Should women get to have a say in when they have sex?
I would think that the answer to this is pretty obvious.
I don’t have time for a long post today, but I want to talk about a social media trend that’s been occurring, I think because of my obligation sex series.
Whenever I write something about obligation sex, there is a certain blogger/influencer who I don’t like to name who posts something the exact opposite.
Here, for instance, is a recent post:
Let’s break down what she’s saying about obligation sex:
Women’s feelings must not play a role in whether or not the couple has sex.
So, then, the couple has sex according to the man’s feelings.
What she’s arguing is not actually about sex. What she’s saying is this:
Men’s feelings matter, and women’s feelings don’t.
It’s that simple.
Many influencers are following her lead.
I’ve been tagged in I don’t know how many Instagram posts and reels this week of young, female, “biblical wifehood” accounts sharing the same message about obligation sex. You need to have it. It’s a gift for your husband. It makes him feel strong. It helps him withstand temptation.
What they’re not mentioning is coercion; the orgasm gap; porn use; emotional connection; and so much more.
I started this conversation, but there are many on the other side who are trying to undo it.
So who is this initial influencer?
I’m actually not going to name her. Many of you know who she is, but I’d ask that you not mention her name/handle in the comments.
Here’s the thing: She thrives on controversy. Her reach is huge because so many people check out her page because she’s so outrageous.
But any time you react or comment, you make Facebook and Instagram think, “oh, this is a super engaging post”, so they show it to more people.
I think this is a complicated issue, because I have had so many people actually find me because someone else mentioned me in her comments, or mentioned The Great Sex Rescue. There can be a place for leaving good comments. But I think once someone has already left a great comment, it’s better to like that comment and move on than to leave another one yourself. Let’s cut down the engagement as much as we can.
The same applies to these young wife influencer channels. When we engage, we affect the algorithm which will send it to more people.
My advice? Leave a comment if there isn’t a good one there expressing how obligation sex causes sexual pain and lowers orgasm rates, and how the orgasm gap is real and this isn’t okay. Leave a link to my book or a mention of my book.
But then unfollow the account or mute the account so you don’t see anything else, and the reach goes down.
We’re making a lot of progress with people understanding that obligation sex is bad.
It’s actually been heartening to see on so many of these young wives’ accounts people calling them out with really well-thought-out arguments.
But these accounts are growing. So let’s starve them as much as we can–while keeping to spread the correct message about sex being mutual, intimate, and pleasurable for both!
What do you think? Have you seen this trend growing on social media? Let me know in the comments!
The Obligation Sex Series
- 10 Things to Know about Obligation Sex
- Why Obligation Sex Destroys Libido (and how it affects us long-term)
- Are Obligation Sex and Marital Rape the Same Thing?
- A Way Forward to Recovery from Obligation Sex
- Why Obligation Sex Can Make Sex Feel Disgusting
- You Don't Need to Consent to Being Used (what to do when your husband insists on obligation sex)
- How Higher Drive Spouses Can Avoid Giving the Obligation Sex Message
- 10 Ways Men Can Initiate Sex Without Pressuring Her
- The Obligation Sex podcast
Previous Posts on Obligation Sex
- Can We Honor our Bodies' Rhythms?
- Does 1 Corinthians 7 Mean that Women Have No Sexual Autonomy?
- What Happens When Men Believe the Obligation Sex Message?
Previous Podcasts on Obligation Sex
- New Research on the effects of Obligation Sex
- The Myth of the Magic Penis
- Marital Rape, Consent, and the Problems with Obligation Sex
Plus please see our Great Sex Rescue Toolkit for handy downloads about the effects of obligation sex that you can give to your pastor, counselor, small group leader--anyone who teaches it!
And see chapters 9 and 10 in The Great Sex Rescue for all our charts, stats, and commentary!
You and Keith had some very tough times early in your marriage. You began your work after a lot of that had passed.
I would bet substantial sums of money that these young trad wife influencers have had it easy so far, or that they sweep every problem under the rug. Their marriages are new enough (or imaginary enough, in the case of one particularly noxious anti-woman female influencer) that they haven’t felt the full effects of their nonsense.
Their “marriage advice” is “just be more like me!”
Perhaps some of them are the obligation sex equivalent of the “complementarian” couples who live in egalitarian ways. They do one thing but preach another. Maybe some of them have a higher libido than their husbands do, but they don’t feel comfortable expressing that. So it comes out in “I have sex whenever my husband wants it.”
Either way, it’s pretty clear that they think they are being edgy by saying inflammatory things that have caused people untold amount of heartache.
Jane Eyre, I was thinking the exact same thing. My first question for these women would be, “And how long have you been practicing this model of marriage?” They probably haven’t scratched the surface yet and have no idea what it’s doing to their bodies.
Plus, they are getting attention and making money from their pages. It always comes back to power and/or money.
“They probably haven’t scratched the surface yet and have no idea what it’s doing to their bodies”
I don’t know who this influencer is (not on socials, thankfully). Maybe I’m reading too much into a post that is probably just intended to poke some bears, but someone who actually thinks like this may not be able to tell if their health is being compromised. In my experience, this kind of “scripture over feelings” rhetoric goes along with a very low view of bodies and emotions, especially women’s. People get trained to dissociate and think it’s spiritual.
absolutely!
this was me
That was me too
We know that sometimes a pastor who goes on a lot about the sin of drinking, has a drinking problem. Or the husband who is suspicious of where his wife has been, is the one having an affair. When young wives go on this way, I think often she is not wanting to admit that something is very wrong with her marriage, and she’s desperately trying to convince herself and the world that she has the power to fix this. It’s a very scary thing to discover that you’ve married someone who doesn’t really care about you.
After all, what is so unscriptural about “do unto others as you would want them to do to you”?
It was only approaching my 20th year of marriage that my husband and I really hit some hard stuff!! Not that we didn’t have to work through some tough stuff adjusting to living together and all that early on as well as when we had babies and small children. Now we have teens and are unraveling the damage that was lurking far beneath the surface. The skinned knees have been real. It’s like before we only dealt with occasional symptoms; but man digging out the root is very very different. Oh to be naively happy with our easy marriage again!
Its like with homeschooling; I’m not looking for mentorship from moms of early elementary children when mine are in middle. I need to hear from those who’ve gone before me and graduated a few kids.
Its a shame that being more technologically savvy can get you engagement beyond your wisdom! Sometimes it’s just more fun to see the pretty young person’s post with the trendy catchy phrases than the woman with wisdom, experience and data to back up their words. It reminds me of these fitness and “nutrition” influencers actually.
I don’t use social media but what I have noticed (hearing from others) is that this particular blogger, and others of a simiilar ilk, have blocked you or others who have posted well-thought out arguments. Some of them delete comments from those who are actually healthy and trying to point others to a healthier way.
What’s ironic to me is if you present them with the iron-sharpening iron scripture, many of them will tell you that isn’t a wife’s job and to leave that up to the men in his life because that is you trying to control him, etc. Do they not see 1. how unbiblical they are, and 2. the absolute control-freak tendencies they themselves have? No, they do not. Even certain comments here lately from some have, to me, been absurd in their content, length, repetition, and absolute refusal to absorb or receive any teaching. Yet you have allowed them through because you are not afraid of Truth being exposed.
I reread Ketih’s Danvers Statement post and what struck me was him pointing out that scripture says we are not to add to nor take away from the scriptures. Adding an English language spin on it (thanks, King James), and refusing to teach the mutual submission part both take away from scripture. And they frequently add to scripture by asserting it isn’t a woman’s place to sharpen iron when it’s a husband. Examples abound.
I’m sorry for these women- that they are so sold into being less in their marriages that they must promote themselves and have influence on others in order to gain back their feelings of worth. My marriage is far from what it should be and we have lots to work through for years to come, but the idea of dragging other women down into the pit I was in is reprehensible to me. I really hope these women begin to see Truth for what it is though I’m not holding my breath.
During my journey in seeking out support and answers for a sexless marriage over the years, I found a similarly disheartening trend towards some pretty terrible messaging. Many or most of the spaces dedicated to providing support or advice for higher libido spouses in sexless marriages were, and I’ll be less polite here, absolutely toxic cesspits of bitter entitlement rife with every argument for obligation sex you could imagine. This was, of course, especially true the more male-dominated the space was.
So, I’ve continually appreciated your blog as a rare example of a resource that’s:
A). Christian
B). Directly addresses sex in marriage.
C). Directly confronts and calls out toxic teaching on entitlement, obligation and coercion.
If only that wasn’t so rare! Here’s hoping it can become more common, even out there in the wild-west of the engagement-seeking social media age.
A semi-random aside: Interestingly, one of the best (and maybe only non-toxic) spaces I found specifically dedicated to supporting higher libido spouses in sexless relationships was the Partners and Spouses of Asexuals forum over at AVEN (Asexual Visibility and Education Network)
It was probably the only such space I’ve ever encountered that had a firm stance against the sort of common, gross, obligation centric advice that pervades most of the others. I wonder what that says about our culture and it’s views on sex and marriage? 🤔
TJ, kudos to you for seeking out these resources and loving your spouse in so many ways.
Evangelicals are so opposed to anything in the realm of LGBTQIA+, and yet, there are plenty of non-cis/non-hetero people who are evangelical and who end up in “traditional” marriages.
Asexuality, like other forms of sexuality, is not necessarily caused by trauma. (Separate issue from the people who do not want sex because of trauma.) It can be the way someone is wired, and, if so, trying to “cure” them of it is about on par with “curing” someone of being gay.
Discovering that you or your spouse is LGBTQIA+ when you/they entered the relationship believing you were both cis and hetero is a challenge, but I think that is more prevalent than we want to admit within the evangelical community, where people believe they have to “pass” as straight, even if they are not.
My experience is the evangelical community over-emphasizes sexual attraction in the selection of a marriage partner, so that if/when that piece changes for whatever reason, and sex is no longer center stage, the marriage unravels. I think we should be selecting marriage partners for reasons beyond wanting to legitimize our libido. I think evangelicals put way too much emphasis on Paul’s “marry or burn” suggestion in 1 Cor 7:9.
I should clarify, that my wife doesn’t actually self-identity as Ace. I came across AVEN years ago while looking for answers, and a lot of the stories on their partner support forums really resonated with my experiences.
I appreciated that most of their advice centered around coping strategies, self-improvement and how to be an actual loving partner in the face of vast libido differences. Rather than the typical entitled garbage you’d find in most other spaces. And any obligation style messages towards the less-sexual partner were quickly confronted and shot down.
So I appreciated the perspective there, even though neither of us actually identify as Ace.
I know exactly who you mean, and I try to avoid reading her stuff because it is so infuriatingly silly – although there is a certain horrible fascination in seeing just how illogical her arguments are. I’ve seen so many articles where she twists and misuses Scripture and uses circular reasoning to ‘prove’ she is right – sadly, she is providing perfect ammunition for all the guys who believe women should stay home cooking and cleaning because they are incapable of using their minds, because she fulfils all the stereotypes for them! Although there is a certain irony in seeing how many men of the ‘women can’t argue logically and therefore shouldn’t teach’ persuasion will approvingly share and comment on her illogical teaching!
I never comment or follow on her social media or on similar pages because I don’t want to raise awareness of this kind of garbage among my friends. If a friend shares something, then I will comment on their personal post, but unfortunately, I usually find that by the time someone has got to the stage of sharing this kind of message, they are beyond reach – any attempt to question just results in me being branded as ‘sinful’ for disagreeing with them.
“a certain horrible fascination…” Kinda like a little bird watching a snake? 😉
Yeah, I get that!
Ladies, step right up, have we got a deal for you!
You’ve been a fully functioning adult for several years, having gotten through college or establishing a career, doing all the things.
What you’re missing out on is handing over your entire identity, your entire self, with all its thoughts ideas, opinions, desires, wants, and needs to this nifty arrangement we call marriage.
Come get married, so you can slowly, day by day, erase yourself to the point of essentially being non-existent as a living, breathing human being and instead you become the mere shadow of another human being, what we call a husband. In fact, you will have less value in your husband’s eyes than his actual shadow will have!
No matter your experiences, training, or research findings, your husband will actually be omniscient and able to make 100 percent perfect decisions despite his lack of knowledge, experience, training, or innate ability. And even when you know he’s demonstrably, factually wrong, it won’t matter a bit, because by the rules, you’ll still have to be sweetly obliging about giving up what your untrustworthy heart may say. (His heart is always inherently trustworthy, because of course.)
This limited-time offer (which lasts until post-pregnancy or post-fertility, whichever occurs first) has the low, low cost of your very soul! But that’s not a huge price to pay, since you, as a woman, are not worth very much anyway, certainly not in the eyes of the society around you and especially not in the eyes of the church, or even God.
Hurry, because as pointed out above, this offer won’t last long!
“Come get married, so you can slowly, day by day, erase yourself to the point of essentially being non-existent as a living, breathing human being and instead you become the mere shadow of another human being, what we call a husband. In fact, you will have less value in your husband’s eyes than his actual shadow will have!”
This…filth…is the stuff that makes me very cautious of most marriage books these days. I’m not Jesus (and my fiance knows this all too well), so why should she have to mold herself to be like me once we marry? I’m not innately holier than she is (in fact I envy her simpler faith that is unburdened by the million philosophies I’m trying to contend with daily). Why can’t we just sharpen each other…like, IDK, every Christian is supposed to do to one another?
Sheila, I’m a scientist with nearly 20 years in the field, I am also a wife and mother. I have never experienced the obligation sex you speak of so often. One of the biggest reasons I was drawn to what you write, as a scientist, is that you present evidence-based points, not just your personal opinion. I find your explanation of relevant scripture to be sound as well. I think some of the push-back may be because people literally didn’t read past the title of the post itself. They see a title along the lines of “sex shouldn’t be an obligation for wives” and they don’t read further; they take it to mean you are telling women that they are free to deprive their husbands sexually (which you are not saying, of course). The thing is, there is an obligation element to many aspects of marriage, sex being one of them, in the sense that it is a reasonable expectation to want to have meaningful and frequent sexual intimacy with your spouse. It’s cruel to just cut your spouse off. I follow several blogs similar to yours, and there are so many comments from both men and women who have dealt with sexual rejection from their spouse, and the heartbreak and pain that resulted. Of course, you argue that if sex isn’t happening, there’s a reason, and the couple should get to the bottom of that reason. I think that’s the nuance so many are missing when they push back on your messages. But I’m glad to have your intelligent and thoughtful perspective shared, and I think your ministry is great.
Even if they are not reading past the title, I think it shows they have a problematic view of sex. Why would any wife want to stop having sex with her husband if sex with her husband was good and enjoyable for her too? If a person’s initial reaction to hearing ‘sex shouldn’t be an obligation for wives’ is to think ‘but wives will never have sex if they’re not obliged to’, then that shows they have a really, really low view of how enjoyable sex is (or should be) for women.
It’s like the example of cake that Sheila used in her last podcast. If you like cake, then you are going to want to keep eating it, and if someone says ‘you shouldn’t feel obliged to eat cake’ you are still going to eat it – because you like it! If someone said “women should not be obliged to eat cake when they don’t want it” I bet very few people would have the initial reaction of “oh no! Women will never eat cake ever again!” Yet when we say the same thing about sex, this is the first response for so many.
Exactly. The reason many of us have “cut our spouses off” from sex is because it is less awful to deny one of the most basic human desires than it is to continue engaging in one-sided, soul destroying intercourse.
Think of how revolting, rotted, and maggot ridden that cake must be to say “I never want to even be offered a slice of cake again in my life.”
I wish people understood this. The way people talk (like our email writer in yesterday’s podcast) makes it sound like they think women must be crazy–“almost all women trick men into marriage and then they immediately give up on sex because they’re just selfish!”
They think women are crazy because they try to make us believe a lot of things that contradict reality. Start with faulty premises, shut down any dissent or questioning as heretical, throw people out of their social circles and threaten them with damnation if they continue to stand up for reality, and yes, the result is going to be a bit nutty.
But it’s another form of “telling on yourself.” “All the women around me are crazy!” What’s the common denominator, champ?
I’ve never met an abuser who didn’t complain that his ex was crazy. It’s a classic, red flag.
Exactly! It shows that they fundamentally believe that women don’t enjoy sex, which says a lot about their own sex lives. I know I’m not supposed to comment on people’s personal lives, but the blogger we’re talking about has even said publicly that she doesn’t enjoy sex, she does it regardless, and this makes it even more special.
The line between obligation sex and rape is so fine it’s barely there. I would argue it’s not, but I am feeling generous. If you are having sex because you are coerced by a sense of religious duty, you’re being raped spiritually and physically. There is no difference between a rapist raping a woman because he deserved to, and a husband demanding obligation sex. None. Even if the wife “consents”
And certainly the effects of the body are the same, even if it doesn’t rise to the legal definition of rape. Our bodies can still experience it as trauma.
> > Men’s feelings matter, and women’s feelings don’t.
This is exactly what she’s saying, and it can go far beyond sex. What do you spend your money on? What restaurants/movies/etc do you go to? What people do you spend time with? This belief goes to a place where the woman doesn’t count at all.
Yep.
> > If a person’s initial reaction to hearing ‘sex shouldn’t be an obligation for wives’ is to think ‘but wives will never have sex
> > if they’re not obliged to’, then that shows they have a really, really low view of how enjoyable sex is (or should be) for women.
This has been talked about, too. Often, people with that belief system say that women aren’t supposed to like, enjoy or want sex at all, even though their primary reason for existence is to sexually satisfy their husbands. In fact, on other sites, I’ve heard people say that if a woman enjoys sex, then she’s acting in an ungodly way for a woman.
No surprise really. The Bible makes it clear that sex is meant to be part of marriage, and if sex is also meant to be enjoyable for the wife, that means the husband needs to put some effort in to making it good for her. Whereas if he can claim ‘women aren’t meant to enjoy sex but sex is meant to be part of marriage’, then he can just carry on doing what’s good for him without having to care how it’s making her feel ‘because it’s not meant to feel good for her anyway’.
(Presumably, these guys assume Song of Solomon isn’t really meant to be in the Bible?!)
The bottom line is if one chooses to interpret 1 Cor 7 3:5 in the manner as written without considering the entire chapter and without including The Spirit of Christ they have missed the point. I really can’t picture Jesus saying to a woman – your body does not belong to you and regardless of how you feel you should ALWAYS have sex with your husband no matter what because that would destroy your marriage. SERIOUSLY?
I know. It’s like, do they know Jesus at all?
I’ve been thinking about if there might be a link between the obligation sex message and the fact that some/many Christians see most of their Christian activities as commands/obligations. Like the admonition to give and “God loves a cheerful giver”… so if you’re not actually cheerful about it, you do it anyway and pretend to be cheerful, because otherwise you’re not pleasing God. I feel like the message I absorbed growing up was that Christians are to be as emptied of themselves, their human desires and individual personalities as possible, and the secret sauce was that you’d get so close to God that you’d be peaceful and joyful even if the average person would be totally miserable under the circumstances.
“I feel like the message I absorbed … was that Christians are to be as emptied of themselves, their human desires and individual personalities as possible, and the secret sauce was that you’d get so close to God that you’d be peaceful and joyful even if the average person would be totally miserable under the circumstances.“
ABSOLUTELY – so thankful that you vocalized my experience!
Bare Marriage has been one of the most healing places that I have found in the past year – it, plus Rebecca Davis, Leslie Vernick, and Mark DeJesus have saved my life! mind, heart, soul, & body!!!!!🎉
ETERNALLY THANKFUL!!!!!
One trend I’ve been seeing on Facebook is Christians I know posting the umbrella of authority as though this is scriptural and if you believe and act this way, you are holy. I want to cringe every time I see it and I’m tempted to comment on it tactfully, but I’m just too busy to cause an argument on social media. Ten years ago, I would have probably posted something similar to that because I wanted other Christians I knew to think I was godly and followed all the right rules.
I think a lot of Christians think it’s taboo for women to like sex. When I was a teenager, if a girl admitted that she liked sex, people would consider her a slut. But it was totally normal for guys to like sex. That meant they were manly. So, this way of thinking remains in church circles. Years ago, I saw a Mormon produced movie called Charlie about a young wife who had a free spirited personality. In a women’s Bible study, the teacher asked the women things they enjoyed doing for fun. Charlie said she enjoyed making love with her husband and the room went silent. I don’t remember the entire movie, but that scene left an impression on me.
The blogger who shall not be named has compared having sex with your husband as something you have to do like cleaning the toilet. She said something like, “You may not feel like doing it but you should just like cleaning a toilet. It’s something that has to get done. He goes to work everyday even if he doesn’t feel like it.” I saw clips of her video through another YouTube channel that likes to profile fundies like her.
Wow, having intercourse with your husband is like cleaning the toilet. That’s a pretty crappy comparison to make! (My apologies for being crass- I couldn’t help myself.)
But for reals- what husband wants sex with his wife to be likened to cleaning a toilet? Do guys realize how sick they are if they are ok with having obligated sex comparable to cleaning a toilet?
I’m wondering if we could also encourage these women to promote an alternative, ACTUALLY BIBLICAL message. Because most of them genuinely THINK they’re helping women and families and glorifying God, as twisted as it that is. In a nutshell I think that message would be “mutual sex in marriage, where each person’s desires and needs matter equally, glorifies God. Sex is a gift to both women and men, and an entitlement for neither. Mutual love and mutual respect create a safe place for both spouses’ hearts.”
What’s sad is, not only are her comments sending a damaging message to wives, but this can easily be used as fodder for toxic husbands to use in an emotionally abusive way.
So the moral of the story is that hypocrisy (the only thing that Jesus railed against with hot anger and non-compromise) has been turned into the mark of a Christian wife’s VIRTUE?
*Don’t lie to your husband (unless he wants sex and you don’t – then you MUST lie, to keep him feeling manly and happy)
*Don’t bear false witness (unless it’s against yourself because your husband wants sex and you don’t – you MUST respond joyfully)
*Don’t murder (unless you’re injuring yourself through trauma because your husband wants coercive sex and you know you have to give it to him)
*Have no other Gods before me (unless you have to empty yourself entirely because your husband wants sex – and he is the manifestation of the will of God in your life)
*Don’t worship idols (but your husband is the manifestation of God in your life and you have to bow down and submit entirely if he wants to have sex)
*Jesus came to set the prisoner and captive free (but not women married to abusive men – he delights in watching them squirm in circles while demanding that they suffer in his name).
We could go on.
The Bible is a book of doublespeak for fundamentalist Christian women.
And fundamentalist guys seem perfectly happy to live with the hypocrisy if it guarantees them sexual priority. Actually KNOWING a wife is for the ardent “second blessing” kind of guys, but not essential to marriage.
Why can we not call this a phallic religion, where every husband is the high priest/deity of his own personal cult?
I’m not just stirring things up here. This was my lived experience. I was left literally having to make a choice between God and man because the lines were completely extinguished. Any resistance to or personal opinion that wasn’t my husbands was – quite literally “rebellion against God”.
There is a price to pay. You CANNOT serve two masters. And no amount of spiritualized hypocrisy makes up the difference.
This is an excellent comment! Thank you.
👆🏼this! yes!
I have been saying this same thing ever since my eyes, mind, & heart began opening last spring! “the church” is the biggest dispenser of doublespeak that I have ever encountered – we are told to be very cautious and fearful of what “the world” is feeding us through it’s propaganda, but we have our guards down when it comes to “the church” and it nearly killed me with its perversions of truth! I was ignorant, having not been raised in a christian home. I was hungry and needy. And for 30+ years I read & listened to fundamentalist, evangelical, patriarchal, dogmatic, complementarian, and even full-quiver teachings hoping to “get it right”. All my efforts bound & destroyed me and my family.
Thank you all for sharing from your experiences – it is such a great help!
Oh CAT, how I can relate to those statements! I too was ignorant and needy — I felt that if I just did things “differently” from the way I was raised that it would finally be OK, and this was “different” all right! But in the end it was all chains and thick cobwebs, horrible gross stuff. I am on my way to freedom, but it’s a heavy load to sort out. Hugs.
“Proverbs 26:20-22 TPT It takes fuel to have a fire— a fire dies down when you run out of fuel. So quarrels disappear when the gossip ends. Add fuel to the fire and the blaze goes on. So add an argumentative [person] to the mix, and you’ll keep strife alive.” Bible.com
What I love the most about all of you, Sheila, Rebecca, Joanna, Keith and everyone you interview or cross-follow, is how you live out the Gospel and ALL of the Bible, rather than camping on a few verses (as She Who Shall Not be Named does.)
That and how you continue to model basic logic, basic science, common sense, intelligence, integrity, emotional regulation, self discipline, respect for others, respect for self, humility, accountability…, you know, all that crazy, mature Christian stuff that seems so last century.
Love you guys and all that you’re doing!
When I read the post about women having power to determine when they will have sex based on their feelings… it made me think, “But when a man wants to have sex, isn’t his FEELING for wanting sex determining when they have sex (especially in those relationships where the woman was taught to never say no.) So it’s wrong for a woman to not want sex but it’s ok for a man TO want sex? Trust his feeling, not hers. Got it.
But this idea also gives free rein to men because they can treat their wife however they want and she doesn’t have the right to not feel like being intimate with him. Like, if you’re nice, respectful, loving, fun to be around, mature, etc. your wife would probably FEEL like having sex with you. Instead, (it seems to be implied) that no matter what, no matter how she is treated, if a woman doesn’t feel like having sex, she MUST. Her feelings don’t matter.
It’s just crazy how Christian (men) think women don’t like/want sex… and I guess, in MANY cases they’re right. Many women don’t like sex ANYMORE but they never question WHY. These authors/pastors obviously have wives that don’t like sex, their friends have the same issue, the people they counsel say the same thing so the conclusion: women don’t like sex. (And sex they know is probably just about their release involving no foreplay, lube and 30 seconds of PIV intercourse.) Yeah, wonder why she doesn’t want it.
To get a sense of culturally specific this issue is, read some medieval sermons on marriage and sex. Women were seen as sexually voracious, and it was up to the man to be the level headed one and not expend all his energy on his wives’ sexual demands. It was the 19th century “angel of the household” view of women, not scripture, that is on display in evangelical teachings. Without a historical perspective, they have fallen prey to what is essentially 19th century secular culture and dub it “scriptural” and “traditional”. That it puts men in the drivers’ seat can make one wonder if their lack of curiosity is intentional.
I sort of vaguely knew that at one point in history (has there has been more than one?), women were considered the “insatiable” sex.
But the way you wrote your comment reminded me immediately of one of the Screwtape letters, the one where he talks about how they constantly change what’s considered the most “fashionable” and desirable woman. It’s letter 20 for those who have it.
Your wording also reminded me of Lewis’s idea that Satan always sends errors in pairs of opposites. That’s at the end of chapter 6 in “Beyond Personality,” which is the last book in “Mere Christianity.” So maybe the pairs can cycle as well as arriving at the same time.
These arguments that women won’t want to have sex unless they’re obliged to are a version of legalism. Paul argues against that in Romans when he talks about grace vs works of the law. Basically he’s arguing against the idea that under grace people will just keep sinning since they don’t have to live under the law anymore. If women aren’t obliged to have sex they’re freed to have it with delight and joy, just as we’re freed to obey God that way under grace.