I’ve been doing podcast interviews about our new book The Marriage You Want all over the place!
And one that I landed last week was the Shifting Culture podcast.
Its host, Joshua Johnson, wrote an article on his substack about my interview on his podcast, and I was so moved by it I asked if I could publish it on my blog, and he agreed.
Sometimes listening to me on OTHER PEOPLE’S podcasts can be super informative, because I get the chance to summarize the book in one podcast (whereas on the Bare Marriage podcast we usually spend the whole hour doing a deep dive into one particular aspect).
I really appreciated his words, and I hope you do too (and listen to the podcast; it’s embedded at the end!)
There’s a grace, a quiet gravity, to a life shared well.
In the folds of ordinary days – the carrying out of trash, the managing of calendars, the brushing of crumbs from countertops, a marriage either grows rich in affection or withers beneath the strain of unattended injustice. Sheila Wray Gregoire, in her grounded and data-rich conversation on Shifting Culture, does not so much sound an alarm as she opens a window. Through it, we see the slow erosion that happens when marriages lean on hierarchy rather than mutuality, and also the light that floods in when two people endeavor to truly see one another.

Gregoire’s research, sourced from over 7,000 people, including 1,300 [matched pair] couples, lays bare a surprising truth: the greatest threat to marital health is not the expected culprits of money or sex. It is housework. Or, more precisely, the weight of unshared burdens.
“In the first five years of marriage,” she explains, “you can basically put up with anything… But by year fifteen, you can’t take it anymore.”
She describes what she and her team call the unfairness threshold: the cumulative toll when one partner silently carries more – of the chores, the childcare, the mental labor, the emotional repair work. Over time, inequity corrodes love not by force but by slow erosion, by the unanswered question, Why am I alone in this?
And so, in the deepest sense, a healthy marriage is a practice in shared humanity. It is a resistance against the temptation to reduce love to roles and responsibilities, especially those rooted in a theology of male authority and female submission. “If you go into marriage believing that he’s the tiebreaker,” Sheila says, “you take shortcuts. And those who believe in male headship tend to score much lower on emotional maturity.”
But what does maturity look like, really?
Perhaps it is the capacity to sit in a living room after the children are asleep, and ask each other, “What was your moment of desolation today? What was your consolation?” A ritual Sheila recommends, this practice invites both spouses to name not just the facts of their day but the shape of their inner lives. It is the habit of letting each other in.
There is a gentleness in this – an echo of the old truths. That to be known and to know is the beating heart of intimacy. That to carry one another’s burdens is not an act of charity, but the natural movement of love. That when we make space for the full personhood of the other, we are closest to the image of Christ.
One story Sheila shared sticks in the mind. A husband tells his wife, “Go out on Saturday morning. I’ve got the kids.” She returns to a house that on the surface seems calm – pancakes cooked, children smiling. But the science fair project has not progressed. The piano practicing has been forgotten. “You didn’t tell me,” the husband says. It is not malice, but a failure of attention – a forgetting that marriage is not about tasks completed, but about seeing what needs to be done and offering oneself to it, unasked.
This, Sheila insists, is what many women mean when they say they want their husband to “lead”: not to command, but to take initiative, to notice, to participate.
“It’s almost like unless you call it leading, he won’t do it. That’s a problem.”
The Marriage You Want is HERE!
It's time for HEALTHY and SAFE marriage advice!
It's time for a marriage book that doesn't leave you defeated or guilty--but instead leaves you empowered, hopeful, and excited.
It's evidence-based. It's got tons of charts! And it's fun.
Available in audio, ebook, or paperback, with an accompanying study guide, let's talk about the things that actually go into making a great marriage, rather than the things that evangelicals have tended to stress that all too often harm.
Together, we can change the evangelical conversation about marriage!
What then helps a couple thrive?
Not more commitment alone. Not promises to endure for endurance’s sake. Rather, a posture of holy curiosity. The gentle inquiry: Why does this keep happening? What do you need? What am I missing? And then the hard, gracious work of changing – together.
Flourishing comes not from assuming good intentions, but from being willing to name where things hurt and where things are unfair. “You can’t fully live in the present,” Sheila says, “until you address your past.” And so, she encourages couples to share their stories – the pain and the patterns, the early wounds that still throb when touched.
She tells of her three-year-old grandson naming disappointment at the park with quiet clarity. “A lot of us can’t do that at 33 or 53,” she says. But emotional language is not a genetic gift, it is a practiced art. And spouses can help each other learn it, if they are willing to be both patient and brave.
Ultimately, a thriving marriage is not built on roles or formulas or fixed commitments. It is built on mutuality. On vulnerability. On attention. On the sacred act of making space for the other’s full humanity. As Jesus said, “You will know them by their fruits.” And the fruits of mutual love, of shared labor, of kindness, of delight, are unmistakably good.
Marriage, then, at its best, is not a structure of authority, but a living testament: a slow, faithful revealing of one another in love. It is not without hardship. But neither is it without beauty. And in that patient, gentle work, we may just glimpse the kingdom.
So maybe this is the invitation for all of us who are married or want to be someday:
Not to master the role, but to learn the person.
Not to get your way, but to find the way together.
Not to win the fight, but to repair the bond.
Maybe it’s not about leadership or submission at all.
Maybe it’s just about showing up, again and again, until your life becomes a place where both of you can grow.
A marriage like that isn’t perfect. But it is holy.
If you listen to your podcasts somewhere else the link below will give you more options!
You know, I have started playing this otome game (I started wanting to play them again after your romance novel podcast) and I am currently playing one that takes place in Yomi in Japanese mythology (it’s called Hell in the English translation, but Yomi is more closer to Purgatory than the Christian version of Hell where you serve a sentence of punishment for a certain amount of centuries and how long and what punishment depends on your sins and after you are done with the punishment, you ascend rather than eternal damnation) and there is this woman who was in an abusive marriage with her husband and she killed her husband knowing that she would face divine punishment because “I have suffered so much on Earth that any suffering I am sentenced to in the afterlife would feel like nothing” and so when she died and she was sentenced to Yomi, she took her punishment so well that the Lord of Yomi that was overseeing her was so impressed that he gave her permission to visit Earth as a ghost and she befriended a paranormal investigator who would give her stuff on her grave and she laments that she wished she should have married a guy like that, but she was from a time where divorce was not possible.
I think about that character and wonder how many women after a while feel like the threats of going to Hell if they divorce start feeling very empty to them, especially if the marriage is toxic enough that they are like “I don’t care if I might be punished, I am already used to being punished and I just want out.” I know I felt that way at my lowest point my senior year of my Christian school where I faced a lot of spiritual abuse and was constantly told killing myself would send me to Hell, at one point I was like “I don’t care, my life is already Hell on Earth” (Luckily, my parents were able to pull me out of that environment before I did anything too drastic).
Luckily though, unlike my game, Jesus exists and those women will very likely not have to go through what that character in the game I am playing went through and find peace both on Earth and in Heaven.
I think many women can relate to that! I think when women finally leave abusive marriages, they’re like, “even if I lose everything, it’s still better than what I’ve endured.” Yep.
Men can relate to this too.
Why do you think so many male stories have a man go out leave a place that treats them poorly and decide you know what I’m gonna see the world and enjoy life.
I’ll be the person who does the cool stuff.
I’ll tell you as well plentyvof men would relate to the idea of dealing with pain is way better than being betrayed and humiliated
“especially if the marriage is toxic enough that they are like ‘I don’t care if I might be punished, I am already used to being punished and I just want out.'”
Worse – “I don’t care about the divine judgement of the allegedly ‘perfect’ being who created my body to be a masturbatory tool for an uncaring, selfish, abusive louse, and in fact, eternal separation from that being starts to sound like a good idea.”
If men want the services a wife provides but not the companionship and human connection that shes going to want and eventually demand, why don’t men simply hire out for the “domestic support” they need?
There are companies providing cleaning services, there are delivery services for both precooked foods and raw ingredients, there are providers willing to give those gotta-have-’em orgasms on demand, there are bookkeepers to handle the bills so the utilities stay on.
How about it, fellas?
(And for those who haven’t seen it, plenty of women would like that same level of “domestic support”:
http://www.columbia.edu/~sss31/rainbow/wife.html )