What if a guy is struggling with lust, but honestly wants to do better?
But at the same time, he finds that when he’s out in public, he DOES immediately focus on women’s body parts or imagine them naked. He doesn’t want to. He’s in counseling. He’s trying to stop it.
I was recently in a Facebook conversation with a guy who was explaining that he agreed with me that guys shouldn’t objectify women, and that “bouncing your eyes” was just avoiding the problem. It was still treating women like a threat rather than like a whole person.
But his problem was–what do you do in the interim when you’re healing? You don’t want to lust. You don’t want to objectify. But you find that bouncing your eyes at least helps you not picture someone naked.
(For a reminder for those dear souls who are blessed enough to have not endured it, the book series Every Man’s Battle suggests “bouncing your eyes” away from women as a way to fight lust. They even say that if you walk into an office, you should immediately look away, since offices have receptionists, and receptionists are usually women, and receptionists often bend over.
Basically they’re advocating pretending that women are invisible, which is still objectifying women. Just because you’re not lusting doesn’t mean you’re not objectifying.)
I understand this man’s issue, but I pushed back that bouncing your eyes isn’t the solution.
I said to him:
The problem is that by ignoring her or refusing to look at her, you’re transferring your shame onto her.
So you feel shame from lust, and you don’t want to continue that and you want to honor her. But if, when you’re out in public or at church, you have to turn away from women or pretend women aren’t there, you’re making her feel like there’s something wrong with her. So now you get to feel like you’re acting honorably, but all you have done is made the situation shaming and unsafe for her.
You’re making her carry what you haven’t dealt with yet. And that’s not okay.
The number of women I have talked to who said that men in church refuse to look at them is staggering. Here’s just one anecdote we included in The Great Sex Rescue:
From The Great Sex Rescue
I was on a Christian-based tour, and my sister and I got into the elevator with two other couples from the group. We said hi and smiled; we didn’t know the couples, but we did know one thing. The men were both pastors. So it was a bit more pointed when each of them offered up a short, formal “hello” before physically turning their heads and refusing to look at me.
No eye contact. Barely an acknowledgment.
I was wearing a floor length sleeveless jumpsuit with a square neckline. Not tight, not low-cut. But I don’t think it would have mattered either way. I wasn’t a person, a human, a woman, a sister in that elevator. I was a potential stumbling block, an object. I was a walking, talking collection of tempting body parts.
I was the enemy.
It was dehumanization at its finest.
Bouncing your eyes isn’t a solution. But what is?
Well, we asked on Facebook (have you joined our new Facebook page since the old one was stolen?) , and so many of you gave amazing answers!
So here are just a few summarized:
Define Lust
Maybe it would be helpful to define terms so his struggles aren’t as ambiguous, and are therefore more manageable?
This is my understanding (open to criticism)
- Lust is NOT noticing that someone is attractive, or noticing their body parts
- Lust is NOT feeling mildly aroused because you saw something that was attractive (in the same way hunger is a passing feeling when you see or smell good food and that doesn’t make you a glutton.)
- Lust IS using someone/fantasies about them to stroke, tease, or titillate your sexual arousal.
Maybe once he understands that some of the things labeled as “lust” are normal human experiences, he will not feel unnecessarily guilty, or won’t fight battles that he doesn’t have to. Often what is normal and human is demonized by church culture, and folks feel they are winning for simply being human.
It is his responsibility not to use other people to intentionally arouse himself; that’s a voluntary, and intentional action that he can focus on controlling.
This is one of the biggest problems I see with young men raised in the strict purity culture. They are terrified to interact with women they may find attractive because they don’t know the difference between healthy attraction to a potential spouse and the lustful predator they were raised to believe all men are. So the more conscientious among them wind up staying away from women completely out of fear of lust.
Find a therapist to work with:
For any one in the situation… Definitely the counseling will help tremendously, in hopes that they can get to the root cause of this issue… I’ve seen it break marriages either way. Praying that all goes well with this family.
As a therapist I have seen clients with this issue connected to OCD and scrupulosity. That might be something to explore with his therapist. Also, neuroplasticity means that if he uses his internal feelings of “lust” as an opportunity to practice thought stopping and cognitive reframing, he can actually change his body responses to visual cues. He might also look into internal family systems (see Alison Cook’s work and that of your recent guest Merry Lin, [and her book] “Rebecoming”) for help with this.
Honour women’s humanity:
I happen to have nine biological sisters and one adopted sister. Each one is beautiful. I do not (and have never) lust after any of them.
I treat women, other than my wife, just as I would my sister. It’s not that hard. Doesn’t scripture say we’re all brothers and sisters?
As a man, I have found that looking a woman in the eye and remembering that she’s created in the image of God to be very helpful and respectful.
So in my journey of healing coming out of a porn addiction, it took a long time for me to feel like I could interact with men in a healthy way. A decade later there are still moments when my thought go the wrong direction, but I’ve gotten better at redirecting.
One thing that helped me reframe how I see men was to relearn how to have small talk discussions. Asking how their week was, how was work, how was the family, etc. Giving them space to tell a bit of their story meant my focus was now on their personhood rather than their body (and also, I have auditory processing issues that mean I partially lip read in loud or crowded situations so I know the shape of the word I’m looking for).
Basically, this brother needs to engage with women in a way that isn’t visual, and it can help his brain relearn that women are also people with dreams, goals, difficulties and challenges just the same as he is.
Hi I don’t generally chime in but as a husband father and general male what he is dealing with is “thingifiying.” When a person reduces the person they care about to an object and a person can own a object.
Breaking the objectification of a person and making them see you as the person who loves them and who loves you.
Good luck and God bless
Understand that your brain/body have been trained to respond a certain way AND that you can rewire your response:
Fake it ‘til you make it.
It’s not necessarily what’s going on in his head (or elsewhere) that’s right or wrong, it’s how he responds to it.
Just because he’s noticing/thinking about her body doesn’t mean he has to treat her as though he is.
It’s about how he behaves. Behave as though she’s fully human (because she is) treat her as though she’s fully human. One way I’ve heard suggested for how a man can figure out how to do this is to imagine she is Dwayne the Rock Johnson and behave as respectfully to her as he would to The Rock!
In other words, if his brain is objectifying her–fake it. Pretend you’re not doing, act as though your brain isn’t doing.
Eventually your brain will catch-up, it’s how we retrain our brains. But even if it hasn’t, you’ve done the right thing and that’s what’s important.
My response would be… if you can train yourself to bounce your eyes, you can train yourself to say the words “my sister in Christ I give you the respect my Heavenly Father requires.”
Understand that noticing is not the same as lusting:
As someone who dealt with pornography for 20 years, I can see the guys mentality in feeling shame. I’ll say this noticing a woman’s beauty isn’t lusting after her. I can notice someone is attractive or even give a compliment without in my mind undressing them or thinking other perverse stuff. He just needs to be aware of what his triggers are. And not beat himself up because he notices a woman is attractive. The thoughts may always come because of the enemy, but it’s how you react to them that’s the key…
I feel like he is still probably trapped in the belief that noticing is the same as lusting.
He is free to notice! He is even free to have a natural biological response (get “turned on”) by beauty.
As long as he isn’t turning that noticing into sexual rumination, it isn’t lust!
It’s hard to say without knowing exactly what he defines as lust, but avoiding women isn’t going to fix this. SEEING women is. Seeing them as whole people, beloved by God and with inherent worth and value.
They just have to repeatedly tell themselves that women are not objects to be consumed. It’s Ok to notice. Affirm what your eyes are seeing: “yep- she’s attractive AND she’s not an object. She’s a daughter and a sister.”
Then you move on with your mind. That’s how I do it.
It also helps to really understand who Jesus is, and what He’s done for me. My commitment to follow Him and BE LIKE HIM. That helps the most I think.
Have compassion and curiosity for your responses:
Few things:
- Like triggers, you can’t completely control thoughts that pop in your mind at the spur of the moment.
- Even Phillipians 4:8 doesn’t condemn you for spontaneous thoughts you have. What it says is simply what sort of thoughts you should dwell and meditate on. In the long run, what you dwell on most eventually becomes the default response and pattern of thoughts you will have.
- Sometimes if you feel condemned because of spontaneous thoughts it becomes harder to resist and redirect from them because you’re condemning yourself for having them in the first place. That’s why you need to be graceful to yourself – if your mind veers to inappropriate thoughts, kindly say no, that’s not how I’m going to think and redirect to something wholesome.
#3 is actually based on a meditation technique. When people start meditating, they tend to drift off – the advice given is to gently bring your thoughts back to what you’re focusing on. Like this – don’t berate yourself, just gently bring your thoughts back to seeing her as a whole person. Others have already talked about the sort of things you can redirect towards.
Maybe, with the help of his counselor, look into why he can’t see a woman as a human and not a sex object. Maybe realizing that society has made that a masculine trait and he can be masculine without objectifying women, will help. Sometimes, for me, realizing I’ve been conditioned to do something helps me see it differently and it’s easier to tackle.
Women shouldn’t have to bear men’s shame.
If men can’t be out in public without causing shame to women, they shouldn’t be out in public. So, please, Christian men–get this right. If you want to do right by women, then transferring shame onto them isn’t okay. It isn’t honorable.
And please know that you can get free of this too! So much of it is rooted in the idea that lust is indeed every man’s battle, and rooted in the confusion that noticing is lusting. It’s not.
And I pray that one day you can get to the root of this and feel free of shame!
What do you think? Have men made you feel shame for being female? As a guy, do you have a hard time figuring out what’s respectful? Let’s talk in the comments!
Curt Thompson has offered a lot of work on how to interact with beauty in general. When “beauty” is distorted and mistreated in one area, it is in other areas as well. Learning to notice and find beauty in (and not objectifying) nature, music, art, literature, history, engineering, medicine, etc helps heal the brain and remap one’s brain for beauty and objectification of people.
In addition, knowing that objectifying people is often linked to pornography consumption, Michael John Cusick http://www.restoringthesoul.com is a wonderful resources as well.
I’m glad he wants to change, really.
One way that he could take a first step is to NOT ASK WOMEN TO SOLVE HIS PROBLEM FOR HIM.
He’s a grown man. There are resources available. Why can’t he take initiative to find them on his own, rather than asking women to give him some shortcuts?
Will he even really LISTEN TO and ACCEPT and ACT ON the suggestions of mere women? These are theoretical people (in the sense that women may not be fully himan the way men obviously are) whom he already holds in pretty strong disregard. Why would he respect, let alone act on, anything they might say?
Just one more 🤬 area of emotional labor and mental work that this man, at least, expects some lowly women to take on with no thought that maybe women have better things to do with their time and energy than ease the way even more for the half of the population that tends to hold them in such contempt in the first place.
Just one more area of weaponized incompetence.
🤬
Boom.
I don’t want to dismiss this man’s desire for help, but yes, HE needs to be doing HIS OWN work. Men, you are every bit as capable of using the internet as your wives and sisters are, and maybe you need to be sitting down at the computer and doing the correct google searches, instead of relying on us to tell you where to look.
So yes, glad you’re trying, but don’t put the work back on the women again.
I think that complementarianism is responsible for this problem not only because of purity culture, but also because it prevents men from actually getting to know women on anything more than a superficial level. In the church that I no longer attend (I was there for a couple of years because it took me that long to clue in to what was happening — I had never even heard the term “complementarian” before), the pastor absolutely refused to allow us to separate into small groups during Bible study on any basis other than gender. Men and women never sat at the same table and talked with each other. And — no coincidence — I found that the men seemed unable to speak to me at all without condescension. They were courteous, sometimes kind, but always patronizing. (I’m sure they pat dogs on the head, too.) As someone who was accustomed to being highly respected in my professional life, I found this shocking. I think part of the solution is for men to have to work with women, side by side. This is theoretical, I know, in the context of complementarian churches, but it is necessary. I think it’s difficult to patronize or objectify someone who demonstrates again and again that she is a whole person with important things to contribute, someone you have to relate to as the unique and valuable person that she is, someone who may even be more capable than you are. I have to wonder how many of these men who bounce their eyes actually work closely with women in their jobs or in any other context. Once you actually get to know someone, it is much harder to dehumanize them or see them as “other”.
I find it troubling that this question even needs to be asked. If you want to start viewing women as people, not sex objects, then TREAT them as people. If you’re talking to a woman, make eye contact. Just like you would if you were talking to a man. Because while staring over her head might help you avoid looking like an obvious creep, you are belittling her humanity just as much as as the guy who stares pointedly at her chest.
I wish men could understand that not all men lust after the same figures/parts/physical characteristics. Some may want long, brown hair. If that’s the case, do all women with long, brown hair need to put their hair up in a bun or under a hat? Ok, well if that is your demand then YOU have just “caused” brothers to lust who have an affinity for exposed necks. Want women to cover up completely? Then you have just “caused” the brothers who love the mystery of what’s under clothing to sin.
Each of us are responsible for our own sin, and as such need to seek the Lord in how to repent- which often involves seeking out those who are wiser than us such as counselors and therapists. I think in this day and age, we also want the quick, easy fixes, and retraining our brains to not objectify takes time and effort. God never said repentance and changed behavior was going to be easy.
Maybe controversial, but I’d be inclined to say it’s WORSE for a guy to bounce his eyes and ignore a woman than it is to look and deal with lustful fantasies.
The former is a physical, tangible thing that does direct harm to another person by making them feel invisible.
The latter is all in your head.
If you’re bouncing your eyes to ‘cure’ lust, that’s not really a cure, that’s just perpetuating lust, it’s taking it from an internal fantasy nobody but God knows about, to actual lived-out harm to the women in your life. The problem with bouncing eyes is that you are prioritising your own internal experience and your individual spirituality over the wellbeing of your community. Look at her. Speak to her. And deal with your own sin on your own.
I think that’s a good point actually. One of reasons is ,when they teach men to “Bounce their Eyes , it’s hyping up and making the sight of women and body parts taboo. The problem is when something becomes more taboo, it ends up become more tantalizing and it makes men even more drawn to it.
It’s the Forbidden Fruit Effect. Apostle Paul talks about this in Romans concerning the Law.
When I was a newer believer having come out of a hedonistic lifestyle, I once experienced false guilt and shame for an attraction toward a godly brother when was actually simply admiring Christ in him. (When I inquired of the Lord about my “attraction” the Holy Spirit revealed to me I was only admiring Christ in him). This set me free to continue to love him and not fear him.
I’m thinking that men may experience this towards women, as well, but, not only do they interpret it as lust, but they have the added false teachings of superiority over women that forbids them from thinking it’s okay to admire Christ in women at all!
They can’t hear the Holy Spirit tell them it’s okay. It doesn’t fit their theology. What do you think?
I wrote a longer comment. Maybe it will show up later. Or maybe I took too long and it got lost somewhere in between writing it and hitting the submit button. Could be the connection had gotten broken.
I don’t have it in me to replicate what I wrote. But I love your insight. I think you are onto something. You got to the heart of the matter. This is what it’s all about. When we look into the face of the other, we should always see the face of an image-bearer. If we’re looking into the face of another believer, we should be seeing reflected back to us a temple in which the Holy Spirit is dwelling. Or rather a stone of the temple of the New Jerusalem.
I think you’re onto something! Evangelical men feeling admiration for a woman, but they’re told they can’t look up to women, hence cognitive dissonance. . . pair this with low emotional intelligence and you’ve got a bunch of guys feeling good-bad and thinking that is lust + conviction because they can’t conceive of admiring a woman
I’d challenge this man to think about it this way: imagine you lived in a society where homosexuality was completely acceptable, no stigma at all. Assuming this guy is straight, if he knew that a fellow Christian man was same-sex attracted, how would he want that man to treat *him*? I’m assuming normally, respectfully, and as un-awkwardly as possible. How could this theoretical man achieve that? After thinking about that, he can follow his own advice.
Now, now, JoB, can’t have logic in this discussion.
(My thought analogy was how would a man who is one of the smallest inmates in a prison like to be treated by the much larger inmates, but your version is much more gentle, so kudos to you.)
Thankfully when I read one of these books I understood that not all men have an issue with sexual sin. I didn’t blame women for my own shortcomings and instead stopped staring out of respect. How this is different is you stop objectifying women and understand they are made in the image of God. I wouldn’t blame them I knew I was responsible. Then I found to love honor and vacuum and you said looking is not lusting. This helped me out a lot to know noticing is not lusting. God bless you all and thank you for all the work everyone does and will do at Bare marriage.
Perhaps it would also be helpful to consider how we are taught to manage our first reaction when we see a person whose appearance might provoke aversion rather than attraction. For example, seeing someone with a disfigurement, a disability or an unhygienic appearance could initially provoke a startle reaction, or a momentary feeling of disgust or fear. Some might choose to dwell on this reaction (the “lusting” equivalent of aversion) through cruelty, mockery or contempt. Some might do the opposite and avoid looking at the person or interacting with them (the “bounce your eyes” equivalent). However, fortunately in this day and age, we are encouraged to reject both of those options, to move past any initial involuntary reaction, and to focus on the person as a person.
To quote Lisa Johns above, “Boom.”
Great parallel, thank you.
One of the reasons why so many guys ““ struggle with lost is because they’re try not to think about sexual thoughts it’s been proven that when you try not to think about something or suppress it actually causes you to think about it if you are more in the thoughts actually become more entangling and they come up in the mind even more frequently and stronger.
https://www.psypost.org/attempts-suppress-sexual-thoughts-result-increase-thoughts/
One of the people that is quoted in the article who says she’s a therapist is recommending “thought stopping” this is not the best strategy.
When they teach men to “Bounce their Eyes , it’s hyping up and making the sight of women and body parts taboo. The problem is when something becomes more taboo, it ends up become more tantalizing and it makes men even more drawn to it.
It’s the Forbidden Fruit Effect. Apostle Paul talks about this in Romans concerning the Law.
The BYE instills fear. Because of the fear and anxiety that guys have that they’re gonna lust it makes women more overwhelming, it makes the situation and environment around women more intense which ironically makes guys more affected and sexual tension to be greater.
Yes, I absolutely agree!
I found this article.
Everyman’s Battle basically frames that men naturally lust on account of being male.
It’s about Behavioral Confirmation, it’s states that people will behave in a way that is expected of them. So if the Christian community expects that men will have “lust problems” and will have problems controlling themselves, it will be far more likely that men will actually behave that way if fact it might cause them to act that way.
https://tammylenski.com/behavioral-confirmation-and-conflict/
Here is another article.
https://sciencebeta.com/behavioral-confirmation/
This is all really good. I think another helpful thing can be to pray for the person you see. If you feel attracted to a person and compelled to think about them, instead of using that to lust, turn that desire into an opportunity to pray for them. I think this can be a great way to honor them, care for them as a whole person, and honor your attraction to them. It’s probably not a good idea to dwell on them for a long time, even in prayer, but in the moment it can be good.