss Sheila and Co. won’t mind.

    Current Lakepointe members…
    Those of you who are shocked and hurt by this man, get as far away from his as you can. Don’t give that church anymore of your money. Don’t honor that den of thieves with you presence. They don’t deserve you.

    Current Lakepointe members who want to defend this monster in fake pastor clothes… Shut up. Go to your rooms. Then think long and hard about your bad and un-Christlike choices.

  14. M

    He’s not the pastor of a church. He’s the pastor of a sports club.

    • Lisa Johns

      And the word “pastor” is used very loosely. !!

  15. Laura

    In their recent video, The New Evangelicals (Way to go Tim!) showed the video clip of Jana “repenting” of not giving her husband enough sex, then Josh chants that dumb cheer “Be Aggressive!” His is a face I’d love to slap and I do NOT believe in hitting people. That clip made me mad! I’d like to know what Josh considers “enough sex” and was he suggesting to his wife to “be aggressive” or was he implying that he should be the aggressive one?

    To treat a church like a sport bar, ew is all I can say. What does he mean by a “feminized” church anyway? Sounds like the women were more involved in church before he came along and became senior pastor. JH sounds like another Mark Driscoll or Doug Wilson wannabe.

  16. Jeanne

    “Give a man a crown and he’ll become a king”? My guy needs to go back and reread 1&2 Samuel, 1&2 Kings, and 1&2 Chronicles. (At least, I hope it would be a reread.). Lots of crowns, very few righteous men amongst the wearers.

    My most generous conclusion is that Mr Howerton does not actually know his Bible. The darker alternative is that he does and is willfully ignoring every part that does not support his narrative.

    Sad that he and his supporters do not realize that the kingdom they are building—one with a single category of humans at its center—more closely resembles the archetype of Babylon than Eden.

  17. College Student

    “Give him a crown and he’ll become a king.”

    King ≠ good. Many (dare I say most?) kings have been tyrannical despots who thrive upon the suffering of those they are meant to protect.

    God gives out the crowns. History has well proven that we don’t choose well on our own.

    • Angharad

      Maybe these guys who think all men need to be crowned king need to look at what God said when Israel demanded a king…

      Earthly ‘kings’ were never part of God’s plan. And He warned His people that having a king would end very, very badly. And it did.

      So they are seriously suggesting doing the same thing now?!

      • Jo R

        Yeah, because just like with communism, the wrong people tried to do it, or they just didn’t implement it correctly.

        But THESE people will do it right. 🙄

        • Lisa Johns

          Yes, everyone else’s mistakes are for our instruction and we can repeat them and get different results if we just do things a *little* better in this corner…

          • Jo R

            Absolutely, let’s learn from others’ mistakes and do better ourselves.

            The problem comes when it’s the system itself that is inherently flawed. There’s no fixing mistakes that are part of the system’s own fundamental design and characteristics; the system needs to be scrapped in its entirety and replaced with a different one.

            “If only we could find the right words to make women understand how subservience is actually good for them!” 🙄

  18. Amy

    Thanks for putting this all in one place. I wanted to make an important comment about the NDA situation.

    In your post, there is advice from someone about how a place can only sue you for the amount of money tied to the NDA, this is not necessarily accurate. It depends on how the NDA is written. Some places sue for damages as well. I would hate for someone to make a decision about speaking out and not understand their risk. Talking to an attorney who understands NDAs would be the best course of action.

    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      Good point! I’ll update that.

  19. Willow

    I am not familiar (thankfully) with this person or their business, but it comes across to me – as someone who has had a long blue-collar career working with 95%+ men – that this guy wants to be a “bro influencer” and has built an entire business around that.

    I don’t know how that accords with being a Christian at all.

  20. Taylor

    The words “mass walk-out” come to mind.

  21. K

    Okay, so I had to look up Andrew Tate … https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-64125045

    Just to make sure – this IS the right person? Right?!?!

    And I thought I knew how low the church and “Biblical Counselling” could go?!?!

    If your counsellor at church posts approvingly about people like this …. RUN. NOW!!!


    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      Yes, it’s the same person.

    • Angharad

      Andrew Tate’s influence is causing HUGE issues in UK schools, with teen boys developing abusive behaviours toward women and girls due to his teaching, not to mention feeding into incel culture here. His teachings are horrific – any man who likes or promotes his work is not a safe person for any woman to be around. With some influences, it might be possible to excuse someone promoting them because they might have only seen ‘ok’ content from that person. But Tate does not issue any material that is remotely good or safe – it’s all toxic.

      • Laura


        Do you know if Tate identifies as a Christian? I read somewhere that he came from an evangelical background, but from the way he talks and is not married, but has had multiple girlfriends, he does not appear to be living as a Christian.

        What I find appalling is that Christian men are looking to him, Elon Musk, and Jordan Peterson as role models for “true” masculinity. I don’t think any of these men are Christians. Why can’t men look to Jesus as the role model for masculinity? Well, they don’t because when you get into reading the words of Jesus, He sounds “woke.”

        • College Student

          He “converted to Islam” in the last year or two.

        • Angharad

          He’s supposed to have converted to Islam – I’ve seen interviews he’s given, and he refers to God (he thinks what he is doing is God-ordained) but never Jesus. Similarly with Peterson, a lot of Christians think that anyone who mentions ‘God’ must be a Christian and therefore to be followed. I’ve heard a lot of men claim that Peterson is a Christian, but I’ve never heard Peterson himself say anything that would indicate he is. I get the feeling that a lot of misogynistic men WANT these guys to be ‘Christian’ so that they then have good reason to follow their teachings.

        • Nessie

          I’m trying to figure out where even in the bible it states that the goal of men is to be masculine? A lot of the passages I’ve been reading lately repeatedly mention, “and Jesus had compassion on them.” How does compassion allign with these guys’ idea of “masculine?”I think there’s a much greater scriptural call for compassion and similar characteristics than for manly.

    • Lisa Johns

      First of all, HOLY MACKEREL!!! Does this guy not have one. Single. Thought. Of his own?! HOW did he get through seminary?
      Second, the little smirk on his face as he said that he was “sorry” for his careless words………….. have any of you ever seen that on an abusive husband’s face as he was quasi-apologizing for the benefit of pastoral staff? I have, and it bodes nothing good. Run, y’all.

      • Jo R

        Sure, his single thought is he’s so hot that his wife can’t help herself, even as infertility crushes her.

        • JG

          It makes me wonder who modeled this kind of treatment of women to JH. He should be publicly showing how to lovingly support his wife through the pain and hurt she is dealing with.

          • Jo R

            His buds in the junior high locker room? 🤔

        • Shoshana

          Infertilty would be a blessing in disguise if I was married to someone like this. What kind of dad would this guy be?

      • Nessie

        If it was an SBC seminary, I’m sure he passed with flying colors based on the SBC pastors I have experienced… so many similar behaviors though not usually as blatantly hateful. I’m sure there are those who truly mean well, but it seems just so open for guys like him to breeze through.

        Should we really be surprised he plagarized his apology, too? Wouldn’t surprise me if he searched something like “fake pastoral apology that came across as real and settled ruffled feathers.”

        I can imagine one day in heaven his wife and the wives of many other big name “christians” like him consoling one another and finding joy in FINALLY having the freedom God promised.

        • Lisa Johns

          It says a lot that SEMINARIES are the biggest place where one can get away with plagiarism (i.e. intellectual dishonesty). What are we doing, church?!

          • Nessie

            Fwiw, I specifically meant the misogyny, not necessarily the plagiarism Though misogonistic, my previous pastor was pretty good about citing sources at least. I apologize for being unclear.

        • Sheila Wray Gregoire

          He actually never finished seminary!

      • K

        “….. have any of you ever seen that on an abusive husband’s face as he was quasi-apologizing …”

        Hand up, here. 🤮 Badly triggered.

        A lot of smiling, a lot of talking to the camera.

        A guy who has no accountability structures in his life – breezing through the motions, with no actual respect for the people he’s pulling one over on … and because he’s said he LOVES THEM SO MUCH – who is “bitter” enough to not swallow it and instead call it a fauxpology?!

        Played that game. Hanging up my hat.

        No more.

    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      I’ll add this when I have a minute!

  22. Perfect Number

    Thanks for gathering and posting all these receipts. I am *shocked* that someone who would “joke” about a wife doing whatever her husband wants sexually, has a whole history of disrespecting women. (Note: Not actually shocked)

  23. Saddened

    We recently moved to Rockwall. I’ve been out of the church for a while now, b/c of so much, but we wanted to return to church. We actually considered Lakepointe b/c it was one of the more popular youth ministries, which makes me so sad. I read through this entire post. What stood out to me was the part about everyone just waiting to be offended and how you shouldn’t be offended for someone else. I am so thankful for your ministry at Bare Marriage and your wilingness to be offended for others. I would say I am not one who has an extreme story or a story of abuse. And truthfully, in the past I probably would have sat in church and laughed at the joke. But as my marriage lacks the initimacy that we should have, I see that it’s b/c of the twenty years of messages like these that I heard as a single Christian and then as a newly married Christian. The “he will want sex, and you won’t.” The “you’ll be tired, but it’s your job to do it anyway.” Her “testimony” of repenting of her selfishness b/c she was tired, I would have nodded right along with it, long before I was even married, not knowing how much that messaging would set me up for failure. For me, what I heard wasn’t the grave errors, it was the trickle of bad messaging that maybe doesn’t offend more than a few, but over time the consistency of being told what your place is in marriage creates a rut that is hard to escape from. Lastly, his messaging about how important it is to hear correction, it seems like he lacks any bit of humility, even false humility. He even said, one should take the correction and see if there is even a bit of it that could be true, and he seems to lack that in his response to “this thing” that most recently happened. I am so very saddened to hear about the elimination of the women’s ministry. I don’t know if there is still a program for children with disabilities, but I did see they are having a camp this summer for children with disabilities.

    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      Hi Saddened! That’s exactly it, exactly. This messaging hurts people, this constant trickle, and I’m so sorry that it’s hurt you and caused distance in your marriage. Yes, where would you be if these teachings hadn’t set you both up for failure?

      And the lack of humility is astouncing.

  24. Angharad

    Regarding plagiarism and the defence that every sermon includes information absorbed from other sources and so can’t be referenced: We had a sermon from a retired minister on Sunday. At one point, he commented that the quote he had just given was the only direct quote from a specific book, but that the book had informed and aided his understanding of the entire passage on which he was preaching. So even when he wasn’t taking ideas or phrasing directly from the book, he STILL gave credit to the author.

    This is so important for two reasons – the first is that it encourages humility in the preacher and the second is that those in the congregation who are interested in further study can look up those books for themselves, thus encouraging them to develop their own personal study of the Bible.

  25. EOF

    This is beyond disgusting, but I’m so glad it’s being called out far and wide. It’s eye opening to keep coming back to this post and see new things added! It’s horrible that his behavior is accepted by so many “Christians,” but at the same time it’s not all surprising given how widely accepted Love & Respect and similar books are.

    I read somewhere recently (a FB comment?), someone pointing out that Christian marriage books are so bad that it sends women out to buy the next one and the next one, desperately in search of the answer that will finally relieve all their pain. But they never do because the books keep giving toxic advice that harms women so the answers will never be there. But there will always be new books to buy — money to fill these publishers’ and authors’ pockets. Follow the money!

  26. K

    Howerton and Driscoll together …


    And another perspective …

    The irony of Romans 1 here is astounding. I’ve sat in places where Romans 1 is considered the final word (and judgement) on LGBTQ2S+ issues.

    But who is really WORSHIPPING “an image made like corruptible man” here?


  27. Lynn

    The only thing I have to add to this post is more background on the change to the events. Howerton posted on his blog back in 2020 on why the church was doing away with women’s and men’s events (they called it “streamlining their events”). The main cause cited was that since the church is multisite, the quantity and quality of the events across campuses was uneven. They also saw that the events budget was increasing by 30% each year, so it was something they saw as unsustainable due to their multisite model. It doesn’t excuse the fact that women’s events were under invested in compared to men’s previously. They also have been trying to outsource a lot of ministries to life groups / small groups, some of which meet on campus and some that meet in homes. In my experience the quality of these groups is pretty mixed and depends greatly on the individual volunteer leader’s skill at leading. It seems unbalanced to me to completely gut investment IN the body in favor of growing it with more members and locations.

    • Anderson

      The link no longer works.

  28. Anderson

    Your comment about Josh and Jana living in a $1.4 million dollar home is incorrect. The mortgage in 2021 was for $1.348 million, posted on a county website. If he put 20% down that is about a $1.7 MILLION dollar home in 2021. To qualify for the mortgage would require a minimum $300K salary (conservative estimate) in 2021. What is it in 2024? Is Josh serving the church or serving himself?

    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      Good question!

      • Anderson

        The house is 6000 square feet on 6 acres with a 4 car garage in PRESTIGIOUS Heath, TX. It is also listed as Forney, TX and Rockwall, TX in various places, but the mortgage with their name on it, found at https://kaufmancountytx-web.tylerhost.net/web/document/DOC1001S7113?search=DOCSEARCH1008S7 says 2420 Stevens Rd in the City of Heath.

        Check it out on Google Maps. It is the kind of place the president of a successful for-profit corporation might like.

        • Sheila Wray Gregoire

          Oh my goodness. That’s so scary. 6000 square feet? As a Canadian, this is really unheard of. I can just imagine what European Christians must think.

  29. Anderson

    Josh Howerton published ’11 Pastor Hacks I Didn’t Learn in Seminary’ in The Baptist Review. That is funny because Josh never graduated from the Seminary. If he had finished all of the classes he might have learned them there.

    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      Yes, and he’s now charging $1500 for a one-day training session with him for other pastors, where he’s sharing his “pastor hacks” (which presumably includes plagiarism).

      • Anderson

        $1500 to attend his “Closed-Door Pastor’s Cohort”, a “private, off-record, one-day gathering to speak candidly about behind-the-scenes practicals of scaling a church in a healthy way and preaching to modern culture. ”

        The level of secrecy implied doesn’t seem to be necessary for the stated topic.

        Maybe they are going to talk about other things, like how to profit off the scaled-up tithes of a scaled-up church. The last event that day is “Dinner & fire-pit hang at Howerton house, 6pm”, the house in Heath TX that he bought in 2021 for an estimated $1,700,000.

        The house should be inspiring to the attendees, showing what can be achieved if they follow the word of Josh. Or maybe Josh is using the house to inspire them to come back for a whole series of “Closed-Door Pastor’s Cohort”s, at $1500 per day, since the extent of Josh’s wisdom surely cannot be transferred in a single day.

        • Sheila Wray Gregoire

          This is just wild.



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