Sometimes the way we talk about sex is just plain, well, icky and weird.
We are so excited here at To Love, Honor and Vacuum, because in just 5 days our book The Great Sex Rescue officially launches! We’ve spent the last few weeks debunking some harmful teachings that we tackle in The Great Sex Rescue–like all men struggle with lust; you are his methadone for his porn addiction; you have to have sex when he wants it; you have to be the gatekeeper.
And today, to cap it all off, we thought we’d just go back to basics and ask for a healthy way to talk about sex that isn’t weird!
Or, of course, you can always watch it on YouTube!
Timeline of the Podcast:
0:25 The Great Sex Rescue arrives THIS WEEK!
1:15 Research on women believing their opinion is equal to their husbands’
4:15 The way the church talks about sex is WEIRD
9:20 Let’s discuss that ’72 Hour Rule’
17:45 Andrew Bauman joins for a discussion about “a pornographic view of sex”
29:00 Rebecca and Keith explain why it’s super WEIRD to talk about kids being sexual
40:50 Some encouragement from our community!
New Research: When women feel like their opinions are heard, sex is awesome
On the podcast today, we shared a NON-WEIRD finding–basically, when women feel as if their opinions are heard in marriage (meaning they feel valued by their husbands), sex is pretty awesome!
We looked at this chart from chapter 2 of our book, which is titled “Don’t Sleep with Someone You Don’t Know”, about how when you feel close to each other, sex improves:
Incidentally, we have charts like this throughout the book, with lots of data points on how all kinds of different beliefs and marital satisfaction or sexual satisfaction outcomes affect other aspects of your marriage. It’s super fun to look through!
So this is definitely NOT WEIRD. This makes sense. When you feel close, sex is better!
Main Segment: So Can We Stop Being Weird about Other Things?
The way the church talks about sex is often weird.
And also–where did that “72 hour” rule come from? Have you ever heard that? “You have to have sex with him every 72 hours or he’ll be very uncomfortable and he’ll watch porn or lust”? It’s throughout our Christian books. But Rebecca and I talk about the dive into the research we took to try to find the source of this rule (it will surprise you!). And it may also surprise you to know that the 72 hour rule is nowhere in medical literature. There is nothing magical about hour 72, even though that’s what we’ve always been taught.
Does that mean frequent sex doesn’t matter? No, of course not. But there is a big difference between saying:
You have to have sex with him every 72 hours or he will feel uncomfortable; he’ll become grumpy; and he’ll be very tempted to lust or watch porn.
And saying:
Sex is something awesome that God created for you! It helps you feel close; helps you relax; helps you sleep. And it feels wonderful. Why not prioritize it in your marriage and have it frequently? And if it’s not happening frequently, and you want it to, then it’s likely time to stop and ask, “What’s getting in the way of us enjoying each other?”
See the difference? One is weird. The other isn’t.
Andrew Bauman: Let’s talk about how to really heal a porn addiction.
Andrew Bauman, the author of The Sexually Healthy Man and a licensed counselor, joins us to talk about why simply trying harder doesn’t cure a porn addiction. He talks about how it’s important to understand that porn use often is an attempt to cover up woundedness. You need to allow that to be exposed in order to really achieve transformation and healing.
Let’s Not Sexualize Young Children
One of the weirdest, and most disturbing, things we saw recently was the way that young children were sexualized in some articles and books by Shaunti Feldhahn, and we just had to comment on it. In her book Through a Man’s Eyes, she’s talking about “the male brain”–the idea that God made men visual in a way that he didn’t make women visual. And what does the “male brain” mean?
I know it is difficult to grasp (and you might want to take a deep breath here), but this is one thing that your son, husband, and father all have in common: Most guys like looking at women. And they like looking at or imagining naked women.
…This is true whether the male in question is age nine or ninety.
In an article on her website, talking about the same thing and referencing the book, she says:
Yes, I knew men and boys were visual – but I didn’t really grasp just how visual until my son was thunderstruck by the pictures in the Victoria’s Secret shop window at age of 4. “I like those ladies,” he said, in an awed tone of voice, suddenly and completely oblivious to everything else around him. “Their bare tummies make my tummy feel good.” The male brain is the male brain from the earliest age, and as I share in Through A Man’s Eyes, that means we moms need to know how to help those little eyes be careful what they see from the earliest ages.
Keith and Rebecca took this part of the podcast to talk about how disturbing it is to assign sexual motives like this to a 9-year-old or a 4-year-old. Keith is a pediatrician; Rebecca is the mother of a toddler son.
Listen in to what they said, but I will say that after recording this, we found some even more disturbing things she has said about even younger boys, and I do think it’s important to not make arguments like this that could be used by pedophiles to justify what they do (pedophiles often advocate for changes in the law by claiming that children are sexual beings). In fact, we don’t become sexual like this until just before puberty, and if children are abnormally sexual, that’s often a red flag that something else is going on.
Some happy comments!
We ended the podcast with some happy comments about how the blog and podcasts have helped some people, and with one awesome review of The Great Sex Rescue!
I have followed Sheila’s blog, To Love, Honor, and Vacuum for several years. Coming from a background of legalism and purity culture, and being reluctant (loads of shame, feeling I was betraying my family and possibly the church, false guilt) to fully embrace the way she wrote about marriage, sex, and what it means to be a woman, I just periodically checked in. Over the past year or so, though, my sweet Savior has been gently leading me into a freedom and secure identity in Him alone that I never thought possible. When I heard Sheila was writing a book about sex, and that she had surveyed thousands of women in research for said book, my interest was piqued. I started devouring everything on her blog, reveling in the truths she and her team were shouting about marriage, sex, respect and equality. I was appalled to really dive into what the books that were lauded to me as the end-all, be-all of Christian marriage advice had actually done to my self-image, my confidence as a woman of God, and my trust in my good husband’s heart. Blog, podcast, the book was the next logical step. I pre-ordered and signed up for the launch team.
I’ve been married for nearly 14 years, have a good man for a husband, and though we’ve had our minor conflicts surrounding sex over the years it has always been GREAT. I really didn’t think the messages we both received about lust, women as stumbling blocks, porn, etc had affected our relationship until I read the book. I realized, even though I don’t believe those messages anymore, even though I trust my husband and feel secure in his love, I still have habits in ways I relate to him that are based in those views: That I could cause him to turn to porn by saying no to sex, that sex is something I owe him (even though it’s something we BOTH enjoy and he has always made my pleasure and orgasm a priority). As I read the book I found myself wanting to scream in anger, cry in frustration, and laugh with joy shouting “AMEN, SISTER!!!” “The Great Sex Rescue” will always be part of my freedom song.
There is no other book like this one speaking to the evangelical world. I will be recommending it to friends as often as I can: married, engaged, single. It’s message is life-giving and swelling with freedom for women who’ve been under the burden of these teachings for too long.
“Several hundred women, apparently, can be ignored. We hope the voices of twenty thousand will make people listen.”
"A groundbreaking look into what true, sacred biblical sexuality is intended to be. A must-read." - Rachael Denhollander
What if you're NOT the problem with your sex life?
What if the messages that you've been taught have messed things up--and what if there's a way to escape these toxic teachings?
It's time for a Great Sex Rescue.
Things Mentioned in This Podcast:
- The Great Sex Rescue! You can still pre-order and get the bonuses!
- Andrew Bauman and his book The Sexually Healthy Man
Anything stand out to you in the podcast today? The 72 hour rule? What makes sex great? Sexualizing your kids? Let’s talk in the comments!
My copy of The Great Sex Rescue arrived earlier this week! (A bit early I guess, but, hey, I’m not complaining!) I am thrilled to start digging into it!
Yay! Hope you love it!
Commenting anonymous this time… I think that when we start assigning sexuality to children, if kids are sexual, then it’s just a short step to justifying abuse and children inviting it through their actions.
When I displayed concerning sexual behavior in primary school, the only thing that happened was telling me that was inappropriate and I should stop. Actually, when I started touching my privates (not masturbating afaik), their go-to sentence was “go wash properly!”. I was told to not be too familiar with men that we didn’t know well. It was my fault. I was misbehaving. It was my “sexuality” (but really coping behavior from abuse and grooming) that was to be brought under control.
16 years later, I am finally seeking therapy and trying to uncover what happened.
It really should be a red flag. Kids are curious, yes, but to assign sexual motives? That’s just not appropriate with child development/psychosexual development. And when we get this wrong–we really do justify abuse. Seriously, if NAMBLA could quote from our Christian books to use as a recruiting tool–then we’ve done something terribly wrong. And I do think that these quotes (and a worse one I found since we recorded this) could be used for that purpose.
> > There is nothing magical about hour 72
Hmmmm, there’s a “rule of 72” in the accounting field. It’s barely possible that this is where it came from, or it could be just a coincidence.
Sheila/Becca – a couple of months ago my wife and I found ourselves in some quite deep, tense and even Argumentative at times conversations about our marriage. At one certain point my wife said the most simplest profound statement. She said and I quote “the state of your relationship in your marriage is the state of your sex life”. While I knew that, no one ever said that to me in that way. Not even here. Today your language was the closest to that statement…your statement was “A good marriage will lead to a good sex life!” Amen ladies and thank you!
So cool, Phil!
The major books pound the message that men have a need women can’t understand, that men need sex the way women need romance/talking.
Let’s assume all that’s true. Then why do these books never pound on husbands to give their wives romance and talking the way they pound on wives to give their husbands unlimited, on-demand sex? Why are all the books telling women what women need to do and ignoring the corresponding part of the authors’ own thesis about what men need to do?
Because even though these authors (probably) never say it explicitly, these books are targeted at women. If they were targeted at both husbands and wives, there would be equal focus on calling men out for their failure to meet their wives’ needs.
I feel betrayed. By our first anniversary, I was feeling deep discouragement about my marriage and some serious division from my caring, kind, and giving husband. I didn’t understand what was going wrong, and it felt too personal to talk to anyone about. So I turned to these popular books for help. I was already trying so hard to be a submissive, obedient wife, so I kept my mouth shut and never tried to explain to my husband what I was feeling. The distance. The discontinuity. The lack of relational and emotional engagement. Because bringing up issues would imply I was disrespecting him. Would imply I was trying to teach him.
So these books focus on Scripture in such a way that they leave out half the equation. First Corinthians 7 gives husbands certain rights and privileges, yes, but those same rights and privileges also belong, in equal and exactly corresponding measure, to the wives. These books skip right over that bit (or at least minimize it). What’s their justification in doing so? Why don’t these books talk about what wives need?
Because they’re addressed, subconsciously, to women.
You mentioned Matthew 11. I don’t think I’ve ever felt that burden to be light and that yoke to be easy to bear. Never. I was doing everything I could, and the burden just got heavier. And not only was I being a subpar wife. These books are also heavily implying I’m being disobedient to God. Me. When I’m not the one distorting Scripture for, conveniently, men’s own ends. The wives’ only concern is to spread ’em and act sexy (as I think Jane Eyre once commented here).
I’m mad. Mad as hell. Pissed off. (Sheila, feel free to moderate the language.) I have no idea how long it will take me to process out all the entanglements that these books have spread deep in my brain and especially my spirit. But my husband is deeply concerned about me, about my mental and emotional health, and yes, hallelujah, my sexual pleasure! I look forward to your new book, and I especially look forward to burning in the near future these horrible books that you reviewed in it. 😉 😛
I get it, Jo. I’ve been so mad this last year, too, when I really looked at what all these books are saying. I hope you find our new book really freeing! So many people are saying that it’s really healing, and I pray that God will use it that way in your marriage. And if you’re really struggling right now, take some time off and do some self-care and some things you love as well!
Thanks, Sheila, I’m so looking forward to it for ideas and methods for general healing, as the sexual part of our relationship has taken off enormously in the last few months because your posts have finally given me the language I need to express what’s been going on! I’ve broken down just sobbing and bawling several times in the last few weeks, apologizing over and over to my husband for allowing these BS books to rob us of so much in the thirty-two years of our marriage. He felt it too, but neither of us really had the insight into understanding what was wrong and what we could do to fix it.
Because, according to these books, we were already doing what we were “supposed” to be doing, me being the dutiful, submitting wife and he being the respected head. What was wrong with us that the prescribed treatment wasn’t working??? Never occurred to us that maybe, just maybe, the prescription was the problem. 🙄
Here’s hoping it all gets fixed in a lot less time than it took to do this damage. Can I sue these authors for the pain and suffering they inflicted???? 😛 😛 😛
It kills me that my husband actually had/has a healthy sexuality and view of sexuality, but I thought he was sinful and had problems because I believed these evangelical toxic teachings! So glad I have straightened out, now, and wow, I went from fearing him/anger to being set free and sex is awesome!
There were several things that Andrew Bauman said on the pod today that resonated with me (I have to get the Sexually Healthy Man now). I wanted to write and share my testimony in the hopes of speaking to the heart of the man I was when I first came across your blog many years ago.
Here goes. My wife and I were extremely physical before we got married, we couldn’t keep our hands off each other. We got married, started grad school, and everything changed. Suddenly, I was being rejected all the time. I responded to that rejection with pressure (fueled by toxic evangelical teachings) and a poor attitude. I made a bad problem much worse. The considerable gap between my felt need and my wife’s response became a defining characteristic of my life.
I didn’t find your blog initially with the purest of intentions. I found your blog with, at best, hope God could change my wife’s heart. More realistically, I wanted validation that I wasn’t a selfish, self-centered monster for wanting to have mutually satisfying sex with my wife once a week. I tried so many things for so long, but I was always outcome-driven. When the counseling, recommendations, behavior changes, etc. didn’t result in more sex or less rejection, I abandoned them. (Note: I was the one to determine that I gave them a sufficient amount of time, I am not saying they won’t work for you. The bigger issue is the outcome focus and that I wasn’t changing for myself.) I prayed for so long and so incessantly for ..anything that would end my suffering. Somewhere along the way God revealed to me the reasons why I couldn’t let my unmet sexual needs go (ie beyond a way of feeling loved, connected to my wife, and a delightful physical release):
1) I defined my manhood by sex,
2) It was the only way I felt desired,
3) sex was the only way I felt connected to God. (1/2)
(2/2) The funny thing about prayer, and perhaps the most important thing about prayer, is how YOU change In the process of prayer. Slowly, God began to dismantle the underpinning beliefs and provide for me, but not in the way I asked or expected:
1) There is no greater man than Jesus Christ and if He is the example of the manhood I aspire to, clearly sex has nothing to do with being a man. I am a man because of the way I sacrifice and serve others.
2) I had a problematic relationship with food and frequently ate my feelings. I was seeking my wife to desire me when I didn’t even desire myself. I valued myself enough to prioritize my selfcare (ultimately I lost >60 lbs and >11% body fat) to where I now genuinely desire myself and know that I Am desirable without any external validation.
3) Sex remains an easy way for me to feel God’s presence, but it’s not the only way. Through a lot of trial and error, I discovered that when I workout extremely hard, to the point that there is nothing left in the tank and my heart rate is redlining, the recovery breath in the moments afterwards provides me the stillness to focus and feel God’s presence. He is available to me anytime and all my needs are met in Him.
I like to think that our marriage is now characterized by a little more gratitude, grace, patience, joy, peace, and love. However, what I want to be perfectly clear is that my marriage is not characterized by more sex, and that is ok. Let me repeat that, it is ok that my transformation did NOT result in more sex and that that may never happen for me. Most of the success stories here end with more physical intimacy and if you’re seeking an outcome you can’t control, you may never be satisfied. I live content with the expectation that I have already had sex for the last time in my life, any expectation beyond that leads to counting, calendar watching, and devastating disappointment. Life is so much more than sex and my life is no longer characterized by unmet need. I pray that for you too. Cast your cares on Him, He cares for you.
Thank you to everyone here for constantly pointing us to Jesus in our struggles.
Honestly I’m just mostly sad, with anger following behind. I’ve been married for almost 26 years and the crap I have believed and had drilled into me as a young girl has really been brought to light over the past 5 years, with this book bringing it all together. I honestly had no idea where and why and how come until now. I weep for myself who never got the chance to just be me and to be all God made me to be. And for the early years of marriage that could’ve been so so much better.
I get it, Rachel. I feel largely the same way. I weep for young Sheila. But these years have been lovely, too. There is healing.
And I reassure myself that we can do better for the next generation by drowning out the voices that have done harm.
Thank you for calling out the comment from “Through a Man’s Eyes”. I remember taking a look at that book once in the bookstore and was horrified by much that was in it, but especially about the comments of the little boys noticing women.
I have another opinion about why these boys may say these things – I wonder if these ideas are being planted by their fathers or other men in their life. I say this because I know of a man who encouraged his son to check out the models at lingerie stores. I think his motive was to make sure he didn’t end up gay, so get the attraction going early. This man is a good guy in other ways so I don’t want to make too much of it. However, it is interesting. A lot of evangelical males seem more comfortable with their sons having lust issues (every man’s battle after all!) than being same-sex attracted, even if they choose not to act on that attraction. I find that troubling. It seems like Christian men feel that they will lose their man card if they aren’t struggling with lust.
Yes, I find it difficult to think that that conversation with the 4-year-old happened just as she said, out of the blue. I think it’s likely that something like what you said happened, or that he said something innocent that she read into because she was assuming little boys are like this, or the story just got embellished over time (as a speaker, I know I’ve embellished stories for effect, and sometimes it can be hard to remember what actually happened after you’ve told the story hundreds of times).
And one other comment – if it is a biological reality that men and boys cannot help lust when exposed to female body parts and skimpy clothing etc. then why do they not have this reaction to their mother or sisters? Surely they see them in states of less dress at times, especially when young? But even these creepy books don’t warn of that. The reality is that people typically don’t sexualize these relationships (I’m aware, of course, that sometimes incest does occur) and so they don’t think of these females that way. Which knocks down the whole theory that God made men this way and supports your ideas that the solution is to see women as people and in the church, as Paul says, as mothers and sisters.
Yes! Also, my husband is a physician who sees people in various states of undress all day. If we assume men can’t help it, well, that’s problematic for his profession, isn’t it?
Wait what?
Isn’t that normal for a 9 year old?
This is worrying.
I was sexual very early on in my life.
Almost all my early child memories are sexual. At 8-9 years old I found an erotic book which I now realize probably my fathers (pre-internet days). I found it and hid it and started to look at the women and started to hump the book.
I have sadly been hyper sexual since I was a kid. Had bad thoughts about what I wanted to do to girls in my age. Was that not normal?
I have always suspected that someone did something sexual to me. I was hooked on porn very early (internet became popular at homes when I was 10-11 years old) with a big obsession around analsex.
I have never liked to make excuses for my sin so I have thought about me being sexually abused but since I don’t remember anything I just assumed that this was my sin to deal with because of my sinful nature.
So you mean that it’s not normal at that age?
So something must have happened that made me so sexual? But what?
I can’t suspect anyone.
How important is it to deal with that to be free from hypersexuality?
Thank you for this if this is true then I have something to deal with but O don’t know how.
Hello, Anon.
It’s Keith here.
Around the start of puberty (age 9 in boys) it is normal to have a variety of new, sexual feelings. Boys can find this confusing and they often don’t know how to process them, especially if they have grown up with distorted views about sexuality (for example, that sex is a bad or dirty thing or if they were exposed to pornography). That is why it is important for parents to have, open, non-weird discussions with their children so they can learn to process all this in a healthy way.
(Note that these discussions should be happening throughout the child’s life at a developmentally appropriate level not suddenly dumped on them as one talk!)
If we demonize sexuality itself, I worry we can create situations where people–having been told they need to repress their sexuality–have their sexuality come out in unhealthy ways. Personally, I think that is often what has happened in the evangelical church and is why so many men say they struggle with lust: because they have no idea of the difference between lust and normal male sexual drive.
On the other hand, we need to teach children that while these urges and drives are normal, they (like other bodily urges) are under your control. Having these feelings is not bad, what is important is how you handle them.
Given what you are dealing with overall, I would recommend you see a licensed counselor if you are not already. I think your specific questions would be best addressed in that environment rather than this one.
I wonder how an unbeliever or a seeker may feel when (s)he comes to one of our evangelical churches and hears about the 72 hour rule and other weird stuff.
I know! Really.
My favorite part of this is where you directly connected the word “pedophilia” to Shaunti’s observations of her own child. I really appreciate this baseless attack on a woman who dared to comment on visual triggers/biological responses in her son, albeit inevitable ones. I used to think sexualizing children held more significance in the realms of the countless fathers with an aggressive entitlement to protecting their daughter’s virginity. Or even the topic of schools forcing young girls to dress specifically so as not to distract the boys in their class with their bodies. You were right to make such damaging claims, as it is clear that your judgement skills couldn’t possibly have faults if you had the confidence to throw “pedophilia” into the mix.
I’m just going to quote again from the 4-year-old:
This is implying arousal at the sight of a near naked adult woman’s body when he is 4. This is sexualizing children. This is not normal, and a story like this would likely raise some concern in a pediatrician’s office and inspire some more questioning.
I’ll also point to this episode in her book Through a Man’s Eyes, which we hadn’t noticed at the point we did the podcast:
In both cases, she is referring to toddler boys experiencing arousal at looking at naked women. This is not normal sexual development. It is totally normal to be curious; to play doctor; to touch one’s genitals; to have an erection. It is not normal for that arousal to be paired with sexual imagery like this. If this was talked about in a pediatrician’s office, this would raise some concern.
I think it’s vitally important that when we’re talking about very small children especially that we do not ascribe sexual motives to them. This is what pedophiles argue–that child sexual abuse isn’t bad because kids are sexual. We should not be making similar arguments to pedophiles. And I also want to point out that many parents reading these accounts may then believe it’s normal for children to behave in sexual ways. Then, if their kids do, they may not notice that this is a red flag that someone may have harmed their kids. We need to be able to identify red flags in order to protect children.
As for fathers and virginity balls, etc., I totally agree that this is weird and creepy and sexualizing and wrong, but I have also written at length on it already and had podcasts on it. But, yes, purity culture did great harm, and I’ve talked about that quite a bit on the blog as well.
I should also say: It’s unfortunate that the story of the 4-year-old is her son. I’m not trying to imply that anything happened to him; only that the story is very, very strange.
When I speak, I tell lots of stories of my girls when they were toddlers (nothing sexual though), and sometimes, when you’ve told the same story many times, it gets embellished to make a point. I wonder if that’s what’s happening here. Alternatively, sometimes we’re so ready to believe that our kids are one way that we look for things that confirm it to us, and we may read things in that aren’t there.
I have no idea what happened, and it isn’t for me to say. I’m just saying that we shouldn’t be promoting the idea that children have adult sexual reactions to the adult form (becoming sexually aroused at seeing an adult’s body). I wish she hadn’t used her son to prove the point, but she did, and that’s too bad. But this is not how children develop sexually, and it’s vitally important that we understand that in order to enhance child protection.
I also want to add, you said this: “I used to think sexualizing children held more significance in the realms of the countless fathers with an aggressive entitlement to protecting their daughter’s virginity. Or even the topic of schools forcing young girls to dress specifically so as not to distract the boys in their class with their bodies.”
This thinking right here, that we are silly for being concerned about male sexual abuse victims, is one of the reasons why so many cases of child sexual abuse of boys goes unnoticed. Boys aren’t victims, right? Only girls are! (Complete sarcasm.)
On this site, we care about both male and female victims of sexual abuse and do not downplay or minimize boys’ abuse. What Shaunti wrote may cause parents whose young boys start showing classic signs of child sexual abuse (having sexual behaviours and using sexual language in the ways she uses as examples on her blog we quoted and in Through a Man’s Eyes) to simply brush off the warning signs in the name of the “male brain.” Boys are abuse victims, too, and this kind of thinking, that they’re sexually charged creatures as young as 3, is exactly how their abusers rationalize their abhorrent, evil and wicked behaviour of children.
So, have you called James Dobson? I know you sent a letter to Focus on the Family re: Respect and Love. I appreciate all the effort you invested to discover that James Dobson the source of the 72 hour myth. Very likely all those other male authors just accepted his information because it sounded good ( that’s good, huh, I like to have sex that often and I like you telling my wife that it is her responsibility ) And they didn’t bother to research the facts themselves.
Dr. Dobson is still alive and well. How would he respond now to hearing of the results of false information he started disseminating almost 50 years ago? Maybe he needs a chance to apologize.