Rebecca Welcome to the Bare Marriage podcast where we like to discuss evidence based, healthy and biblical advice for marriage, sex, and relationships. And this is obviously not Sheila. This is Rebecca here today. Because Sheila, as we are recording this, is actually on a speaking tour in Manitoba. And if you are interested in having Sheila or any of our crew do speaking tours where you are, just send us an email and let us know and we’ll see what we can do. So she’s been having a fantastic time up in Winnipeg and all around there with a bunch of patreons and, meeting people at these church events. And so my dad, Keith, and I are going to be holding down the fort this week as we record a podcast on drum roll. Da da da da da da da. ADHD and marriage. Keith Yes, So and again, it’s. Go ahead. Go ahead. Rebecca No. What are we gonna say? Keith I was going to say, It’s going to be evidence based. Yes. So. And the problem is that some of the evidence is not comfortable for people. Rebecca Yes. Keith We are going to warn you ahead of time Rebecca Yes. Keith There’s going to be some hard lessons for some people. Rebecca Yes. So to give context, people who are Patreons already know this, but back in January, I was diagnosed with Combined Type ADHD. And I’ve been processing that ever since, and, I processed it quite loudly in the Patreon group. And I’m going to actually read you what I wrote for our Patreons. Keith So first of all, the plug to join the Patreon group. Rebecca Yes. Keith Then you get to be part of this sort of like, community. Rebecca Yeah. Keith What’s going on behind the scenes? And it’s a really great place to be. It’s really fun. So really, it’s not very much money and it really gives us a lot of support. We really appreciate it. Yes. Second thing is, is that okay. You were you’re saying you’re going to say so you read. 00:02:01:09 – 00:02:02:19 Rebecca Okay. Sounds good. 00:02:02:26 – 00:02:13:18 Rebecca Okay, so here’s what I wrote. And and this is what I wrote will also explain why we’re talking about this because well, this is about my experience. We’re not going to be talking about just what I’m doing. 00:02:13:25 – 00:02:25:29 Rebecca I am not evidence. I am a data point. I am not data plural. Right. The singular of data is anecdote. So. Yeah. So so here’s what I wrote. 00:02:26:02 – 00:02:36:11 Rebecca I got diagnosed with ADHD combined type this week. I have a lot of personal processing that’s going on, which I’ll keep for myself obviously. But I will admit there’s a massive area that’s related to work that I’m just mad about. 00:02:36:13 – 00:03:13:26 Rebecca For years, we have been told that we need to have, quote unquote, realistic expectations for neurodivergent spouses, and they always mean husbands when they say this. When it comes to mental load, those quote unquote realistic expectations always end up just meaning fewer expectations, fewer demands, and having the other spouse just shoulder more than their fair share. And then I find out I am the exact type of neurodiverse that everyone says can’t do all the things that I’ve been doing my entire life, who people have been criticizing us about not understanding who are weaponizing their diagnoses as a thought stopping mechanism that leaves their spouses drowning. 00:03:13:29 – 00:03:36:00 Rebecca Everyone saying you don’t understand how hard it is. Well, yeah, apparently I freaking do. People understanding people saying, well, you can’t expect them with ADHD to see the mess. Yeah, actually, I freaking can. And then you add to this the reams of data that show that women with ADHD still carry the freaking mental load, and it becomes clear that actually, no, this isn’t about neurodiversity. 00:03:36:00 – 00:03:53:29 Rebecca It is once again about male entitlement to women’s labor. I imagine people will be angry with my frustration, or think that my ADHD must just not be quote unquote that bad, or find some other way to continue to excuse themselves from having to actually choose to care about the housework and be a full partner. But no one is saying don’t find accommodations, but your spouse. 00:03:53:29 – 00:04:11:09 Rebecca Carrying your part of the invisible labor is not an appropriate accommodation. I have yet to find a single study that shows that women’s ADHD is less debilitating than what men go through. Rather, I have found study after study that shows that women actually have it harder most of the time because of a the likelihood of not getting diagnosed in childhood. 00:04:11:11 – 00:04:29:19 Rebecca B the expectations of women to mask see the societal burdens placed on women that are not placed on men that are really hard people with ADHD, but the girls just have to figure out how to manage because the cost is simply too high for us. And yet, over and over and over again, we’ve had people tut at us because we didn’t use soft enough language or we are quote unquote expecting too much. 00:04:29:24 – 00:04:40:03 Rebecca I’m just so over it. So those are the kinds of emotional outbursts that you can also see in live time, reacting to if you join our Patreon group. 00:04:40:06 – 00:04:46:27 Keith Okay. So let me ask you a question and yes, off track, but it’s going to get around to the overall theme of this. 00:04:46:29 – 00:04:47:19 Rebecca Yeah. 00:04:47:22 – 00:04:49:11 Keith Do you love your husband? 00:04:49:13 – 00:04:49:29 Rebecca Yes. 00:04:50:05 – 00:04:51:21 Keith Do you think your husband is a bad man? 00:04:51:23 – 00:04:52:14 Rebecca No. Okay. 00:04:52:18 – 00:04:58:27 Keith So when you say even though you have ADHD, you’re holding the mental load. Yes. Because you hate all men. You think all men are terrible? 00:04:58:28 – 00:05:02:02 Rebecca Clearly, no. Yes. 00:05:02:05 – 00:05:20:07 Keith You got me up there. This is the point we’re going to be discussing throughout the whole podcast, right? It is easy to react defensively. Yeah. When you hear something asking you to change. That’s very normal. But to discount what a person is saying because they just hate all men. 00:05:20:08 – 00:05:20:20 Rebecca Yes. 00:05:20:21 – 00:05:44:04 Keith They just have a bias. That is just turning off your brain. So so, you know, here at the progress, we think men are capable, you know, good people, and we think they can be great, wonderful people. And when we see that, hey, here’s a system where guys are getting to escape because they and women are just expected to pick up the slack. 00:05:44:06 – 00:05:46:07 Rebecca Anyway, we need to. 00:05:46:07 – 00:05:54:20 Keith Address that from a justice point of view. Yeah. It’s not attacking them and saying that we’re attacking them is purely a deflection. 00:05:54:27 – 00:05:55:04 Rebecca Yeah. 00:05:55:09 – 00:06:02:20 Keith Right. So we support men. We support women. If you have ADHD, it’s hard. We get all of that. 00:06:02:22 – 00:06:03:05 Rebecca Yeah. 00:06:03:06 – 00:06:05:14 Keith But let’s try and at least make it fair. 00:06:05:16 – 00:06:06:02 Rebecca Yes. 00:06:06:04 – 00:06:08:03 Keith And that’s going to be kind of a theme we talk to all. 00:06:08:05 – 00:06:09:15 Rebecca Yeah. We’re not going to. 00:06:09:17 – 00:06:22:01 Keith That makes you feel attacked and offensive. Take a breath and go okay. Is what they’re saying. True. Is what they’re saying helpful? Can it make things better if I listen to it? Don’t think and think in those kind of terms. Rather than do I like this or not? Does that make. 00:06:22:01 – 00:06:41:00 Rebecca Sense? We’re just a pro brain space around here. We have to use our brains, and when we get defensive, we turn off our brains. Wait. And we’re. We’re acting from instinct. We’re not acting from our prefrontal cortex. Correct. Yes. No. But here’s here’s the situation. The reason why I was so frustrated about this is actually from back when we were, trying to figure out stuff for the marriage you want, right? 00:06:41:07 – 00:07:00:27 Rebecca Because we were looking at our data about how women are carrying the mental load in the majority of marriages, and they’re carrying a lot of mental load. And it really, really affects marriages. It is like the number one thing that is a predictor that your marriage will frankly suck is if the mental load is being disproportionately carried in your marriage, that’s bad. 00:07:01:03 – 00:07:04:03 Keith Yeah. And by mental love, what we need is not just doing the housework. 00:07:04:06 – 00:07:04:28 Rebecca Yeah. 00:07:05:01 – 00:07:21:08 Keith Being the person who organizes everything has everything in their head about how the house runs. So, you know, when you say, give me the list. Yeah. Your wife. Then you feel like a hero because you did all the things on the list. But it’s like she had to come up with the list, and that’s a lot of work. 00:07:21:11 – 00:07:29:08 Keith And if men, as men, we want to engage in our relationships, then we want to be there as good husbands and partners in a relationship. We need to be list makers. 00:07:29:11 – 00:07:39:16 Keith Saying, okay, this is the thing these needs to get done. Yeah. And we found in the marriage you want to specify what ADHD that women just learn to cope. Yeah they. 00:07:39:22 – 00:07:54:08 Rebecca Do. Well and that’s what I found so frustrating is what would end up happening when we did the mental load series, even before we did the marriage. You want to like the reason that the marriage went was so frustrating because of the feedback that we got during the mental load. Series, is all these women saying, but my husband has ADHD and so this doesn’t work for us. 00:07:54:14 – 00:08:18:00 Rebecca And then they get mad at us for not providing quote unquote accessible resources when as far as I could tell, not realizing back then that I did have freaking ADHD and very and by the way, I have combined type ADHD, so I have the boy type. Okay, that’s what that means. I have the boy type. I know that’s a silly way of putting it, but in terms of people’s minds where it’s like, oh, my husband has ADHD, I have the kind of ADHD your husband statistically might have. 00:08:18:03 – 00:08:21:02 Rebecca I know I’m being okay. Evidence based track. Get me. 00:08:21:06 – 00:08:22:01 Keith It’s. It’s all one. 00:08:22:01 – 00:08:25:10 Rebecca Disease. Yes it is. Yes. 00:08:25:12 – 00:08:26:22 Keith And I say that. Yes, I’m a pediatrician. 00:08:26:23 – 00:08:27:04 Rebecca Yes. 00:08:27:11 – 00:08:41:25 Keith The thing that’s interesting for this whole thing and the the whole thing about this that’s interesting for me is that I don’t have I don’t I haven’t read a lot of the adult. Yes. So I’m very up to date on the pediatric research and I’m very knowledgeable about ADHD because I treat it in my practice all the time. 00:08:41:27 – 00:09:00:04 Keith But I was really unaware of the adult research until we started writing them. And you want to do the major, you was address some of these issues of neurodivergent. And how does that work out in the relationship where you’re trying to truly be a teen? And that’s where I had to first kind of hit that data. And it’s like, oh, wow. 00:09:00:10 – 00:09:20:12 Keith And it’s like one of the things I thought was really interesting, I don’t know, getting us off track here, but the, the one person wrote, the reason that physicians used to think boys grew up in ADHD is because boys got married in a way, started taking over their executive function. Yes. So executive function means that part of your brain that’s meant to organize and keep things, keep track of things. 00:09:20:12 – 00:09:21:28 Rebecca Right. And then meanwhile, you. 00:09:21:28 – 00:09:22:12 Keith Have a hard time. 00:09:22:12 – 00:09:23:08 Rebecca Doing that. Yes. 00:09:23:09 – 00:09:33:00 Keith So you get married to a woman who is basically comes your day planner and tells you where to be and where to go and like, and stuff. And you just do it and you’re like, well, maybe she’s cured because you get someone organizing your life for you. 00:09:33:02 – 00:09:51:16 Rebecca Well, and not only that, and there’s other studies that show that women, with ADHD, their symptoms often, are more debilitating in adulthood because now your responsibilities and the requirements are so much more, and you don’t have a safety net because your spouse as a woman is not a safety net and your spouse is not a safety net. 00:09:51:19 – 00:10:05:11 Rebecca Who’s a man? Yeah, exactly. Because women who are married to men do not have a safety net in the same way. Even women married to excellent men in the same way. Now, Connor has learned to be my safety net. But he was not when we first got married. And we’ve been open about that. 00:10:05:14 – 00:10:12:29 Keith And again, it’s not because. No, it’s because in our society, we tend to teach women to act a certain way and men act another way. 00:10:13:03 – 00:10:13:20 Rebecca Yeah. 00:10:13:22 – 00:10:20:04 Keith That’s why it’s good for men and women to be different. We’re not opposed to that. But if it’s unjust. 00:10:20:09 – 00:10:22:06 Rebecca Yeah, we need to address that. Yeah. 00:10:22:07 – 00:10:41:29 Keith One of the things I’ve seen, for instance, in practice, is a lot of it’s very well known in the medical literature for, for kids that girls are late to get diagnosed with ADHD, typically because, you know, and this is this part is more my theory, you know, is that when boys are hyperactive, it’s kind of seen as allowed. 00:10:42:01 – 00:10:58:14 Keith Whereas girls, it’s really kind of like that. And so a lot of girls become kind of internalized things, but their brain is still a million miles an hour and they’re daydream ers, but because they’re not disrupting the class or having difficulty in that way, they’re not making a problem for other people outside of them. They just kind of get ignored. 00:10:58:16 – 00:11:07:08 Keith Whereas the the kid who’s running out of the classroom, you know, wants it in this chair. You know, like I say, it gets a lot of attention every time. 00:11:07:11 – 00:11:21:01 Rebecca And that kid, when they were two years old, their parents thought it was great and bought them a climbing gym, whereas the girl at two years old who was running around was told to sit still. Right. And I think that’s that’s it all. It all goes way back to to early on. But 00:11:21:04 – 00:11:41:01 Keith The Bible can be weaponized against abuse victims. Many of us have experienced this. And what makes it even more heartbreaking is that when we try to call it out, we’re often accused of not believing Scripture. Well, enter the new book To Heal or Harm by Doctor Stephen Treacy. He outlines all the verses that are weaponized and shows what God really wants instead. 00:11:41:04 – 00:12:02:07 Keith How Scripture is meant to heal and comfort, not support abusive power structures. Written from a conservative point of view, it can put pastors, church leaders, and others at ease and make them listen when sometimes they won’t listen to us. Doctor Treacy speaks their language and he wants to call the church back to healing, not abusing checkout to heal or harm. 00:12:02:09 – 00:12:04:04 Keith The link is in the podcast notes. 00:12:04:07 – 00:12:08:23 Rebecca what I find sorry, you get way back to the mental load series that we did. 00:12:08:25 – 00:12:31:05 Rebecca What I found so frustrating was all these women saying, like, but you, this doesn’t work because my husband’s ADHD and what I’ve realized and what I, what I knew back then, but I feel very vindicated in now, is that it’s not the ADHD, it’s that he doesn’t care. And your and your taking the ADHD as a way to convince yourself that he does care. 00:12:31:12 – 00:12:52:26 Rebecca And the fact of the matter is, when you have ADHD, you are able to do these things. It’s just harder. And when we are people whose brains do not regulate dopamine in the way that it is supposed to, right? That’s just how this works. It’s really frickin hard to get yourself to do things you don’t care about. But if you care about it, I mean, I’ll be very. 00:12:52:26 – 00:13:06:00 Rebecca This is a personal thing, right? My negative coping strategy, which from the data doesn’t seem like it’s going to be a shocker because it seems to be 98% of women with ADHD was just. I got anxious about it, right? I cared about it. I internalized it, absolutely. 00:13:06:00 – 00:13:08:23 Keith And anxiety is a huge thing. I see a lot in kids with ADHD. 00:13:08:23 – 00:13:23:24 Rebecca Yeah. And like, is that healthy? No, but the point I want to make is like, I, I got worried about it because I cared about it and because it was a priority and I was able to make it happen. And the fact of the matter is, 00:13:23:27 – 00:13:31:23 Rebecca it’s not that it’s not possible. Right. There are healthier ways than inducing a panic disorder, but it is possible. 00:13:31:25 – 00:13:59:10 Rebecca And it’s not even like you have to, like, pull yourself across the finish line by your fingernails after eight miles through desert heat type of possible. It’s like you can do it. You just need to actually decide you want to do it. And I think what I find so infuriating from a justice perspective and from a gender relations perspective, with all the work that we do, is once again, it’s just comes down to whether or not the guy thinks it’s worth his time. 00:13:59:16 – 00:14:23:14 Rebecca And it comes down to entitlement. And this is not some like again, I said this in that Love and Respect series. It’s not some weird mustache twirling villain like, ooh, I wonder how I’m going to be misogynistic and chauvinistic today. No one’s thinking like that, but it’s just when you’re not acknowledging that you’ve been raised in a different way than the opposite sex, you can live in this entitlement and not realize it. 00:14:23:14 – 00:14:41:08 Rebecca So I just the reason we want to talk about ADHD and neurodiversity today is really just to talk about how, you know, it is an explanation. It is not an excuse. And it it shows you where your starting point is where you need to work from. It doesn’t tell you that the starting point no longer exists. 00:14:41:16 – 00:14:43:21 Keith Right? Yeah. And can I say two things? 00:14:43:28 – 00:14:44:08 Rebecca Yes. 00:14:44:12 – 00:14:54:15 Keith The first thing is I always said, these women are saying, well, that’s not it doesn’t apply to us because my husband has ADHD. Yeah. And you say it’s because he doesn’t care? Yeah. That’s not an attack on that. That’s what I’m saying. 00:14:54:21 – 00:14:55:19 Rebecca No. 00:14:55:22 – 00:15:00:07 Keith Okay. What we’re saying. Why doesn’t he care? He doesn’t care. Doesn’t have to. 00:15:00:09 – 00:15:00:18 Rebecca Yeah. 00:15:00:20 – 00:15:13:24 Keith Right. Because, you know, for instance, in a house where both husband and wife work, there’s been studies that show if a house is messy, they they people disproportionately think poorly of the woman. 00:15:13:26 – 00:15:14:23 Rebecca Yes. 00:15:14:25 – 00:15:25:16 Keith They don’t think the women know. Even though we give lip service to the idea that they’re both working in that particular house, it’s both their responsibility. Even people who think that it’s not the woman’s job. 00:15:25:18 – 00:15:29:02 Keith Blame the women more than the men because that’s the way we’re cultured or you’re socialized. 00:15:29:07 – 00:15:39:02 Rebecca Well it’s like the example of a dad takes their kids. You see a dad eating with their kids at McDonald’s like oh my gosh, cute daddy daughter date. You see a mom with her kids in McDonald’s like, oh, she can’t she can’t cook. 00:15:39:06 – 00:15:57:16 Keith Yeah. Exactly. So, so it’s not that we say that men are uncaring, that people know people. It’s that the way we set things up, men are allowed to not care. And you know what men are deal with stuff. Right? And you like women are getting this stuff too. Yes. But men are doing stuff. So it’s like if I don’t care about that why would I. 00:15:57:19 – 00:15:58:13 Rebecca Exactly. 00:15:58:14 – 00:16:21:15 Keith And that’s one of the things I think is really great about Sheila and how she talks about masculinity. Right. Because here’s the deal. As a Christian, I think, you know, I agree with Sheila that masculinity is recognizing the fact that as a man, I inhabit a space where I have some privileges that other people don’t have. And my role as a Christian is like Jesus, to give that up to benefit others. 00:16:21:18 – 00:16:34:04 Keith So if I’m in a position where I learn, hey, this is something I haven’t had to care about, but it would really matter to my wife if I cared about it. The Christian response is to say, I need to learn to care about this. 00:16:34:06 – 00:16:47:16 Keith Right. And that’s what I want to challenge you. And that’s the first thing. The second thing is, is that and this is what we talked about in the marriage you want book. That there’s a difference between accepting that a person has challenges. Giving people a free pass. 00:16:47:18 – 00:17:09:07 Keith Right. So when I talk when I have kids with various types of a difference, the goal is for them to participate fully in life in every way. And you need accommodations for that. Right. So I want kids to go to school. I want kids to, you know, have like friend groups. All these things we want for our kids because they’re part of a normal, healthy childhood, in my case. 00:17:09:07 – 00:17:20:26 Keith But even healthy life as an adult. So there are certain accommodations that need to be put in place. Right. So saying I forget to pay bills because. 00:17:20:28 – 00:17:35:08 Keith So therefore I’m going to pay the $8 a month to get this online scheduler. Yeah. So that I don’t forget the bills is fine to say because I forget to do it. I shouldn’t have to. It’s your job. It’s not. 00:17:35:10 – 00:17:54:16 Rebecca Yup. That’s the difference. Yeah. And in your marriage I will say you also like the love you are are also individual. I find taxes really stressful. You know I find it really hard. It’s very detail oriented. I get I find it very hard. Connor does the taxes. I’m also capable of doing the taxes. Yeah. And that’s a big. 00:17:54:16 – 00:18:01:14 Keith Thing, is that if you do get to play to your strengths. It’s the wonderful thing about having a relationship where you are truly a team of equals. 00:18:01:14 – 00:18:02:03 Rebecca Yes. 00:18:02:05 – 00:18:08:15 Keith God is that you don’t worry about. It’s the man’s job. It’s the woman’s job. It’s well who is good at covers and who should do it. 00:18:08:16 – 00:18:22:21 Rebecca And it’s not just this. Well, I don’t want to do it. I’m just not doing it. You have to figure it out. That’s because that’s what often happens. Is often. Well, I just can’t. It’s like. Okay, but did you have a conversation about it where you figured out, okay, well, if you’re not going to do this, then what are you going to take on? 00:18:22:27 – 00:18:25:17 Rebecca What are you going to flip like and say? 00:18:25:17 – 00:18:30:12 Keith Honestly? Like, you know what, this is something I just cannot do. I’ve I’ve tried to. 00:18:30:14 – 00:18:30:29 Rebecca Yeah. 00:18:31:01 – 00:18:44:07 Keith To support myself. And I’m just not good at. And you are. But if you take this on, I recognize that means you’re taking on something more. So here’s what I propose. We should do that too for me to balance that out so that it’s still fair. 00:18:44:13 – 00:19:04:13 Rebecca Like can you have that discussion. I have a good example that’s personal. Sorry. Give more personal examples often. And con and I have an entire day off where we’re not working. Connor will get up with the kids and put them to bed, and I’ll have them all day. So he has less time with the kids, but I take so long to wake up in the morning, and I find those transitions really, really hard. 00:19:04:15 – 00:19:08:12 Rebecca But if I just have the kids for six hours straight, I’m fine. 00:19:08:15 – 00:19:19:18 Rebecca So Connor will have them for a lot less time in the day, but it’s at the times where it’s hard for me. So it ends up being that I feel like I got the positive end of the deal. 00:19:19:18 – 00:19:39:23 Rebecca He feels like. Well, I got six hours straight to read books and video game, and we’re both happy. And I think that’s the kind of example versus like, I don’t know, you can be creative with it. We’re not saying you have to act like a neurotypical couple. What we’re saying is what we can’t do is just say, well, I get to nope out of being a partner. 00:19:39:24 – 00:19:46:22 Rebecca That also makes my spouse’s life easier in a way that I wouldn’t be able to if I was a woman. 00:19:46:24 – 00:19:48:22 Keith Yeah. That basically. Yeah. 00:19:48:28 – 00:19:50:24 Rebecca Yeah. Yeah. 00:19:50:24 – 00:20:03:03 Keith And that’s the reason why we really think this whole rigid gender roles, way of dealing with things that you see in the evangelical church is just, it’s not, it’s not good for neurotypical couples. It’s a disaster. 00:20:03:07 – 00:20:04:03 Rebecca Yes. 00:20:04:05 – 00:20:04:22 Keith Issues. 00:20:04:24 – 00:20:17:07 Rebecca And the number of comments we’ve gotten in our surveys about that, where it’s like, yeah, no, my ADHD self and my autistic husband self were not. This did not work for us. Yeah. 00:20:17:09 – 00:20:26:14 Keith And it’s like, you know, it’s just so much easier just to be a team of equals under God. Each being strong with the other is weak. It makes so much more sense. They work so much better. 00:20:26:21 – 00:20:45:20 Rebecca Yeah. So I was thinking when we’re talking about a lot of this, I know people get confused about what does an accommodation mean versus an excuse. And so I was thinking we could kind of just pontificate about scenarios because it’s hard to give a hard line. Yeah. And this is because I a lot of people say, well, does this count? 00:20:45:21 – 00:20:57:01 Rebecca Like, well, I don’t know, in a relationship where you are healthy, it might be totally fine for you to totally delegate this onto someone else’s shoulders versus if this is a pattern, it might not be. Yep. Great. 00:20:57:03 – 00:21:03:02 Keith So I just get back up my soapbox and keep, you know, flogging the dead horse for it. 00:21:03:03 – 00:21:03:13 Rebecca Yeah. 00:21:03:20 – 00:21:06:19 Keith Is if you have a relationship where he is the authority. 00:21:06:22 – 00:21:07:00 Rebecca Yeah. 00:21:07:04 – 00:21:26:15 Keith To decide things, then it’s going to be unfair because she’s going to say this is not fair and he’s going to go, well, that’s just the way it’s going to be. You know like as opposed to saying okay this doesn’t feel fair. And he’s say well I’m assuming we’re equal. But it feels fair to me. Yes. And then you have a debate on an equal playing field about what you should or shouldn’t be doing. 00:21:26:16 – 00:21:36:09 Keith Yeah. That can be healthy. Now, one person is a little more powerful personality, and they may kind of bulldoze the other person. And that that does happen in relationships, even in equal relationships. 00:21:36:11 – 00:21:36:19 Rebecca Yeah. 00:21:36:24 – 00:21:45:05 Keith But if you’re setting up your relationship with a hierarchy from the very beginning, that’s going to just be awful. Yes. You know, it’s just terrible. 00:21:45:10 – 00:22:01:11 Rebecca Exactly. And it can. And also, the thing about the hierarchy is also makes it bad, regardless of which spouse has ADHD. So if the man has ADHD, it can further the, the the entitlement because you’re being told while you’re doing your job, you’re going to work and you’re providing for your family. And now she’s the feminine energy in the home. 00:22:01:14 – 00:22:18:13 Rebecca And so why would you be doing all these things right? But then if she’s the one who thinks we heard this a lot, she’s drowning and she doesn’t feel like she can speak up, and she doesn’t feel like she can tell him I need more help because she’s not doing her job, quote unquote. Exactly. And so it hurts both of them. 00:22:18:13 – 00:22:35:19 Rebecca It’s not even just like if the ADHD is the manner and then if both them ADHD, it’s even more. So even we got a lot of comments about that where it’s like I got when I commented this on my Patreon, we got a lot of comments from women saying that they spent 15 years of their marriage accommodating their husbands ADHD, only to get diagnosed themselves. 00:22:35:25 – 00:22:51:00 Rebecca Yeah. And realize, oh my gosh, this was just as hard for me. And that’s I think that’s a common rage experience for a lot of women. From what I’ve heard, is just. Yeah. But but. 00:22:51:03 – 00:23:00:23 Rebecca Okay. So in my research for accommodations, because I’ve been looking up accommodations stuff. Right. Clearly, it turns out me and Connor, we’re really good at this. Naturally. 00:23:01:00 – 00:23:02:16 Keith Once people figure out these kind of things. 00:23:02:21 – 00:23:13:26 Rebecca Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But I think a big one to to talk about is not about whether or not the job needs to get done, but how the job can get done. 00:23:13:28 – 00:23:15:11 Keith Okay. I haven’t heard that before. 00:23:15:11 – 00:23:19:15 Rebecca So tell me. So I will there’s just this is me summarizing what I have read from multiple places. 00:23:19:18 – 00:23:35:14 Rebecca If we’re talking about, for example, remembering appointments. Right. Okay. A lot of people will delve in with ideas of the best way to remember appointments. And the best thing to do often, it seems, is to actually look at when am I successful in this? 00:23:35:16 – 00:23:53:12 Rebecca And how can I recreate how I’m already successful? So do we remember things that are on a routine, for example? So maybe you book all your appointments on Thursdays. So when Thursday? Because I feel like I probably have something going on and you know what I mean? I’ve started doing that. It works really well. There’s different. 00:23:53:12 – 00:23:53:26 Keith Strategies. 00:23:53:26 – 00:24:12:28 Rebecca Yes. Or maybe you’re someone who always has a paper planner on you because you need it for work. And you can put it right in there, or that does not work for me personally. But like you figure out what is the way you’re already succeeding in this in another area because the odds are that you are succeeding in this in some capacity in your life. 00:24:13:00 – 00:24:13:09 Keith Right? 00:24:13:16 – 00:24:39:13 Rebecca Like most people, you’re not forgetting every single appointment. Likely some people are. Yeah. Talk to a psychologist or somebody that if you need additional help. But like there’s there’s there are likely places where you’re doing this really well. And so focusing on the areas where you’re showing this as a strength and how can we recreate that, for example, are you because you’re taking your dentist appointments over the phone, are you just writing them down and putting them on the fridge and then just walking by it and become blind to it? 00:24:39:16 – 00:24:48:11 Rebecca Versus when you’re chatting with a friend, it goes into your iCal, right? Right. And then that dings you calendar. Yeah. Sorry. Your your iPhone calendar. 00:24:48:18 – 00:24:52:13 Keith And after. Yeah. You put all your stuff and then it gives you it gives you alerts. 00:24:52:17 – 00:25:10:05 Rebecca Exactly. Yeah. Are there certain times that you think, oh well I’ll remember this. And no you won’t actually. And that’s okay to acknowledge versus others where you’re like, I’m looking at my calendar already to try to figure out when I can do this. So I guess I’ll just pencil you in, like, figure out which ones you’re doing well already and try to replicate that. 00:25:10:12 – 00:25:22:02 Keith So I think you’re saying two things. You’re saying that you need to recognize it’s a problem. Yeah. So being honest, yes, I know that if I, someone tells me, oh, let’s go together next Thursday, if I don’t write it down immediately, I’m going to forget. 00:25:22:02 – 00:25:22:15 Rebecca Yes. 00:25:22:15 – 00:25:33:26 Keith And just be honest with that fact, right. That you know that. And then the second thing is, is coming up with strategies so that it doesn’t happen, that you do forget it. Oh that’s right, you don’t immediately whether it’s, you know, only doing things on Thursday. 00:25:34:01 – 00:25:35:05 Rebecca Yes. Yeah. 00:25:35:12 – 00:25:42:16 Keith You know, so I had some people say like, okay, you know, let’s get together for coffee next Wednesday. Okay. Like, can you text me Wednesday morning? 00:25:42:22 – 00:25:43:05 Rebecca Yes. 00:25:43:08 – 00:25:45:02 Keith Make sure that it’s still on. 00:25:45:05 – 00:25:45:29 Rebecca Yeah. 00:25:46:02 – 00:25:48:24 Keith Because they know that if they get that, it’s like. Oh, yeah. 00:25:49:01 – 00:25:50:26 Rebecca Yeah, exactly. Different ways. Yeah. 00:25:51:01 – 00:26:12:27 Rebecca And I can’t remember exactly where I read that thing, but I really liked that, discussion about how, you know, you might be tempted to be like, I’m going to go on a YouTube deep dive about the absolute best way to remember appointments. I’m going to watch three hours of content. I’m going to spend $200 on the best planners and pens, and what’s better is to look at the ways you’re already doing it. 00:26:12:27 – 00:26:20:00 Rebecca Well, because we tend to skip the boring parts and that’s a little bit boring, but it’s very, very effective. 00:26:20:03 – 00:26:22:10 Keith Yeah, all humans do that, but especially people. 00:26:22:12 – 00:26:40:07 Rebecca Yes, yes. This is it’s a human thing, but it’s just. But I really liked that perspective of instead of it being like you’re deficient in this and so you need to fix it, it’s like you’re probably already doing this successfully sometimes. So let’s figure out the ways that you’re doing this successfully and just replicate that because you are your own randomized control trial. 00:26:40:09 – 00:26:40:20 Rebecca Right. 00:26:40:21 – 00:26:42:13 Keith Like as long as you make it a trial. 00:26:42:17 – 00:26:42:29 Rebecca Yeah. 00:26:43:03 – 00:26:47:28 Keith Because this is the thing as a as human beings, we’re very much attracted to the right answer. 00:26:48:04 – 00:26:48:17 Rebecca Yes. 00:26:48:22 – 00:27:06:12 Keith Things are simple. It’s great because it’s like when we when we have a problem, it activates kind of our cortisol system. We’re like, okay, there’s a problem. We start to get anxious. If we have a quick solution. It’s like, I think the answer is right. So, oh, you have a problem. And you just do this to fix the problem. 00:27:06:12 – 00:27:28:14 Keith Right. And I think that’s why marriage teaching, which is so simplistic has such a audience. Yeah. It’s it’s easy. The problem is that every human being is different. Like, oh, I mean, this individual that have individual strengths and weaknesses. So this might be the best solution for this problem statistically for yes, everybody. But you’re one of the outliers who that’s going to be a disaster. 00:27:28:15 – 00:27:42:25 Keith Yeah. So so what works for you as long as your two things. Number one is you’re trying everything to see which one actually does work best. And the second thing is, is that you’re getting feedback because if it works for me, but it makes everyone else’s life awful. 00:27:42:25 – 00:27:43:12 Rebecca Yes. 00:27:43:13 – 00:27:45:15 Keith That’s not living community. 00:27:45:15 – 00:27:46:08 Rebecca Yeah. 00:27:46:11 – 00:27:48:17 Keith If they if everyone else is just your wife. 00:27:48:20 – 00:27:49:21 Rebecca Yeah, exactly. 00:27:49:28 – 00:27:54:15 Keith We’re just going to break into the podcast for a second to talk about what you said. You can support us here at Bear Marriage. 00:27:54:15 – 00:28:22:15 Rebecca Yes. Because clearly you love this podcast. You’re listening to this podcast, right? You’ve subscribed to this podcast, right? You’ve you’ve rated this podcast five stars. Right. Clearly you’ve done that. Yeah. Because that’s a great way to support us. No. But in all seriousness, we know that so many of you who are listening have been positively impacted by our mission of bringing evidence based teachings to the evangelical church and trying to change the conversation about marriage and sex to something that is healthy, evidence based and biblical, rather than just based on someone’s opinion or vibes. 00:28:22:22 – 00:28:34:12 Rebecca So if you would prefer to make sure that more of the Christian world gets evidence based, like biblical advice and less vibes based misogyny, you can support us. 00:28:34:15 – 00:28:38:08 Keith Evidence based vibes of proof text. 00:28:38:13 – 00:29:01:00 Rebecca Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So there are multiple ways you can support us. Number one, of course, is by donating to the good free Faith initiative of the Bosco Foundation that is helping us get our works translated. It’s helping us figure out how to break into new populations that are harder for us to get in a way that, quite frankly, can bring us some revenue. 00:29:01:00 – 00:29:18:04 Rebecca And so we really do rely on donations to be able to reach, certain groups. Additionally, you can join our Patreon. Unfortunately, the good free faith donation is only tax deductible in the US. So if you aren’t in the US and you still want to support us, join our Patreon. You can also. By the way, you can do both. 00:29:18:10 – 00:29:44:03 Rebecca You can join our Patreon and give it a good free faith. But our Patreon has, book clubs that are run by Joanna. It has a really great Facebook group that’s very active and has really fantastic community. You get exclusive podcasts and behind the scenes, and also you just get to meet other people who also want to talk about this stuff and where you don’t have to apologize for standing up for women, and that can be just a really healing experience for many people. 00:29:44:03 – 00:30:08:11 Rebecca And then finally, there’s a really fun way to support us. You can buy our merch. Our merch sales are a fantastic way to directly support this podcast. Our profits from our merch go straight back into the business and it helps us upgrade our equipment. Pay our employees. It helps us keep the lights on. All the important stuff that is not so sexy to talk about, but is very important. 00:30:08:17 – 00:30:15:14 Rebecca So you want to support us. You can donate, you can join our Patreon, or you can buy yourself a little present. 00:30:15:17 – 00:30:26:19 Rebecca All right. And now we have a very fun segment with someone who you have not met before. Because Dan is a friend of mine and Connor’s. This is Dan Forsyth. And then you are a licensed counselor, are you not? 00:30:26:22 – 00:30:27:03 Speaker 3 Yeah. 00:30:27:06 – 00:30:27:28 Rebecca You are. 00:30:28:00 – 00:30:28:21 Speaker 3 A therapist. 00:30:28:23 – 00:30:46:18 Rebecca Exactly. So Dan actually is a very good friend of Connor and mine in our personal life. And so it made sense to ask him to come and do this segment with me today, because we are going to talk about some nitty gritty accommodations with ADHD, because you work a lot with, people with ADHD and couples with ADHD in your in your work. 00:30:46:18 – 00:30:47:00 Rebecca Correct. 00:30:47:07 – 00:30:51:29 Speaker 3 Yes. Just, yeah, I have several times a week. We can we go? 00:30:52:02 – 00:30:52:16 Keith Yeah, yeah. 00:30:52:17 – 00:31:17:06 Rebecca I mean, it’s pretty common problem, right? Like there’s stuff you have to work out and it gets complicated. And therapists can be really, really helpful for that plug for therapy. But I was wondering, Dan, if you would be willing to talk through some of the things that Connor and I have learned that help accommodate my ADHD and in a very, very fun way, because you’re my friend and we are all in understanding that this is totally safe for me and Connor. 00:31:17:08 – 00:31:21:11 Rebecca Rate whether my accommodations are toxic or not. Toxic. 00:31:21:14 – 00:31:23:04 Rebecca So again, I’ll be clear. 00:31:23:07 – 00:31:42:09 Rebecca Connor and I are not. All of these are super healthy for the two of us. But often people will give recommendations for accommodations that are just like blanket statements. And relationships are so much more nuanced than that. And so we were kind of hoping that Dan could offer more of the expert opinion of how can things go wrong? 00:31:42:10 – 00:31:48:25 Rebecca When could this be helpful? Let’s have a nuanced discussion about this instead of just you should or you can’t. 00:31:48:27 – 00:31:52:02 Speaker 3 Yeah, absolutely. I find with 00:31:52:02 – 00:32:20:21 Speaker 3 this is, just like as a conversation between us, like, I mean, like, this is my favorite conversation to have. I it’s conversations I found myself or like, find a way into naturally. Just throughout the course of my work, when I started out as a therapist, I didn’t intend to be a couples therapist, but I couldn’t get around just how important our relationships are to our mental health, to, it just impacted so many different areas in life. 00:32:20:21 – 00:32:41:08 Speaker 3 I always kind of worry about even just like couples therapy, I would, you know, would be corny or I had all these, like, preconceived notions about it. But I ended up finding, my way into it and very passionate about it for, for a lot of different reasons. And, I was diagnosed, let’s say, like, in the past, like two years. 00:32:41:08 – 00:33:04:22 Speaker 3 So, for as much as, like I, endeavor to give. Right? As a professional in my line of work, I’ve received a lot from, just my clients over the years. So, Yeah. And I’m excited. And, like, the thing with, like, ADHD, like, with, like, a lot of spectrum disorders. Like, it doesn’t necessarily create new issues. 00:33:04:24 – 00:33:28:18 Speaker 3 Exacerbate the universal ones. And so what I find, in the course of my work and kind of my increasing push for like specialization in this area is that the traditional, not traditional, but just a lot of what would apply can be otherwise. Good advice for let’s say like neurotypical, dynamics doesn’t apply for you. 00:33:28:20 – 00:33:33:13 Rebecca I actually want to know what some of those are, what ones you think wouldn’t really work or apply in your experience. 00:33:33:16 – 00:33:44:18 Speaker 3 Yeah. Well, know I always raise, a red flag every time you hear. You should just, just have a budget. You should just have a shared calendar. 00:33:44:21 – 00:33:46:07 Keith Yeah. 00:33:46:10 – 00:34:11:13 Speaker 3 And, and it’s not that those are like, if I’ve met, I don’t think I’ve met anybody with ADHD. Men and women that haven’t, burned through, like 30 different kind of calendar updates or, or budgeting apps for. Yes, highly restrictive. Like, you know, we’re we’re freezing the credit card in a block of. 00:34:11:16 – 00:34:13:07 Keith Yes. 00:34:13:10 – 00:34:31:19 Speaker 3 Locks and all of this cell phone. We’ve had cell phone jails in my own house and things like that, too. And it’s, ADHD takes a lot of experimentation. It takes a lot of communication. The bulk of what I do, has a lot to do with communication. So I’m excited to be great. 00:34:31:22 – 00:34:32:03 Keith Awesome. 00:34:32:03 – 00:34:47:12 Rebecca We have some communication based accommodations here that we can talk about. So because I do in fact have a four and a six year old. And so everything in my house is a craft I made Dan and unfortunately the people who are listening are not going to see this, but I made Dan a little paddle that has red on one side and green on the other, 00:34:47:12 – 00:35:00:01 Rebecca And so as I tell Dan, the things that Connor and I have figured out over the years, and that only recently I’ve realized are actually just accommodating my ADHD, he will be able to put forward the red or the green or rapidly oscillate between the two. Okay. 00:35:00:03 – 00:35:00:18 Keith Okay. 00:35:00:20 – 00:35:11:28 Rebecca All right. So number one, I am allowed to just zone out during conversations and get something done. If it takes less than 30s. 00:35:12:00 – 00:35:13:06 Speaker 3 I am allowed to zone. 00:35:13:06 – 00:35:13:28 Keith Out. 00:35:14:00 – 00:35:23:12 Rebecca To just totally leave a conversation in my brain like I’m and I. And then all of a sudden I pull up my phone. I’m doing something. Yes, in a conversation, if it likes, if it takes less than 30s. 00:35:23:14 – 00:35:29:19 Speaker 3 If it takes less than 30s off and you’re doing. Yeah, okay. I would, 00:35:29:21 – 00:35:32:20 Rebecca Remember, you’re allowed to on the side of toxic with me. 00:35:32:22 – 00:35:34:01 Keith Yeah. 00:35:34:04 – 00:35:36:04 Speaker 3 And again, it comes down to context. 00:35:36:07 – 00:35:39:09 Rebecca Yeah. So that’s an oscillating one. That’s an oscillating one. 00:35:39:11 – 00:35:49:13 Speaker 3 Good default. Sorry if this is frustrating. Like a lot of my personality you can imagine just the professional role I have to balance perspective. 00:35:49:18 – 00:35:50:06 Rebecca I’m going to be. 00:35:50:06 – 00:35:51:10 Speaker 3 Honest I mediate. 00:35:51:10 – 00:35:51:22 Keith A lot. 00:35:51:22 – 00:36:10:18 Rebecca So you and Conner’s personality is so similar in the same realms that made both of you want to go into counseling. And it is the way that I am the most different from both of you, and it is the number one reason why I can never go into counseling. That love of the the gray middle area. And well, let’s look at the perspective. 00:36:10:18 – 00:36:14:09 Rebecca Like now I know what I right or not so well. 00:36:14:11 – 00:36:26:16 Speaker 3 The, I can imagine that you would be sensitive to the language of like, what I’m allowed to do. I like it for this is how I am understood. 00:36:26:19 – 00:36:48:25 Speaker 3 we always give too much credit. I have this conversation with folks all the time to, just the cognitive aspects of how we process. Like, we, our culture is that we’re very like information based, textual based, like the inner thoughts, language communicable to you yourself or even others. 00:36:48:25 – 00:37:00:10 Speaker 3 We’re what you would call a like a low contact society where we rely a lot. Or I would rather say we overemphasize the importance of verbalization. 00:37:00:15 – 00:37:02:17 Rebecca Oh, yeah. Okay. 00:37:02:19 – 00:37:03:16 Speaker 3 the. 00:37:03:20 – 00:37:25:22 Speaker 3 Degree in which we, pick up, interpret, read between the lines in terms of tone of voice, in terms of body language, eye contact. That’s also very culturally specific. Is that I find with a lot of couples, there’s a lot of just inferring from somebody. 00:37:25:24 – 00:37:26:26 Keith Yes. 00:37:26:28 – 00:37:37:05 Speaker 3 Whereas, what I like about your scenario is that it sounds like you guys have had a conversation. It sounds like, I mean it’s like, you know me. 00:37:37:09 – 00:37:37:17 Keith Yeah. 00:37:37:17 – 00:37:48:25 Speaker 3 You know that I am present and you have spurred a thought and this is just how my brain works. It’s actually a more so a sign of engagement rather than disengagement. 00:37:48:27 – 00:38:14:10 Speaker 3 And, that’s good. Right. But so the, it gets the green from me just because it is it sounds to me like a product of clear communication that is specific to you. That therefore isn’t left in conscious mind to, again, a lot of how we read tone of voice, body language has everything to do with past relationships. 00:38:14:13 – 00:38:26:19 Rebecca Well, and of course, you’re in a conversation with someone and then all of a sudden they pull out their phone. You’re going to think, oh, they don’t care what I’m talking about. And that was the case for me and Connor for a really long time. But then I’m sitting there and I’m panicking because I’m like, no, I forgot to send off this important text. 00:38:26:20 – 00:38:55:21 Rebecca Someone from work. And you said, oak tree outside an oak tree made me think of the emoji that I’ve put on her workspace. Which is an Aspen and then Aspen. And, like, it sent me on a long rabbit trail, and I’m like, if I don’t do this right now, I’m going to forget. And before I got my diagnosis, this is a huge point of contention with me and Connor, because I was not able to stop doing it, because if I didn’t do it, because I did stop doing it for a while, and then I forgot things, and then I didn’t put the appointment in my calendar, and then we’d pay the $60 because 00:38:55:21 – 00:39:19:24 Rebecca we missed it, because I didn’t put it in the calendar when I remembered it. And now we’ve had, like you said, that communication where we’ve kind of created our own marital culture, where we have new cultural norms, where I know it has to be quick. I am not allowed to get on another rabbit trail. Or if I am, I have to then tell Connor, because I do the thing where I don’t communicate, I just do it. 00:39:19:24 – 00:39:28:24 Rebecca I just immediately I forget to say, oh, one second, honey, I just I’m straight into doing the task. But he now knows it’s going on and he just waits and he picks right back up where he left off. And it works great for us. 00:39:29:01 – 00:39:54:25 Speaker 3 It’s a very specific, and then really important piece of insight, for ADHD, like, oh, hey, I, I, I often tell a lot of stories about, really the I can go off for, for, for a while and how I get to this insight, but like, the areas of the brain that are impacted or kind of most affected by ADHD, it’s a, 00:39:55:01 – 00:39:58:04 Speaker 3 neurological it’s a developmental. 00:39:58:07 – 00:40:00:13 Speaker 3 Right. So this isn’t, 00:40:00:15 – 00:40:02:27 Speaker 3 a result of, let’s say, like, too much television as a kid. 00:40:02:29 – 00:40:05:07 Keith Yes. 00:40:05:09 – 00:40:24:08 Speaker 3 You know, screens, like, it’s always, it’s been around and the parts of the brain that, it impacts has a lot to do with our capacity. How to anticipate the future? 00:40:24:10 – 00:40:25:25 Speaker 3 the history of lobotomies. 00:40:25:28 – 00:40:28:15 Keith Oh, we could do a whole we. 00:40:28:15 – 00:40:39:21 Rebecca Could do a whole podcast. On the bottom is because of the gendered nature of lobotomies as well. I’ll be honest. Let me know if you want to. Lobotomies podcast Dan and I will do a lobotomies podcast at some point. 00:40:39:23 – 00:40:54:17 Speaker 3 Because I would I often get it is I and this, typically nails I find our go. They’ll often sit back, perhaps with their arms crossed and say, I don’t know what. I don’t I’m not so hard on her. 00:40:54:21 – 00:40:55:16 Keith Yes. 00:40:55:19 – 00:41:22:13 Speaker 3 I’m I’m just like, I’m so much more easygoing. And they’ll often, in let’s say, let’s just say, for argument’s sake and in actual examples, you know, these are, it men, by and large, with ADHD. I’ll when I encounter, and I, you know, of course it exists. But when I encounter women, who, speak similarly, but there’s, there’s, there’s a lot of layers of. 00:41:22:15 – 00:41:24:26 Rebecca Socialization. 00:41:24:28 – 00:41:38:10 Speaker 3 Differences here, is that it impacts, our ability. We, we have those kind of called, like, a time horizon, like, so if you think of, like, the scrolling text, the start of, like. 00:41:38:15 – 00:41:38:28 Keith Star Wars. 00:41:38:28 – 00:41:40:01 Rebecca Movie. 00:41:40:03 – 00:42:00:04 Speaker 3 Where it’s far away, it’s just like you don’t really get a sense. And then progressively as it just kind of it passes over you, you kind of read it and, it’s just kind of enters that imminent kind of frame. So like when, when you pull out your phone, say, oh, shoot, like, I, if I don’t do this now it’s going to scroll on by. 00:42:00:06 – 00:42:28:17 Speaker 3 Things in the future. So things like when the bills have to get paid. Yes I mean birthdays or we have a trip that we have kind of coming up for like all of those things if we can in our minds exist in that space in the future, that should provoke enough kind of an anxiety maybe, but anticipation that and whereas in ADHD, there’s the, you have the now and you have the not now. 00:42:28:20 – 00:42:39:14 Speaker 3 Everything tends to kind of scroll through and then the imminent moment and we have this intuitive anxiety that if we don’t act on something now things get messed. 00:42:39:19 – 00:42:40:02 Keith Yeah. 00:42:40:05 – 00:42:43:08 Speaker 3 And that’s accumulated over you know decades. 00:42:43:10 – 00:43:04:10 Rebecca Well we get that from data because we haven’t done it. And then we missed it. And then we screwed up. And then people got mad at us, or we were embarrassed. Or maybe we failed that test, or maybe we did all these things. It’s literally for many of us, especially those of us who get diagnosed late. It’s decades of personal data that we have been racking up where it’s like, actually, no, you’re and sorry, this is going to sound harsh and not very like nice. 00:43:04:10 – 00:43:19:25 Rebecca But what our what our experience tells us you are actually quite bad at this. You’re not good at this because if you don’t do it perfectly right now, it’s not going to get done. And you’re not going to do to your standards and you’re going to feel awful. And so many of us develop panic disorder, which is a very normal thing. 00:43:19:27 – 00:43:46:03 Rebecca And so being able to do these little things and not having to juggle the all those not now things in my head and being given permission to deal with them in the now has allowed me to really to relieve a lot of anxiety and, actually enjoy the now more ironically, because I’m doing more things in the now instead of having the huge cloud of not now constantly over top of me, I’m like, yeah, when you find a system that works for you and you’re allowed to do it, it works. 00:43:46:10 – 00:43:47:05 Rebecca Comes my next one. 00:43:47:11 – 00:43:48:24 Keith Yes. Okay. 00:43:48:27 – 00:44:09:01 Rebecca Connor and I have spaces in the house that have to always be tidy. And then other spaces that are allowed to be incredibly messy. Okay, so there are some parts of the house that are just always going to be a disaster, and some parts that are always going to be up to our standards. 00:44:09:04 – 00:44:09:27 Speaker 3 I need more. 00:44:10:00 – 00:44:10:23 Keith Okay. 00:44:10:26 – 00:44:13:12 Speaker 3 What are these spaces? 00:44:13:14 – 00:44:16:03 Rebecca Okay. So what we’ve realized is 00:44:16:05 – 00:44:39:05 Rebecca we are the kinds of people, and mostly because I am the kind of person who will go way too overboard and then leave piles and boxes of crap from my organizational strategies all over the places that actually matter in the house. So I’ll be like, I’m going to make our bedroom spotless, and then I’m taking everything out of the bedroom that literally no one goes in. 00:44:39:05 – 00:44:58:05 Rebecca And now there’s boxes and crap all over the living room. The kitchen, the place I do homeschooling, and our house is unlivable anymore. So Connor was like, you’re flat out not really allowed to organize the bedroom anymore. The bedroom is the is the the war zone. It’s fine as long as we can clear the floor off and clear. 00:44:58:06 – 00:45:09:07 Rebecca Like it doesn’t need to be that esthetic. It doesn’t need to be well organized. We can have boxes of like, baskets of laundry that need to be folded in there, and it doesn’t affect anything. You’re not allowed to screw up the kitchen. 00:45:09:09 – 00:45:14:04 Keith Okay, so no, I, 00:45:14:07 – 00:45:26:26 Rebecca Put her putting her, in essence, putting a reign on what I am not the word allow. Actually. Let’s know. First of all, let’s do the word allowed. What? Just the word allowed in a relationship. 00:45:26:29 – 00:45:52:18 Speaker 3 The word allowed. Sounds like. How do I manage the shame? This elicits in me. I again, I always like communicating these things because, like, first of all, they talk about. That’s right. Like, do it like the, you don’t even have to be married, right? You can be roommates. You can. 00:45:52:18 – 00:45:53:19 Keith Be. Oh, yeah. 00:45:53:22 – 00:45:59:23 Speaker 3 People will fight and just shipwreck themselves. 00:45:59:28 – 00:46:01:01 Keith Yes. 00:46:01:03 – 00:46:22:06 Speaker 3 Mess. And ADHD is interesting, when it comes to mess, because it is, it’s often it’s so it’s not a the name I always find it’s a bit of a misnomer. It’s not always a, an attention deficit. It’s just a highly variable, pockets of, energy and. 00:46:22:06 – 00:46:24:06 Keith Attention. 00:46:24:08 – 00:46:28:20 Speaker 3 When people are working, that is the conventional thing would be like, oh, treat yourself with short breaks. 00:46:28:24 – 00:46:31:00 Rebecca Yeah. Absolutely not I hate it. 00:46:31:02 – 00:46:59:15 Speaker 3 No, because, like, when we’re in it, we’re in it. And we can at times, accomplish pretty amazing things. Yes. And with ADHD, it’s often the trick of the right thing at the right time, in the right order. And with meaningful consistency. I was just thinking I was when I cleaned the house, let’s say I, like if you were to draw a map. 00:46:59:17 – 00:47:14:00 Speaker 3 So anybody who, maybe listen to this, podcast that has played maybe more of the recent Zelda games. So they have this kind of neat little trick at the end. It’ll show the map, and it’s a little white line. And it shows kind of. Exactly. 00:47:14:02 – 00:47:15:15 Keith Yeah. Where you’ve gone. 00:47:15:17 – 00:47:36:07 Speaker 3 And it’s it’s not linear. It’s like you just kind of populate it and it’s just kind of interesting to see where all of your whims and whichever take you, however, I was, probably in the midst of vacuuming or cleaning the cat litter, or I was looking for something in a closet. Then all of a sudden, that closet is getting, spread out into the home. 00:47:36:08 – 00:47:58:11 Rebecca Yes, exactly. And this this bothers Connor to no end. And so we have put strong boundaries on that. But that thought, I do that as well. And it bothers Connor. And he’s like, you know, you just you aren’t allowed to do that in certain areas of the house anymore. And I know people are going to react to the word aloud because we have a lot of people who listen, who have been in very controlling marriages. 00:47:58:13 – 00:48:34:18 Rebecca And for me and Connor, and this is one thing to do. Well, you need a specific relational culture that you were talking about earlier. I feel so much better with the word allowed than the word boundaries, which is very strange. Like, for me, it’s like for me allowed is Green zone. I’m safe because it’s demarcate where I’m where my playground is in essence, whereas the word boundaries for me, probably because I’ve done this work for so long and because boundaries are usually talked about in the context of problematic relationships, for me, boundaries is Connor is mad at me. 00:48:34:18 – 00:48:49:15 Rebecca And so I just wanted to acknowledge that because I know some people who are listening are going to feel like allowed. That’s so toxic. Don’t use the word allowed if you don’t want to use the word allowed. That is, we are not policing your language over here. You can say whatever works for you. And if you’re like, I don’t like the dynamics of that in my marriage. 00:48:49:15 – 00:48:52:18 Rebecca There aren’t those dynamics. 00:48:52:20 – 00:49:03:14 Speaker 3 Boundaries is an interesting because I, especially a lot of us, like in the past, like decade or so. I just think of, Henry Clay. 00:49:03:17 – 00:49:04:08 Keith Yeah. 00:49:04:10 – 00:49:06:02 Rebecca Cloud and Townsend did boundaries. 00:49:06:04 – 00:49:13:15 Speaker 3 Boundaries. And it has, which is the term boundaries has a real like it has a social capital. 00:49:13:17 – 00:49:13:29 Keith Yes. 00:49:14:01 – 00:49:31:18 Speaker 3 I think with, like, a lot of words, or kind of concepts over time, like they’re, it’s, a lot of, I think what’s really like contemporary now too, is, like, who am I, going. No contact with. 00:49:31:20 – 00:49:32:04 Keith Yes. 00:49:32:09 – 00:49:40:05 Speaker 3 And things like that. So like, and there there’s a lot of conversation around, emotionally immature parenting and, yes. 00:49:40:07 – 00:49:45:03 Rebecca And you’re speaking to the choir with our listeners on that one, too. Yeah. 00:49:45:05 – 00:49:48:05 Speaker 3 And there is, aspects of it that are celebrated. 00:49:48:08 – 00:49:49:00 Keith Yes. 00:49:49:02 – 00:50:10:20 Speaker 3 We intuitively know that when we kind of like, step back from the presence of another, like there is, kind of a temperature change, but it boundaries and kind of, how that’s been expanding over time is really just kind of I it’s not the etymology of it, but it’s, it borrows from family systems. 00:50:10:22 – 00:50:11:13 Keith Okay. 00:50:11:15 – 00:50:39:16 Speaker 3 Borrows from, differentiation, which is kind of, gets kind of grouped in with, with family language around boundaries. Differentiation was there’s a few levels of it. There is, kind of, it’s, it’s psychological differentiation. I am my own person. I, am not like, yeah. In my mind, as I interact with this individual, let’s say it’s a parent. 00:50:39:16 – 00:50:41:22 Speaker 3 Let’s say it’s a partner. Let’s say it’s, 00:50:41:25 – 00:50:41:29 Keith Your. 00:50:41:29 – 00:50:45:06 Rebecca Kids too. A lot of people need differentiation from their kids. 00:50:45:08 – 00:50:45:16 Keith Yeah. 00:50:45:17 – 00:51:09:21 Speaker 3 And, it’s like our immediate reactive moments are kind of like the people in the swimming pool. And, our executive brain that is, effectively differentiated, watches the thoughts and feelings that arise because we get so in the presence of these people. But the feelings that we have are not synonymous with our selves. It’s not like part of our inner shame narrative. 00:51:09:24 – 00:51:31:06 Speaker 3 At some people use, you’re in their presence and they are alienating and severe. And, you don’t differentiate the fact that, like, hey, maybe this person just has this effect on me versus like, I have all of these hidden things that I need to ruminate and feel ashamed of. The other, realm of differentiation. And I’m sure I’m missing some are like your, your financial, your. 00:51:31:10 – 00:51:32:09 Keith Yes. 00:51:32:12 – 00:51:36:20 Speaker 3 Just basically where you live and to whom you, you depend on. But 00:51:36:20 – 00:51:39:12 Rebecca I think I know, I think I know what you’re connecting. This is 00:51:39:14 – 00:52:09:18 Rebecca the point is there is a strong idea of where one person starts and the other person ends, rather than kind of just being pulled along or reactive to the other people around us. And so for me and Connor, weirdly enough, kind of having those strong, this is like, this is where this is quote unquote allowed or acceptable, and this is where it’s not helps us kind of not just be kind of this amorphous psyche blob which is frustrated with each other and instead is like, this is where Rebecca is allowed to do her playing. 00:52:09:23 – 00:52:32:22 Rebecca This is where Connor likes his stuff. And we can kind of exist as whole individuals separate from each other, not constantly having to worry about whether or not we’re crossing over each other’s kind of safety zones. But also, I don’t then have to constantly live in the state of anxiety of how he’s feeling about me because I know what I am and am not. 00:52:32:24 – 00:52:41:14 Rebecca Again, the word allowed is tricky, but that is the best word for me because it makes me feel safe, like allowed, acceptable, agreed upon, communicated whatever we want to say. 00:52:41:16 – 00:52:41:21 Keith As. 00:52:41:21 – 00:52:44:13 Speaker 3 Like harder to feel like in ourselves. 00:52:44:20 – 00:52:45:08 Keith Yes. 00:52:45:11 – 00:52:55:15 Speaker 3 That there are just kind of like little disaster pockets that are otherwise, like low, high interest loans that we’ve taken out on their relationship. 00:52:55:23 – 00:52:58:23 Rebecca That’s a good way of putting it. I like that high interest loans in the relationship. 00:52:58:24 – 00:52:59:14 Keith Cool. 00:52:59:17 – 00:53:12:28 Speaker 3 So, my like immediate like thing, like, so like, the red would be like, I just like, I guess, like, if people are doing, like, a mental inventory, just like, think about, like where those zones are in the house. 00:53:13:01 – 00:53:13:28 Keith Yeah. Right. 00:53:14:00 – 00:53:28:00 Speaker 3 Is it a basement any time in that you know, or a closet or. Yes. Or even the kitchen table, the back of chair. It’s just something that is like chronically an issue. 00:53:28:03 – 00:53:32:16 Speaker 3 it’s not that, that those spaces can exist, but if we’re not talking about it 00:53:32:17 – 00:53:42:02 Speaker 3 and if we, let’s say that the, the non identified non ADHD partner and a neurotypical partner and we’re just kind of cleaning things up. 00:53:42:08 – 00:53:44:25 Speaker 3 Yeah, we’re inviting a lot of resentment. 00:53:44:28 – 00:53:46:28 Speaker 3 without like, any explicit agreement. 00:53:47:00 – 00:53:47:17 Keith Yeah. 00:53:47:19 – 00:54:18:06 Speaker 3 Understanding. I am getting increasingly anxious and, people respond in different ways to to that relationship anxiety. There’s a lot of, great insight into this, especially in like the EFT, the emotion focus therapy community, has its roots, deeply into attachment theory. So people either become, irritable or, like, when we feel disconnected. In my marriage, I tend to internalize. 00:54:18:06 – 00:54:19:01 Speaker 3 I tend to 00:54:19:03 – 00:54:32:12 Speaker 3 We all like, to varying degrees, have this like, very, I don’t know, like, active in a world of just internalization. Assumptions that we, we make 00:54:32:14 – 00:54:49:09 Rebecca Actually that leads me to want, can I interrupt and go to one that I want. This is not for me and Connor, but this is one that we hear a lot from people from readers. Is is it an appropriate accommodation. And this is going to sound a little Patreon-izing, but we hear this a lot. And I actually want to talk about this. 00:54:49:09 – 00:55:05:03 Rebecca I think it’s really important. And I actually think this gets to the heart of a lot of the problems what couples are dealing with with ADHD, is it an appropriate accommodation to expect the ADHD partner to never feel like they’re being told to doing something wrong, or feel shame from their neurotypical spouse. 00:55:05:05 – 00:55:12:04 Speaker 3 The short kind of snappy answer is that you can’t bear that responsibility. 00:55:12:06 – 00:55:32:10 Rebecca And I want because and I’m going to I’m going to get back to you. But I do want to say that we know have a lot of women who message us frequently saying that they can’t have these conversations because their ADHD has been just shut down because they feel shame just from having these conversations. That’s not acceptable. Your marriage is not going to be good if you’re not able to have conversations. 00:55:32:10 – 00:55:55:07 Rebecca And that is the kind of thing that couples therapy can really help with because it’s a safe, neutral third party, a ground that can that can help you have those conversations. But I do want I do want you to know that bad emotions, hard emotions, strong emotions that isn’t something that necessarily is your spouse telling you you’re a bad person. 00:55:55:15 – 00:56:14:16 Rebecca That might just be the years and years of internalized shame that’s coming out in that situation. And so I do hope I’ll let you speak. I just wanted to because I know how many of our listeners that’s the problem they’re dealing with is they say we can’t keep having the dishes pile up like this, and their partner says, you think I’m an awful. 00:56:14:16 – 00:56:18:11 Rebecca You think I’m an awful person. And that’s not what they said. 00:56:18:13 – 00:56:39:02 Speaker 3 Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well that’s so yeah, that hits on an area that I’m really like I care deeply about. Like I’m, I often, the, peanut butter around the pill of therapy like, so it’s just kind of like, it’s kind of my intersection of, being a male therapist. 00:56:39:04 – 00:56:40:03 Keith Yes. 00:56:40:05 – 00:56:52:10 Speaker 3 In a place where, I always joke that, you know, kind of like, men who are otherwise, like, resistant or skittish or distrustful of therapy. I was kind of like a, you know, you just kind of smell the hand of therapy. 00:56:52:16 – 00:56:55:18 Keith It’s just. 00:56:55:21 – 00:57:07:01 Speaker 3 It’s a chip away, and it’s, and sometimes it’s, at a certain stage, sometimes even, the other partner can just kind of be like, okay, now I can get up and leave the room. 00:57:07:03 – 00:57:07:24 Keith Yes. 00:57:07:27 – 00:57:39:01 Speaker 3 We’ve kind of got something going because, it’s it’s it’s not the asking. Yeah, right. And and I wouldn’t, settle as acceptable this, kind of, cold War kind of, treaty here is I, you know, I am so punished every time I bring this up, is the both partners are limited in their ability to. 00:57:39:04 – 00:57:40:22 Keith Yes. 00:57:40:24 – 00:58:02:21 Speaker 3 And the, partner, let’s say the husband, in this sense, is just remains stuck and stuck in that place. Right. But the splinter remains firmly lodged, and it has. And it’s just going to come up. It’s, it’s a way to compound a lot of misery over time, I find. So, 00:58:02:23 – 00:58:05:12 Speaker 3 what I like about the language. 00:58:05:14 – 00:58:31:12 Rebecca Like, I think no one’s saying you should get to just say whatever you want, however, you want to not consider your spouse’s feelings. No one’s saying that. But I also think that a lot of times, people and this is for both women and men, okay? Because I know that this is something that I also, as the woman, have done this to Connor, which is when we, the spouse with ADHD, do not take ownership of the emotionality of our disorder. 00:58:31:15 – 00:58:55:27 Rebecca We can, in essence, make our spouses feel like they have to walk on eggshells, not have conversations with us. And that’s not acceptable or necessary. Like, we can be, like you said, working on that differentiation, working on emotional health, being able to experience these emotions and kind of watch them float by and assess them rather than allow them to drive the train in the same way you can do that. 00:58:55:27 – 00:59:05:06 Rebecca And that making your spouse have to always make you feel happy and safe, I would not say is an appropriate accommodation. Yeah. 00:59:05:07 – 00:59:07:25 Speaker 3 Like not when we’re talking about our relationship. 00:59:08:02 – 00:59:10:17 Keith Yes. Children. Yes. 00:59:10:20 – 00:59:11:23 Speaker 3 To feel certain ways. 00:59:11:26 – 00:59:12:06 Keith Yes. 00:59:12:11 – 00:59:21:23 Speaker 3 Reactive. That’s why when the conversations even about with ADHD parenting. Because because we often have neurodivergent children. 00:59:21:27 – 00:59:23:07 Keith Yes. 00:59:23:09 – 00:59:25:25 Speaker 3 An inherited genetic trait. Right. So, 00:59:25:27 – 00:59:38:07 Speaker 3 I wonder if this, like, sounds familiar, because, like, it’s not always the, the partner, like, explicitly, let’s say, you know, like, throwing a tantrum. 00:59:38:09 – 00:59:57:13 Speaker 3 So when I’m thinking about, like, therapeutically, how we look at this sometimes, specifically through like, an EMT lens, we have people who pursue and people who withdrawal can look like kind of, defensiveness, like, again, back to that body language conversation. 00:59:57:16 – 01:00:10:09 Speaker 3 Walking on eggshells. Nine times out of ten, it’s usually like, hey, I’ll come through the door. And I have read the tone of voice, seeing the body language. Or maybe it’s the person, like at the sink, just kind of. They’re not yelling and screaming, but they’re banging. 01:00:10:11 – 01:00:11:16 Keith Yes. 01:00:11:18 – 01:00:37:11 Speaker 3 Or they’re they’re stomping around. Oftentimes the withdraws will kind of even do things like they won’t even engage in the conversation. It’s it’s almost worse. It is this sullen, sulky, shut down, withdraw that looks like. But if you were to attach the inner language to it was if I’m such an awful person, if I make your life so. 01:00:37:13 – 01:01:10:11 Speaker 3 I’m going to just disappear into all these, just kind of stupid tasks around, not stupid like what I think you want. I’m not. I’m not interpreting that. You want to connect with me. I’m not into, that you care about me. I’m not interpreting that. Like what you said was neutral to to whatever. Like, I, I’ve gone down to to to the garage and I’ve started doing all of this stuff, tearing the place apart, trying to atone for all of the shame and and to create a very frustrating dynamic where it says, oh, I wish I didn’t break up. 01:01:10:11 – 01:01:23:27 Speaker 3 And then you say, I can’t bring it up because that’s just how they respond. And that is, it can often be a pretty devastating cycle to, to to feel kind of like locked in. But, 01:01:24:00 – 01:01:29:25 Speaker 3 I’m like, it can be overcome. Work with couples who work their way through it and 01:01:30:03 – 01:01:36:17 Speaker 3 The way somebody acts to and how they react, it’s just like. 01:01:36:20 – 01:01:47:12 Speaker 3 Has a lot even less to do with you as a spouse. That’s like doing the asking or the or the acknowledging of let’s say, 01:01:47:14 – 01:01:50:14 Rebecca Dishes are an easy one because it’s in every house. The dishes. 01:01:50:16 – 01:01:51:13 Keith Yeah. 01:01:51:16 – 01:02:15:08 Speaker 3 And the more language you have around it, maybe it’s still the language of neurodivergent. Maybe it’s through the language of family system history. I was there household. Like, could they ever do anything right? You know, and when you get more language around that, you start to kind of see things that otherwise just kind of come into the relationship. 01:02:15:08 – 01:02:40:13 Speaker 3 And we do a lot of, kind of taking what exists in that space between couples. And we just kind of put it off to the side, and we observe it almost like a consultant. But and then we start to kind of say, like, hey, did you realize that all of these, we call it cycles or systems or just kind of and they’re tricks for it to become predictable and it becomes less about the individual. 01:02:40:14 – 01:02:41:02 Keith Yeah. 01:02:41:05 – 01:02:54:19 Speaker 3 And just kind of more about, a larger, more neutralized conversation about just like, hey, this thing, this ADHD is and it’s not really going anywhere. 01:02:54:19 – 01:02:56:20 Keith And yeah. 01:02:56:25 – 01:03:35:21 Rebecca That’s an understatement. Yeah. I’m wondering on that note, well, you can write one more of mine. Conner’s is, when I again, I’m I’m and I’m curious. I’m curious to hear what what our listeners think that because we so rarely actually talk about us personally. We just talk about the data. But I’m like, hey, I am now the the example point for us to jump off and talk about data with, but something when it comes to those hard conversations and feeling like, how do you make them a neutral conversation that can’t, I have realized is we kind of accidentally just created, like conflict safe words or it’s like we just need and what 01:03:35:21 – 01:03:52:23 Rebecca ours is, we just need to figure this out. And I know that sounds really silly, but we realized whenever we say we need to figure this out, I’m like, oh, he’s not mad at me. He doesn’t think I’m doing a bad job, or I’m not telling him, like, you’re not doing your part and you’re being awful. Like we actually we see it as a problem that we’re both seeing it together. 01:03:52:23 – 01:04:14:03 Rebecca And we ended up just being like, no, this is a fit. And we now say this is the figuring it out kind of conversation, or we use that kind of a language versus like, we need to talk, which is like, okay, someone’s angry, but we have different kind of like words that trigger like, oh no, this is just a logistics versus a actual relational conflict. 01:04:14:06 – 01:04:16:20 Rebecca Is that a common, helpful thing? 01:04:16:24 – 01:04:18:01 Rebecca Safe words are green. 01:04:18:03 – 01:04:29:15 Speaker 3 So I’m always green. Yeah. You know, unless it’s like, again, they’re the parts of our brains that have pattern recognition. 01:04:29:18 – 01:04:31:17 Keith Yes, yes. 01:04:31:20 – 01:04:33:02 Speaker 3 Right. Like boundaries, for example. 01:04:33:02 – 01:04:34:07 Rebecca Exactly. 01:04:34:10 – 01:04:42:00 Speaker 3 If it’s, kind of, unique and, and, positive. Yeah. 01:04:42:03 – 01:05:04:08 Rebecca Because we still have the conversations where, like, we feel where it’s, it’s higher stress and it’s more emotional and like we actually are having to have the conversation, but you actually did do something wrong or you did hurt me here. But it’s nice to no longer have the emotionality on the conversations that don’t need it, because it’s like then the then the emotional stress can be saved for the conversations that actually do naturally bring some emotional stress. 01:05:04:08 – 01:05:22:04 Rebecca Instead of being so burnt out from all the conversations that could have just been, who’s actually going to pick the kid up from preschool conversation? I will just say, if you’re someone who you’re like, I don’t even know why we’re fighting or how we got here. That was one that really helped me encounter and and yeah, that might that might be some that’s beneficial for sure. 01:05:22:04 – 01:05:24:03 Speaker 3 Yeah. No. And there’s, 01:05:24:07 – 01:05:42:00 Speaker 3 it’s, I think it’s important to recognize that, like, those reactions. Those like, reactions I would like otherwise just kind of like, shut down conversation and communication and things like that. A lot of that is, the individual trying to manage their own anxiety. 01:05:42:02 – 01:05:42:13 Keith Yes. 01:05:42:18 – 01:06:16:11 Speaker 3 Anxiety in particular. And. I guess like what I the reason I bring that up is like a lot of those strategies and compensations are holdovers from, what we would otherwise have done as children who didn’t have that context. Right. We probably maybe didn’t have the power to, express their needs, no less have their needs met or have them taken seriously. 01:06:16:13 – 01:06:22:10 Speaker 3 And we developed this like really and you’ve, you’ve often joked about, you know, Connor doesn’t have this voice. I have this voice right. 01:06:22:17 – 01:06:23:27 Keith Yes. 01:06:24:00 – 01:06:26:06 Speaker 3 This inner voice. I will back us into a corner. 01:06:26:06 – 01:06:27:15 Keith Yeah. 01:06:27:18 – 01:07:10:08 Speaker 3 Well honestly it will just like really, in the, in most exquisitely in abusive ways. And those are not our partners voice. They, it is, it’s so necessary that we kind of start to rely less on those kind of, you know, internal kind of mechanisms of, how we try to censor ourselves, how we try to, guide or direct our behavior in very harsh ways. 01:07:10:10 – 01:07:12:17 Speaker 3 I don’t know how often, 01:07:12:17 – 01:07:31:22 Speaker 3 you guys quote scripture. And so, yeah, come back to it, like with, with ADHD, and, and I think with just like human personalities and development, like, and you know, it’s I misquote this like I always think of, I think as Paul, you said, right. Like just like asceticism, harsh treatment of the body appears like. 01:07:31:25 – 01:07:32:08 Keith Yes. 01:07:32:14 – 01:07:39:01 Speaker 3 Like, hey, this is this is the strategy. This is going to work. Let’s be just impossibly. 01:07:39:03 – 01:07:39:18 Keith Strict. 01:07:39:22 – 01:08:00:11 Speaker 3 Strict. But it’s good for the heart to be strengthened by grace. And, the ADHD version of this is like, the good news is just like every solution is, it gets the benefit of being enormously kind, actually, unreasonably kind. Also, a lot of us with ADHD aren’t really going to be like, status quo kind of people. 01:08:00:16 – 01:08:34:08 Speaker 3 Yeah. Whether or not we, we come across as rebellious or stubborn or like, whatever it is, but like, the solutions that we come to, the, relational strategies that we employ, he has unreasonably kind, as you can possibly be, engage in your interests if things if a strategy seems boring or a high effort or whatever, don’t do it and and maybe have like 3 or 4 have a bit of a toolbox because, like, I wouldn’t even rely on us to do that. 01:08:34:10 – 01:08:37:13 Speaker 3 One good strategy even consistently. 01:08:37:15 – 01:08:38:02 Keith Yeah. 01:08:38:05 – 01:08:39:09 Speaker 3 But to 01:08:39:14 – 01:08:42:15 Speaker 3 take away, like, take that out of the dynamic, 01:08:42:15 – 01:08:49:11 Speaker 3 all of those years of those internalization so that, let’s say, like, and I don’t know if you mentioned like I have. Yeah, I mentioned at the start, I. 01:08:49:14 – 01:08:50:06 Keith I’m yeah. 01:08:50:08 – 01:08:50:25 Speaker 3 Partner. 01:08:50:28 – 01:08:51:24 Keith Yeah. 01:08:51:27 – 01:08:57:19 Rebecca Which is great for having both the ADHD partners chatting. And it’s good. We have one woman, one man. It’s great. 01:08:57:21 – 01:08:58:21 Speaker 3 Well I mean yeah. 01:08:58:21 – 01:09:03:24 Rebecca And Jocelyn Cotter can do their own podcast later. 01:09:03:26 – 01:09:06:05 Speaker 3 I was going to say, 01:09:06:07 – 01:09:23:04 Rebecca what I’m hearing is when it comes to, like, figuring out how are we accommodating ADHD, how are we making this work in our marriages? How are we having a thriving relationship when one partner has ADHD and and will be very honest? And that is it does create a bit of a burden for the neurotypical spouse. 01:09:23:04 – 01:09:53:18 Rebecca It just does. And I think people who say otherwise, I don’t think that’s helpful. I don’t think it’s helpful to to smother the truth, to make it more palatable. I think it’s okay to say no, there’s some benefits and there are some drawbacks, but the answer is to approach it with kindness, with grace, with mercy and expectations and boundaries, rather than just it being well, in fact, because kindness and grace without expectations is just infantilizing. 01:09:53:20 – 01:10:13:25 Rebecca It’s I can’t expect you to do this. And so I’m just going to. Well, I have, I’m just I just can’t have expectations of you. But you can both be kind and understanding and be like, no, this is we are in this together. Even though, yes, this is your neurodiversity, but it is kind of our ADHD as the couple. 01:10:13:25 – 01:10:32:05 Rebecca You can you can do that while still having the expectations, the boundaries that minimum community standards. And you can have those through strong communication, which again, if you guys are really struggling with that, that is the kind of thing that therapists are really, really good at. I know a lot of people ask, why do people go to marriage counseling and people think it’s only because you want to get divorced. 01:10:32:08 – 01:10:50:09 Rebecca That’s not the only reason to go to marriage counseling. These kinds of conversations are often really hard to have or feel like you’re having them in a safe space, especially if you weren’t raised in a family that gave you really healthy attachment, which I happen to be someone who has ADHD and really, really healthy attachment because of my parents. 01:10:50:11 – 01:11:02:02 Rebecca And that is actually quite rare. And so if you’re struggling with these conversations, that’s what a therapist is really darn good for. I will. 01:11:02:05 – 01:11:16:03 Speaker 3 I would, I would even say though, like, be discerning. Yes. Searching for a therapist. I would highly recommend, therapists that are, explicitly, versed in ADHD. 01:11:16:06 – 01:11:16:19 Rebecca Yes. 01:11:16:24 – 01:11:35:10 Speaker 3 Because typical, kind of suggestions will and respect your intelligence. Yeah. Go with it. Like I if right like I if you if those solutions would have worked they would have worked by now. 01:11:35:12 – 01:11:37:25 Keith You would have found and I. 01:11:37:27 – 01:11:47:28 Speaker 3 I wonder the type I would imagine that the person listening to a talk like this to is the really high functioning partner. 01:11:48:01 – 01:11:49:19 Keith Yes, probably. 01:11:49:24 – 01:12:06:11 Speaker 3 You know, and and the feelings that you are experiencing are like, that I think that has to be said. There’s a lot of good research that shows that it’s there are levels of anxiety and depression that are consistent with basically caregiver fatigue. 01:12:06:13 – 01:12:06:25 Keith Yeah. 01:12:06:28 – 01:12:21:13 Speaker 3 The responsibility of managing the ADHD is, I would say proportionately, the majority of the responsibility is on the ADHD part, 01:12:21:16 – 01:12:25:24 Speaker 3 But that individual needs a holding space. 01:12:25:28 – 01:12:28:00 Keith Okay. 01:12:28:02 – 01:13:07:27 Speaker 3 And you need just a lot of good language between each of you. Good understanding. So that kind of those those kind of, compensations, whether or not it’s, just kind of overt, rejection stomping, yelling or withdrawal tactics, kind of passive aggressive body language like, if the strategies of just kind of, compensating for that, if you feel stuck, you know, just kind of bogged down in that. 01:13:07:27 – 01:13:19:25 Speaker 3 It’s like, yes, there if it would have worked. But now it works and you are tired and, yes, therapy. Absolutely. 01:13:19:28 – 01:13:39:09 Rebecca And you’re not a bad spouse for being tired. And I think that, that often needs to be said because I know a lot of people feel guilty because they’re like, I the he can’t help it or she can’t help it. Why does this wear on me so much? I’m like, well, first of all, they need to be doing their part to make it not wear on you as much. 01:13:39:09 – 01:14:00:11 Rebecca But also it’s because it is hard sometimes. And, responsible spouse with ADHD will also recognize and appreciate, that it is hard on you and also that they they love that you’re helping them. I mean, that’s how I feel about Connor, right? But yeah, I just thank you very much for coming in, Dan, and doing my silly little game and talking about some of the things that Conner and I do. 01:14:00:13 – 01:14:23:16 Rebecca And I hope that people who are listening can understand that, like, shame doesn’t fix it. Like you said, I love what you said. If shame fix it. By now, we’d all be She-Hulk, right? I don’t know if you do that now or if you said it at a small group. We were at, but at some point you said that at some point you said that when we were chatting, if shame fixed ADHD, we’d all be healed by now. 01:14:23:18 – 01:14:30:27 Rebecca But last accommodation. I want you to flip really quick for medication. Grain. 01:14:31:00 – 01:14:37:21 Speaker 3 And I’m not. Yeah. And so in terms of my, kind of boundaries of my own profession, I don’t obviously. 01:14:37:24 – 01:14:38:07 Keith Yeah. 01:14:38:10 – 01:15:15:11 Speaker 3 I have, these are really important conversations to have, a lot of, accumulation of the best literature always points to medication being generally the gold standard for frontline, treatment. It’s, I whether or not like, it’s a fair equivalency, but, insulin and diabetes, you know, and like, it’s just, it’s, of course we’re as a culture as individuals, we’re, we’re we’re certainly not neutral on the. 01:15:15:13 – 01:15:16:10 Keith Yes. 01:15:16:13 – 01:15:42:17 Speaker 3 I shall not fabulously, but like, Yeah. It’s, is a it’s really important. I, I typically see or I align with the advice that it’s usually before you explore or even behavioral intervention. Yeah. You explore kind of other, treatments, and, and even like nutraceuticals and stuff like. 01:15:42:18 – 01:15:43:01 Keith Yep. 01:15:43:04 – 01:15:53:12 Speaker 3 Like the, the research on that is, is, pretty, pretty desperate and and and spotty as well. 01:15:53:15 – 01:16:01:10 Speaker 3 is an important. Yeah. So an important conversation to have with your family doctor, with the prescriber, with a, psychiatrist. 01:16:01:12 – 01:16:21:22 Rebecca And I know sometimes this is different in the U.S, I don’t know exactly how. Well, however, you would get medication, whichever you’d go to there. I know when I was, I was thinking about it, a long time ago, actually, for a different, Well, I think I’ve been open on the podcast about how I had to go on antidepressant, meds when I was pregnant because of just a lot of stuff that was going on. 01:16:21:25 – 01:16:37:20 Rebecca And I was I was one of those people who who had this internalized feeling of, I shouldn’t have to. And that for some reason, if I was on medication, that means I hadn’t tried hard enough right? Because I know that’s a that’s a really normal and common kind of bias that often happens. And it it’s, it’s not healthy. 01:16:37:20 – 01:16:53:18 Rebecca And I don’t agree with that anymore. But the way that my dad actually explained it to me, which was so life changing and I and I saw it for the ADHD meds as well, is that, listen, you’re trying to do a chin up and you don’t have enough muscles to do a chin up. What the medication is, is it’s that tension. 01:16:53:20 – 01:17:20:04 Rebecca It’s that it’s that machine where it counteracts your body weight and it just takes the weight off enough that you’re able to do the things that you know that you need to do to feel better. And that was exactly how I found ADHD meds worked, is it’s like, oh, you mean this can actually make it so that it’s not that it does focusing for me, it’s not that it does the work for me, but it makes it so that now the load is light enough that I actually can carry it. 01:17:20:06 – 01:17:48:09 Rebecca So I do want to say that we always are going to promote the best evidence based treatments. And yes, absolutely, if you have ADHD, if it’s impacting your relationship, if you haven’t tried the evidence based treatments that might be something which you talk to a doctor about. We are not doctors we cannot prescribe. That is something which you should talk to your doctor about and get the appropriate, the appropriate recommendations for you, because there might be other conditions or something that makes us of you cannot be on those medications. 01:17:48:09 – 01:18:10:15 Rebecca So we are not saying browbeat your doctor until they give you a diagnosis or a medication. What we are saying is talk to the professionals that you would talk to to figure out what is right for you. But if you’re holding out because of bias, because of beliefs about how you should be able to do it without medication, you are listening to an evidence based podcast, and we are simply never going to agree with that because it’s not evidence based. 01:18:10:20 – 01:18:17:21 Speaker 3 Yeah, it is the if I were writing, a checklist, it would be Explore. 01:18:17:21 – 01:18:18:29 Keith Medication. 01:18:19:01 – 01:18:29:20 Speaker 3 Explorer, a form of psychotherapy that aligns with you, whether it be, couples or individual and, exercise. 01:18:29:26 – 01:18:30:20 Keith Yes. 01:18:30:22 – 01:18:31:10 Speaker 3 Right. 01:18:31:12 – 01:18:31:27 Keith Yeah. 01:18:31:29 – 01:18:46:00 Speaker 3 And, a lot of it because, again, it doesn’t create. No, no exacerbates the universals and so, all worth exploring what’s Yeah. Yeah. 01:18:46:03 – 01:19:04:00 Rebecca I think, well, thank you so much for coming in. Thank you for your first time on our podcast. Yeah. And it’s so fun having a licensed counselor friend so I can be like, can you come in somewhat psychoanalyze my relationship on my podcast? And you’re like, yeah, that sounds great. So I appreciate this so much, Dan, thank you very much. 01:19:04:02 – 01:19:04:25 Speaker 3 Yeah. Thank you.