Is all obligation sex necessarily rape?
As we’ve been talking about obligation sex this month, starting with 10 things you need to know about obligation sex, and how obligation sex affects a woman’s body, there’s a conversation that keeps coming up on social media:
Why don’t you call obligation sex what it really is? Why don’t you call it rape?
I thought today it would be a good idea to go over what constitutes marital rape, then.
Not all obligation sex is rape–but obligation sex is the underpinning of marital rape.
Obligation sex is rape culture, but not all obligation sex is rape. Let me explain.
Obligation Sex that Isn’t Rape
When we did our focus groups for The Great Sex Rescue, we talked to so many women who had been having obligation sex for years–but their husbands hadn’t known. They weren’t reaching orgasm, their libido had tanked, but they kept initiating (often every 72 hours), just like they were told to.
Eventually things came to a head where they couldn’t keep doing this anymore (as things inevitably will when obligation sex is the main dynamic in your marriage), or else the husband noticed something was off, and they talked about it. And often their husbands were devastated to learn that their wives felt like they had to have sex, even if they didn’t want to.
We talked about Kay, whose libido was lost after suffering postpartum depression, and who stopped being able to orgasm, even though it was easy before they had kids. But she initiated for years, until she and her husband had that conversation. And he told her: I don’t ever want you to do something you don’t want to do. Even if we’re in the middle of something and it’s not working for you or you change your mind, I want you to tell me.
And she did, and he proved he was fine if she said no.
Her libido, and her ability to reach orgasm, returned.
We talked about a woman who initiated every 72 hours because that’s what she thought she was supposed to do. And she was upset that her husband never initiated. He told her that he was just trying to catch up to her! And they agreed that no one would ever initiate unless they really want to, and they’ve settled in to about once a week or so.
We had other stories just like this. And the commonality was that the motivation and pressure for obligation sex was not coming from the husband, but was instead internal. She believed that she owed him sex, because that’s what she’d been taught in all the books; on Focus on the Family; in women’s Bible studies She’d been taught that he couldn’t be faithful or feel loved without frequent sex.
(And again, to be fair, I used to teach this too. This was everywhere in evangelicalism).
"A groundbreaking look into what true, sacred biblical sexuality is intended to be. A must-read." - Rachael Denhollander
What if you're NOT the problem with your sex life?
What if the messages that you've been taught have messed things up--and what if there's a way to escape these toxic teachings?
It's time for a Great Sex Rescue.
Obligation Sex in the Grey Area
What about if he also believes obligation sex? This is where we can get into marital rape territory.
But I think there’s also this grey area. She feels pressured to have sex; he thinks she should have sex. And so they get into this dynamic where if he wants sex, she feels like it’s wrong to say no.
Now, rape is sexual penetration without consent, so anything that removes consent can be seen as rape.
There is, of course, a spectrum of such pressure, though, and not all rises to the level of rape. If he mopes and whines and is grumpy if she says no, is that rape? If he becomes morose and claims she doesn’t love him, is that rape?
I think that shows very unhealthy marriage dynamics, but in many cases it likely isn’t marital rape (in others, if such behaviour is extreme and becomes emotionally abusive, it definitely is). Regardless, it still requires deep untangling, and I hope he will read The Great Sex Rescue or read the first post in this obligation sex series. I hope that you may be able to go to a licensed counselor to talk through what a healthy sex life looks like.
You may also enjoy:
- 10 Questions to Ask if Your Wife Doesn’t Like Sex
- 2 Kinds of Marital Rape Evangelicalism (Inadvertently) Enables
- 4 Step Plan to Rebuild Your Sex Life (good for when obligation sex has been the main dynamic)
Obligation Sex that Crosses the Line to Rape
As we said in The Great Sex Rescue, if she can’t say no, then she can’t truly say yes, either.
If she can’t say no without something bad happening, then consent is impossible.
So marital rape could look like this:
- Physical force, where he overpowers her (for many, this is the only definition of marital rape. But it is only one of many).
- Performing sexual acts when she is asleep and hasn’t consented
- Using sex toys on her when she has actively said no
- Emotionally abusing or yelling at her or the kids if she says no
- Abusing the children in any way if she says no
- Giving the family the silent treatment or keeping the family walking on eggshells if she says no
- Embarrassing her in public if she says no
- Withholding money or something else that she needs if she says no
- Keeping her up for hours berating her using Bible verses, or accusing her of having an affair or wanting to have an affair if she says no
You may be able to think of others; this is not an exhaustive list. But if she needs to have sex to regulate his emotions so that he treats her and the family right, that is rape.
Please, please, if you see yourself in any of these scenarios, call a domestic violence hotline. This isn’t safe. This isn’t okay. While some believe that marital rape can’t happen, because if you’re married you’ve already consented, this is absolutely untrue. Marital rape is illegal in pretty much all developed nations.
If you believe you may be a victim of abuse, please contact your local Domestic Violence Hotline
- Canada: 800.799.SAFE (7233)
- United States: 1-800-621-HOPE (4673).
- United Kingdom: 08 08 16 89 111
- Australia: 1 800 737 732
- New Zealand: 0800 456 450
- Kenya: 0-800-720-072
- Nigeria: 0800 033 3333
- South Africa: 0800 428 428
The obligation sex message enables marital rape.
While not all obligation sex is marital rape, it is the obligation sex message that allows marital rape to flourish.
The obligation sex message teaches that sex is a male entitlement and a female obligation. Instead of seeing sex as something mutual, intimate, and pleasurable for both, the obligation sex message sees sex as merely centering on his right to use her body to climax. It is basically his right to use her body as a masturbatory aid, and considers her experience irrelevant.
This is what we hear, over and over again, in Christian resources that talk about how much men need sex, and how God commands us to give it freely.
The book The Love Dare, for instance, based on the movie Fireproof, says this:
When this legitimate need goes unmet–when it’s treated as being selfish and demanding by the other–our hearts are subject to being drawn away from marriage, tempted to fulfill this longing somewhere else, some other way…Sex is not to be used as a bargaining chip. It is not something God allows us to withhold without consequence.
They also use 1 Corinthians 7:3-5 to tell people they have to meet their spouse’s sexual needs, without saying anything about the orgasm gap or why there may be very good reasons to say no.
This is quite typical of what Christian resources say. It’s not the worst example–but it’s typical.
What happens when someone feels entitled to something? When it is denied them, they feel that they are the injured party. They feel like the other person is the bad guy. And if the other person is at fault, then they often feel the right to recoup what was withheld.
Obligation sex enables rape.
Not everyone who believes it will rape. But it does make it more likely.
Pastors, please know this: When you preach obligation sex, you cause some rapes that would otherwise not have happened. Authors, when you write this, you cause some rapes.
Look at your congregation, or imagine your readers. When you teach the obligation sex message, you cause some of these women iwho would otherwise not have been raped to be raped.
I know that’s harsh, but it’s what the numbers tell us. Obligation sex enables marital rape. We’re still trying to do a deep dive into this, but from the literature review we’ve done, along with our own numbers, it looks like marital rape is more common in evangelical couples who believe in male hierarchy than in the general population. Again, this is our problem.
Instead of teaching obligation sex, teach about how sex flows from a healthy relationship.
And teach that lack of libido is a sign that something is going on that needs to be investigated.
Read The Great Sex Rescue. Pick up The Great Sex Rescue toolkit to figure out how to talk about this in a healthy way (we have a checklist for you!).
But let’s end this message, once and for all, because it enables sexual violence in evangelical marriages. And that is not of God.
What do you think? When does something become marital rape? How common a problem do you think it is? Let’s talk in the comments!
The Obligation Sex Series
- 10 Things to Know about Obligation Sex
- Why Obligation Sex Destroys Libido (and how it affects us long-term)
- Are Obligation Sex and Marital Rape the Same Thing?
- A Way Forward to Recovery from Obligation Sex
- Why Obligation Sex Can Make Sex Feel Disgusting
- You Don't Need to Consent to Being Used (what to do when your husband insists on obligation sex)
- How Higher Drive Spouses Can Avoid Giving the Obligation Sex Message
- 10 Ways Men Can Initiate Sex Without Pressuring Her
- The Obligation Sex podcast
Previous Posts on Obligation Sex
- Can We Honor our Bodies' Rhythms?
- Does 1 Corinthians 7 Mean that Women Have No Sexual Autonomy?
- What Happens When Men Believe the Obligation Sex Message?
Previous Podcasts on Obligation Sex
- New Research on the effects of Obligation Sex
- The Myth of the Magic Penis
- Marital Rape, Consent, and the Problems with Obligation Sex
Plus please see our Great Sex Rescue Toolkit for handy downloads about the effects of obligation sex that you can give to your pastor, counselor, small group leader--anyone who teaches it!
And see chapters 9 and 10 in The Great Sex Rescue for all our charts, stats, and commentary!
“Sex is not to be used as a bargaining chip.” – S. & A. Kendrick
Agreed- it should not be a bargaining chip. However, they assume there is only one direction to be wrong in that paragraph. The flip side is a bargaining chip: for women not to go to hell for being disobedient. For being how we might keep our husbands from cheating on us. For being the only way we can be treated not unkindly (or even hatefully.)
“Pastors…When you preach obligation sex, you cause some rapes that would otherwise not have happened. Authors, when you write this, you cause some rapes.”
This seems harsh but WOW, it’s harsh because it is true. Their words strip many wives of the realization that we are people that have value just for being human. For being children of God, created by God. We don’t have to participate in the desecration of something that was meant to be loving and beautiful and unifying.
To comprehend that words intended to build up the body of Christ instead actually create rapists… just, wow.
Sadly, I can see people getting hung up on the borderline/gray area of what is or is not considered rape, when we should instead be staggered that this is even an issue in a religion that is supposed to be based on the love of Christ. I think reading “The Screwtape Letters” would be a better use of time for anyone hung up.
“When this legitimate need goes unmet–when it’s treated as being selfish and demanding by the other–our hearts are subject to being drawn away from marriage, tempted to fulfill this longing somewhere else, some other way…Sex is not to be used as a bargaining chip. ”
Do the authors not see that these two statements are contradictory?
Sex that is being had even when you don’t want it so as to prevent something unpleasant happening (e.g. your spouse being unfaithful to you) IS sex being used as a bargaining chip.
I suspect that what these authors really mean (but haven’t quite got the nerve to say) is that a wife witholding sex from her husband is using sex as a bargaining chip, but that a husband forcing his wife to give him sex so that he won’t cheat is not…
Wonder what they would say about a husband withholding sex from his wife.
Wow, just wow! I read The Love Dare years ago and even gave a copy to a friend and her husband for their wedding. I didn’t even realize this bit here:
When this legitimate need goes unmet–when it’s treated as being selfish and demanding by the other–our hearts are subject to being drawn away from marriage, tempted to fulfill this longing somewhere else, some other way…Sex is not to be used as a bargaining chip. It is not something God allows us to withhold without consequence.
Legitimate need? A legitimate need is what we need to survive such as food, water, shelter, and clothing. If humans don’t have these things, they could die. But now that a couple is married, sex suddenly becomes a need is dependant upon their survival. Since the authors are men, I am assuming they are referring to this legitimate need that is for men. So, when Christian men are single, the need for sex does not exist and as Christians, they should not masturbate.
So, if this “need” is not met, their (most likely men) hearts can be drawn away from marriage making them most likely to “fulfill this longing somewhere else” meaning turning to porn or an affair?
Most likely, these authors believe that wives use sex as a “bargaining chip” and withholding sex means there will be consequenses.
Well, from my personal experience, the consequences were coercion and marital rape. My ex “perform[ed] sexual acts when [I was] asleep and hadn’t consented.” He was emotionally abusive toward me if we went days without sex. I could not understand why he was so cold toward me because I didn’t think I did anything wrong. Then he told me about his sexual frustrations and he sometimes threatened that if I didn’t give him enough sex, he would cheat on me or go see a prostitute. I told him if he ever did such a thing, the marriage was over. I don’t know if he did such a thing since he was getting sex from me without my consent.
When I read The Love Dare all those years ago, I was long divorced and not even dating anyone, but I wanted to gain more understaning about how Christian marriages should be. I also read this book to learn how to love and serve others in my life better, because I heard that this book could apply to any type of relationship (parent-child, friends, etc), I thought it was okay.
Then again, I am not surprised that material like this comes from the Kendrick brothers. As I rewatched “Courageous” a few months ago, I saw some elements of patriarchal beliefs. Their stance was about the importance of fatherhood, yet in order for fathers to be active and present in their children’s lives, they have to be propped up as “leaders of their homes.” Somehow, this erases the importance and influence of mothers. I get that our society has a lot of absent fathers, so the church thinks the best way to get fathers involved in their children’s lives is to tell them they’re in charge and that makes them feel important. What about “get in their and help your wife (mother of your children) with the parenting” and “don’t let her do things alone?” I think that’s a better, more equal approach.
That absolutely is a better approach. But for some reason it’s not the one that’s given. I wonder if it’s because they think men won’t respond to anything that doesn’t put them in charge?
Or makes them do anything more than bring home a paycheck and be a sperm donor.
Thank you for the message and all the work you continue to do! Just wanted to say that I appreciated this post. It really spoke to me today.
Early on in our marriage, my wife would feel a lot a pressure – from cultural messages, family, the general notion that sexual connection in marriage was something that she was “supposed to want”, or even just the knowledge that I had a desire for that connection, regardless of how gently I might try to express it.
Not that I’m guilty-free there though. I also know there were times early on when I failed to keep my hurt or disappointment from showing after a couple weeks of disinterest or rejection. Something I now recognize as coercive.
Despite my attempts to assure her that I never wanted her to do anything that she didn’t want to and wasn’t completely mutual, there were certainly times when she’d try to initiate out of a sense of guilt or obligation.
I would always try to gently reject any initiation (or response) if I got the sense that it was coming from a place of obligation. But I’m sure there were times (especially early) when I failed to correctly tell the difference between genuine and obligated initiation, and failed to decline those.
As I learned more, and educated myself further on the topics of consent, coercion, male-entitlement, etc. I spent a long time feeling terrible about that. Wondering at times if I was literally guilty of martial rape for acquiescing to initiations that I’d failed at the time to notice were coming from a place of obligation.
So, I appreciate the nuance to the discussion today. It’s helpful for me, I think, to be able to step back and look at what obligation messages are coming from our culture around us. And how individual husbands can either lean into those messages (crossing the line into enabling marital rape) or recognize and combat those messages in their marriages. And I hope that even if I have made or do make mistakes along the way that I can keep trying to do better.
That’s so lovely, TJ! Thank you for jumping in. I think this comment will mean a lot to many guys reading this.
TJ, I think that if you are concerned about marital rape, it’s a pretty good bet that you are not doing it!
There is one thing I want to say here (several guys have mentioned it, and unlike you, they tend to be a little unpleasant about it, but I still think it’s worth addressing), and that is, rejection hurts! I have lived with a husband who rejected me probably 85-90% of the time, so I really can empathize with the guys who are doing without. I don’t know the answers to this conundrum; there are really legitimate reasons why a wife might not want sex, and I would never tell anyone to have it when they don’t want it. But it is hard on anyone to be consistently rejected sexually, and I really get that.
I really appreciate that you have worked on being who you need to be in the situation. I pray that there is healing for the both of you.
Thanks! I appreciate that acknowledgement, and sorry to hear that’s been your situation too. In some ways, I think it can often be even more painful and confusing for a woman in that situation, what with our culture messaging around sex and gender.
In our case, our marriage was (functionally, if not necessarily 100%) sexless from day one, so dealing with that hurt, and the emotional after-effects if it year after year has been a major part of my life for the last decade-and-a-half.
I don’t know the answers either. The years have been a slow process of moving through what kinda feel like the Five Stages of Grief, mourning our sex life. Finding the path to move towards Acceptance has been elusive. But I’m thankful that our marriage is still affectionate, fun, safe and secure in other, non-sexual ways.
So honest question. I am a husband who has recently been told I am a rapist. I have never done anything other than ask, beg, get mopey, clean the house hoping it helps get her “in the mood” , take her out, treat her special in some way, tell her how much pain I’m in, tell her I miss her, point out that it’s not good for us to abstain for months at a time for no reason (no baby, no period, just no sex) I have never forced it physically, I obviously want her to enjoy it. She has never instigated sex and if she has it is less than 10 times in our 20 year marriage. She has told me she could go on never having sex again for the rest of her life. Now after finding bare marriage (which we listen to together as I am trying hard to be a better husband) I am a rapist. I have not done these things:
1. Performing sexual acts when she is asleep and hasn’t consented
2. Using sex toys on her when she has actively said no
3. Emotionally abusing or yelling at her or the kids if she says no
4. Abusing the children in any way if she says no
5. Giving the family the silent treatment or keeping the family walking on eggshells if she says no ( I have given her the silent treatment but never the family)
6. Embarrassing her in public if she says no
7. Withholding money or something else that she needs if she says no
Keeping her up for hours berating her using Bible verses, or accusing her of having an affair or wanting to have an affair if she says no (we have had a fight when I have brought up a man’s need for sex or the Bible’s view I held)
I am not a porn user in any way, I am a Christian father who has now gone through Book of Eden Series and is doing everything to be a better man.
However my wife and I will be getting a divorce now at her insistence because I am a rapist. An abuser because I wanted to have sex.
My question for my own future knowledge is this: What is a man’s recourse if there is less than 8 times a year your wife will have sex with you and you are always the instigator and she is always unenthusiastic about it and most times says no? Why is it ok that when she wants sex (as few times as that has been) men always hop to (wired differently) but women never understand how it feels for a man who is always rejected. I am a a husband that always takes care of her first sexually and often times I would reject sex if she complied just for intercourse because I am longing for a deeper connection. Sex is the worst part of what could have been a lifelong marriage and I’m now a rapist by her definition. I waited until marriage for sex and outside of her wanting babies (where it was 5 times a day and she couldn’t get enough) I have never gotten to have that close bond god spoke about. Obviously we have a deep seated issue here but I don’t understand how I am labeled a rapist as a guy who always asked, and most often was denied and felt the pain of that denial. If I didn’t beg or do something out of the ordinary to earn I would have had Zero sex every year.
What was I supposed to do to not be a rapist?
Hi Jeff,
I’m so sorry you’re going through all this! That sounds awful.
It also definitely sounds that this would NOT be in the category of marital rape, though.
I obviously can’t comment specifically on your marriage here, but does she have trauma in her background? When we look at the reasons for libido dying off, a big reason is not feeling emotionally close during sex. But that may not be a marriage issue–it could be trauma in your past or believing terrible messages about sex.
Also, what was your sex life like at the beginning? Did she feel pleasure? Because if she didn’t, that may have taught her that sex is something quite distasteful.
If she’s listening to the podcast, she should know that sex is something mutual, intimate, and pleasurable for both. Can she tell you WHY it’s not those things to her? And does she have an idea of how to address them? We’ll be talking about this more in the series in this month, but that’s where I’d start.
I’d also say that if you have to beg or do something out of the ordinary, and this has been going on for 20 years, is it possible that you could have sought counseling earlier rather than repeating a pattern that is obviously damaging to both of you? There’s obviously something deeply wrong, but could that be addressed rather than focusing on sex?
In thinking about this further, and in hopes that this could help others in a similar situation, it sounds like a brutal cycle was started: your wife didn’t want sex; you begged, cajoled, and did everything you could to get sex; this made her not want sex more.
This is really the issue that we’ve been trying to get across: If someone doesn’t want sex, that’s a sign that there is something else going on. Instead of continuing with business as usual (trying to get her to have sex), figure out what that something is. Go to counseling (even if you have to go yourself). Take sex off the table (and tell her you’re taking it off the table for a while) and work on intimacy. Figure out if there is sexual trauma in her background.
If you continue with business as usual, seeing this as a sex problem, you will cement the problem. That’s why it’s so important at the very beginning, when this becomes an issue, that you don’t see it as a sex issue. There’s something else there. Work on figuring out what that is, and there’s a better chance to recapture intimacy and not have years of hurt.
Thanks for the reply. She did want to go to counseling early on. We would have gone to a pastor so what fruit would have come of that I’m not sure. I would like to go to counseling with a trained certified counselor but she has told me “too little too late”. I obviously mourn or loss of marriage but now am still looking to grow and understand more. She has always orgasmed in sex and early on enjoyed it when she could be “someone else” ie role playing. I told her it was fun but I also just wanted to be with my wife. She never role played again and the sex changed dramatically. When we wanted kids she was very “ready” all the time so it wasn’t weird to go 4-5 times daily. A couple of years ago she went through another time like this but it was when I was traveling for work a lot pre-Covid.
I was not a perfect husband by far. Early on I was unengaged and unfulfilling to her. We were not equal partners. I & she grew up in the old church patriarchy and we were both living that life. She tried very hard, read books like “ me serve him” and other damaging books. Things would get better for a while but she wasn’t truly happy. I started being a more present parent engaged husband in 2015/2016. I made a ton of life changes and most everything got better but not the sex side. A year ago we started the journey together going through book of Eden and your podcast as well as some others she listened to on her own. Although I was told I was now the perfect husband. We have been abstaining during this entire year. We initially agreed to a two month abstinence but it’s obviously gone on longer as she did not want to resume. She started calling me emotionally abusive and a rapist from my past behavior. I did not want to accept these titles as I know my heart and I know I did not cross the line. I did discuss the Bible verses with her I did beg, I did give her a silent treatment but honestly those were less intentional and more results of how I was actually feeling. She told me outside of Sex I was now exactly the way a husband should be. She wanted to have a permanent platonic marriage for the rest of our lives and I couldn’t agree to that. I know it’s not Gods design and I truly feel like there is a special connection made when we make love. For her this is not something she can ever see herself doing again. I grieve but also want to continue learning so I can be in a healthy place moving forward.
Jeff, it sounds like you’re really trying to grow and do the right thing. That’s so encouraging for me to hear, really. I’m glad you’re sharing! Sometimes I do lose heart.
But it could also be that your wife has significant trauma from what happened early in the relationship. It sounds like she does interpret what happened earlier as rape, and even if you don’t think it was, it seems like her body definitely does.
Here’s the thing: I know you really miss sex. But she should have had a fulfilling sex life too, that was the fuel for passion and joy and celebration in her life. She didn’t get that either. And it may seem like she is the roadblock, but it’s quite likely that her body internalized the message that sex was threatening. This likely was not entirely (or even primarily) from you, if she was also reading all those problematic books. But she did get that message, and this has been stolen from her too.
Would she be willing to go to a trauma therapist just to work on some of these issues? That may be the way I’d approach it: You’ve both lost so much for a whole variety of reasons. What if you could find it again and heal? What would that take?
But I’d focus on that, rather than debating whether or not you actually raped her in the past, because even if you didn’t, her body felt like it was rape, and that’s likely why she has no libido now.
I really hope you can move forward; it seems like you both have done so much work already. It would be wonderful to see restoration, and I do think that Jesus delights in restoration!
I will add one observation: you said she enjoyed sex when she “could be somebody else,” and when you said you just wanted to be with your wife (which is legitimate) she shut down. No expert here, but that sounds like she is dissociating, which is something that needs to be explored, if the two of you are able to do that. I pray you can.
Also, I know it can be so hard when we are told how our actions have hurt someone that we love and didn’t mean to hurt. I don’t know any answers for you, but I will be praying for you.
Yes I would love to have her see someone about the trauma, she will she said however unfortunately for us it will not be done as a couple. She has firmly decided to move on. I guess what I struggled with the most is when I hear how she felt it was rape every time but she also did still send me pictures and dirty texts occasionally un-requested saying she couldn’t wait for me to… well you get the picture. I have been around rape and trauma victims and this behavior seems contradictory to how a victim of rape would act. She states it was random moments when she was aroused and she thought it would help her work past her feelings of abuse. It’s hard for men to swallow being called a “Rapist” by someone you have loved, created amazing children with and cherished for decades. Thinking that although the sex wasn’t frequent, when it did happen she at least enjoyed it. By her own admission she did orgasm most every time but towards the end was picturing other situations in her head during to aid in that. I know there are a lot of messages out there that are to encouraging women to “Fly Free” and move on, that they are not required to stay with an abuser. Even if this is accurate, that you are free to leave, is this what we should be encouraging women to do when the Husband is literally turning his life upside down to be the exact husband of her dreams? Going through programs that are helping him understand the damage of the patriarchy and how it can marginalize women only to be told “too little too late?” What a terrible message to any husband willing to do whatever he can to restore his marriage. I have listened to podcasts she has listened to that paint hopelessness in restoring marriages affected by patriarchal abuse. It’s sad. We are called to restoration. Imagine Jesus telling the woman at the well “Too little. Too late” Casting the first stone instead of asking he who was without sin to do so. This new message is empowering to women and I support it. However, if it is not carefully guarded and talked about with Grace and restoration being the absolute goal (what we know God would want to see ultimately happen) then we run the risk that this message much like the patriarchy before it can actually destroy a marriage. I love my wife, always will. I will always want the best for her and even though I too felt hurt during the marriage unfortunately my feelings are invalidated as I was part of the patriarchy and the problem. When you wait 21 years to both lose your virginity together after marriage, I guess I expected the most magical thing was about to happen every day for the rest of my life lol. We were burning with passion leading up to the wedding and honestly almost crossed the line many times. Perhaps the purity we both strived for heading into marriage ultimately hurt us. We didn’t even kiss until the alter and that was said to everyone in attendance, but secretly we had touched and even brought each other to Orgasm many times before our wedding date. Maybe the failure set us up for sexual misery in marriage. We had a very good sex life 3 seasons in our marriage. When we were first married while she was role playing, when she was trying to get pregnant the 1st and 2nd time and lastly when I was working 70 hours a week and traveling non-stop. To be told it all felt like rape makes me think her memory has been jaded and whatever coaching that someone is doing thinking they are helping is actually destroying any chance we had at a full reconciliation. She has equated me as the reason for any and all trauma she feels. I hope she is able to get counseling about whatever it is that has hurt her but as she has told me counseling to restore our sex life would be the last thing she would ever focus on. Well this has gotten very long. Sorry for brain dumping. Helps to write some of these things out and I do love hearing your podcast so in a way it feels like a conversation and is somewhat therapeutic. I don’t know if you know what podcast I am referring to but I am happy to send it and discuss in a direct message if you’d like as I don’t want to name drop or talk poorly of them publicly.
Jeff,
I mean this in a way meant to help. You seem to keep placing the majority of responsibility of this on your wife and the materials she has encountered in th past year as you promote your own hurts. Shesaid she feels you raped her. Please let that sink in. I hear you are hurting but please don’t minimize her hurt- it does not matter so much right now if you did- what matters is that she has not felt safe with you.
This likely started early on, when you said she wanted to see a counselor… you tiptoed around it but it sounds like you were not willing at that time, is that correct? She was being open and vulnerable and putting trust in you at that point, and your actions at that time showed her you were not a safe person and her wants didnt matter.
When she role-played and you said you wanted to be with her not a character, she probably took that as you criticizing how she was in bed. When sex changed, did you pursue counselling at that time? It seems like there were several points at which you could have proven yourself trustworthy and saf and unfortunately you missed them.
Not trying to hit you while you’re down but please realize allowing her to go through almost 20 years of abuse (silent treatment, cajoling, and using bible verses to try to coerce her into having sex are emotionally and spiritually abusive so it is an appropriate term) has taken its toll on her mind, heart, and body. You demonstrated to her you werent safe and your relationship wasnt worth the work since you were getting sex. Now that the sex is missing but everything else is great, you want to work on it. That likely speaks to her as you only caring about getting sex.
I’m also confused as you started off saying “my wife and I will be getting a divorce now at her insistence” which sounds like she is demanding a divorce. Later you say “She wanted to have a permanent platonic marriage for the rest of our lives and I couldn’t agree to that.” That sounds like you ended the marriage but are trying to pin it all on her.
You claim a special connection when you “make love.” Can you understand that for her, it has not been “making love” if she has not been mentally or emotinally present.? *She* has not experienced making love: she has participated in sex. Even orgasmic sex does not mean there was a loving connection there. And if you felt closer to her when she was disassociating, she probably feels there was never any real closeness, that you never really knew her.
I’m sorry again youre gonig hrough this and I don’t want to hit you while down, but I see a lot of the side-stepping here my husband did when going through similar, and we did not start making improvements until he owned up to what he had done instead of nit-picky arguing about where I might be wrong. I needed to feel that he heard and accepted that I was deeply hurting: and that my hurt was more important to him than his pride or his orgasms.
Whatever way this turns out, I hope you seek counselling from a professional for your own. There’s a lot to work through here for everyone. Praying for healing.
I want to address something Jeff said about rape victims so he’s not putting out misinformation.
“I have been around rape and trauma victims and this behavior seems contradictory to how a victim of rape would act.”
Granted I am not an expert in the field but I do know it is entirely possible, even an increased likelihood, that a rape victim would behave more sexually promiscuous. Not always but it is a direction they can head toward. They have had control stolen from them and that gives them some illusion of control back.
Most of us can claim to having been around rape and trauma victims, we just don’t often know who they are. It doesn’t mean we get to decide how they should behave.
Ok, that was just really bothering me. Thanks.
Very true, Nessie! Also, trauma shows up in so many different ways. There isn’t “one” “right” way to act.
Jeff, you may have moved on from this conversation, but I picked up on one clue that you might consider further as you seek understanding. You said that publicly, you and your then- girlfriend (now wife), pretended that you had never been intimate and that you had followed all the purity rules to the letter. You were publicly praised for this at your wedding.
But that wasn’t the truth at all. You were already experiencing sex if you were having orgasms together. You may have told yourself that as long as you didn’t “cross the line” of PIV intercourse, you were still on the right side of “purity,” but that was false. You were deceiving yourself if you thought that, and you were definitely deceiving others if you were presenting your relationship as nonphysical, when it was entirely the opposite.
My guess would be that your wife was much more affected by this hypocrisy than you were. She probably felt very conflicted: she was drawn to you sexually, but she also wanted to be truly “pure.” She knew she was lying, and possibly felt deep shame and guilt and self hatred for both the hypocrisy and the premarital sexual activity. She hoped that getting married would cure it, and when it didn’t, she threw herself into ways to quiet the feelings of shame – distancing herself through role playing, reading all the books on how to change herself, becoming a mom. But none of those cured the negative associations she had with the start of your sexual relationship.
If she went in to marriage carrying those conflicting feelings, and they were never addressed and resolved, they are likely a major contributing factor to the bitter fruit that is present in your marriage today. She hated herself for wanting premarital sex, and for not controlling herself AND for not figuring out how to control you…and that self hatred helped to kill her love for you. Deep inside she felt disrespected, that you didn’t care enough about her to control yourself around her and treat her in an honorable manner, ie, to follow the “purity rules” wholeheartedly for her sake. My guess would be that you never made an attempt to “slow things down”, instead you explored every boundary short of intercourse— even though you were just as aware of the “purity rules” as she was. I acknowledge that I could be completely wrong, but perhaps there is at least some truth in my guesses.
You were very young and you were trying to follow the playbook you had been given, and for that I feel much sympathy for both of you. I don’t think nosy (borderline creepy) older adults should be keeping tabs on whether an engaged couple has kissed or not, and I don’t think their level of premarital involvement is an appropriate topic for wedding speeches. Being held up to a public standard often just contributes to lying and hiding things.
I could be totally off base, but maybe something I said here will spark a helpful thought. May God give you what you need at this time.
Thinking through my previous post a little more: you are trying to make sense of how on one hand, your wife could, in certain seasons, desire sex, then in other seasons (most of the last 20 years) really have an aversion to it, and at the end of it all, say that you coerced her and even raped her.
Is it possible her “mixed messages” come from the mixed feelings I described previously? She knew she had betrayed her own values before marriage, and lied about it – and a key element of her lack of integrity, her lack of moral “wholeness” in following her own values, was you. Her feelings for you, her desire for you, her fear of losing you if she said no to premarital activity, your failure to protect her from situations where you might both compromise your values… let’s put it this way: there is something in your life that brings up shameful memories and feelings of guilt. You have to live with this thing, so you try different approaches to forget the feelings, or override the old memories with new ones. I think her enthusiastic embrace of sex while trying to conceive says a lot: in the world you grew up in, having children was a moral good. She could feel morally good about sex, because it was for a “higher cause”. Kind of like getting to eat a lot of the foods you enjoy when you’re pregnant because it’s “for the baby”. Or getting to immerse yourself in a childish hobby you really love because it’s “for the kids.” She was free to enjoy sex because she could put away the guilty feelings for a while. But having children couldn’t heal the original guilt. And so there’s this thing in her sexual experience that always nags at her, and eventually she admits to herself, after years of trying to sublimate the feelings or correct them through teaching that told her the solution was to erase herself, that she hates the thing that made her feel guilty all these years.
From your description, it sounds like your wife is a sexual person who didn’t have much trouble experiencing physical pleasure. The wound lies in the fact that she first experienced it while feeling disrespected (ie, you valued getting pleasure from her body more than you valued her reputation or integrity) , unsafe (what if her hypocrisy were discovered, and of course, you can’t hide it from God), and very, very bad and conflicted about herself. It was amplified and not healed by the fact that you showed lack of consideration and maturity in other ways during the first 13ish years of marriage. This just deepened the feelings of being disrespected and not valued, and I’m sure getting the religious message that the solution was to erase herself and “serve you” just infected the wound.
I don’t know what the solution is, but for her own sake, I hope that she can find peace. Again, I don’t know your true situation, but transferring her self-hatred and blame to hatred of you isn’t going to heal her wound. Divorcing you won’t really heal it, either. But maybe in some way she feels like she is taking back control of the things that got out of her control (partly through her lack of self control, but perhaps more through yours, and including feelings of being disrespected and unvalued as a moral person). She has been trying for years to live in a state of moral confusion and conflicting feelings, and you becoming a more decent and mature human doesn’t really solve that original wound or help her to find resolution or peace. My suspicion is that she is very, very angry: at herself still, but also at you, and even more at the hypocritical religious system that set you both up, and the deity that the system described. Women’s anger is something that conservative Christianity is not really equipped to deal with. She has done all this work (courses, podcasts, etc)- but she can’t fake peace, joy, or forgiveness anymore, so she is embracing what feels genuine, which is her anger and rage. I feel like I am rambling, but hopefully my ramble my give you some insight into what has happened in your wife’s heart. 20 years is a long time.
I’m sorry to make so many posts here, but another thought: are you aware that there are multiple Christian sex/marriage resources that advise women to send racy texts and pictures to their husbands (whether they actually want to or not)? The more I think about it, it makes perfect sense the part about your wife saying that when she was acting extra sexy, she actually “thought it would help her work past her feelings of abuse.” Feelings of Abuse=feeling used, feeling valued mostly for her body, feeling guilt and shame and lack of control. The church told her the way to have a happy marriage and good sex life was to be extra sexy, so she tried doing that when she felt she could do so with at least partial sincerity . It sounds like she tried to do all the stuff the church and conservative Christian media told her to do for a long time, but it didn’t acknowledge or heal the underlying feelings of guilt, powerlessness, and hurt associated with her sexual initiation and your relationship. When she finally admitted to herself that it hadn’t helped her, the anger came out loud and clear.
You say, “ I did discuss the Bible verses with her I did beg, I did give her a silent treatment but honestly those were less intentional and more results of how I was actually feeling.” Why is it ok for you to behave badly because you were feeling badly but she had to overcome her bad feelings about sex and have it anyway? Why do you get to act authentically and possibly immaturely but she is expected to always do what you think is right?
“Why is it ok for you to behave badly because you were feeling badly but she had to overcome her bad feelings about sex and have it anyway?”
–He did say “I was not a perfect husband by far. Early on I was unengaged and unfulfilling to her. ” Further on, he seems quite repentant in describing how he’s committed to change.
“Why do you get to act authentically and possibly immaturely but she is expected to always do what you think is right?”
–He never said “he gets to…”, nor did he say “she is expected to…” Did you actually read the post?
Are people so bent on making sure everyone knows sex problems in marriage are always (or almost always) the man’s fault, that even when men come here to ask for help and understanding, they still feel the need to twist their words, misquote in order to pile on the guilt and shame?
The issue is that women live like this for YEARS, possibly DECADES, and when the men finally listen, the men think a quick “I’m sorry” should fix it instantaneously.
In a rare few instances, that might be enough. But most women have those negative experiences so deeply learned in their BODIES, not their hearts, not their minds, that they are going to need a significant amount of time for their bodies to unlearn those lessons.
If it takes five or ten positive statements to overcome the effects of one negative statement, it seems completely reasonable to expect the same kind of ratio in the sexual realm. And that is going to TAKE A LOT OF TIME.
Jeff, I hope you can find a place and community to help you heal. You’re coming with a right heart, you don’t need anymore guilt and shame being heaped on you for being vulnerable.
I didn’t respond to Jeff to try to increase guilt or shame. He struck me as someone who was very sad and confused and was trying to understand what roots had born such bitter fruit in his life. He couldn’t seem to understand why his wife was saying she felt like she was raped and refused sex unless he nagged and begged her, when he had only experienced the special connection of “making love.”
So, the question is, does he want to understand more of his wife’s experience? Unless she has a history of making wild, false accusations against other people and has shown other evidence of delusional thinking, there is a REASON that the idea that she was raped resonates with her. From his description, it sounds like she tried pretty hard at working on their marriage, too- asking him to go to counseling early on (which it sounds like he declined), reading lots of books that lined up with the brand of Christianity she was raised in, podcasts, marriage courses…
I feel bad for so many young couples who were like Jeff and his wife, raised with an obsession with sex and “purity”, taught to value appearances and the letter of the law, rather than being taught about Christlike love. We can’t change what 21-year-old Jeff did, but it’s obvious that his attempts to change haven’t healed past wounds. Maybe those wounds won’t ever be healed, maybe this marriage won’t make it. I hope it does. I suspect the only hope is to take a hard look at the past and make a genuine effort to understand what his wife has experienced. Saying stuff like “I wasn’t a perfect husband”, to me, shows he’s not there yet. Which of us is a “perfect” partner? That’s a pretty generic statement. Perhaps He needs to get specific about what happened in the past, and wrestle with the fact that some of his best experiences were some of his wife’s worst ones. there is a reason he shared his story in this space- maybe he wanted to hear another perspective, like Proverbs 27:5-6 says.
Like your response to Jeff, I think the determining factor whether rape has occurred in those gray areas, is not to debate the specifics of the situation (did he mope when she said no so she gave in), but rather to look at the effects in the woman’s body. Does she carry trauma from the event? If her body is telling her it was a violation, then it was.
I do think that’s the most important thing to understand if we’re trying to move forward. I think that can be hard for men especially to hear, but ignoring it doesn’t help healing happen. The fact is she was traumatized in some way, and acknowledging that, figuring out why, and then addressing it is the only way to move towards healing. Chastising her for feeling what she is feeling will only cement the issue.
I am a wife who has experienced a lot of sexual trauma in my marriage. I would call it rape because I was so responsible for his emotional regulation and the kids and I absolutely experienced emotional abuse if I didn’t comply with his sexual needs.
And my husband is sorry and he is trying to make a lot of changes and be patient. But the thing is….you still can’t control the trauma you have gone through or force yourself to want or feel comfortable with something in Jesus’ name. I love Jesus more than anything. This puts so much guilt and shame on me after I have experienced so much trauma. So what do you do? Do you wait another 16 years to see if maybe you can feel safe and attracted to someone after marital rape? This is what our pastor thinks we should do. I know God can do miracles. What do I do in the meantime? There isn’t always a right or a wrong. I didn’t ask for the things that happened to me. My husband could be the greatest most selfless guy ever at this point…still can’t force my body to be turned on by him.
It completely wrecks me to think about breaking up a family. It also wrecks me to think about going back to just making sex my job or trying to convince myself I want to have sex with him when I don’t. I’m having a very hard time making a decision either way and it’s hard to just sit in it all.
K, it’s okay to take a break from sex when you get over trauma! And if your husband is truly repentant, he would understand that. Have you seen a trauma counselor? There are certain therapies like EMDR that can actually be quite effective, and I wonder if that would help?
But you don’t have to “perform” through your trauma.
Sheila I have done a lot of trauma work, and it was very helpful. But my issues deal specifically with him. I’m so uninterested in him in that way. I’m definitely back to feeling like a normal person. I forgive him, care about him, but could go a lifetime without having sex with him. I’m just not sure it’s fixable. And that’s the hardest part to carry. How long do you wait to see if your interest in someone comes back? I’m sure there isn’t any specific answer. I just wish people understood that sometimes actions have permanent consequences.
I resonate with this so much!! Yes, he’s “getting it”; yes, he’s repented and is trying so hard but everything that’s shared here (and anywhere I can find) feels like “that would have probably been helpful ten or 20 years ago”! 37 years into the obligation sex lifestyle is a LOT of negative training to recover from. The aversion is real!!
Look forward to exploring EMDR when I get back to the US. It’s come up more than once, so hopeful it will help.
Oh, K, I just don’t have the answer to that. I think that’s what you need to talk to a really good therapist about who can help you walk through the decision. Sometimes the trauma is just too great and something big has been broken.
Sheila,
I’m so glad I found this! I read your book 2 years ago after discussing it with my wife. Our pastor had recommended another book to the congregation and it seemed problematic and that’s when I found you and your surveys and book scores. What I didn’t know at the time was a couple we went to church with (we have kids the same age) was experiencing these issues to an extreme degree. They were homeschoolers with several kids, active in the church. It seemed like they had it together. Then suddenly they vanished. It came out she had accused him of sexual assault.
The case went to trial recently and I sat in on some of it.
I was floored to hear the “72 hour rule” come out in a court of law. Somehow I’d escaped that toxic teaching but this couple knew it well.
Their sex was certainly obligation sex but there was also marital rape. Without getting graphic, she says she was forced into bed or would wake up to find her husband, well, forcing himself on her as she slept.
Yet the jury let him go.
I’m struggling to understand how he wasn’t held to account for this sexual violence but part of I believe is that far too many couples have internalized these toxic teachings and jurors couldn’t believe a good Christian man could rape his wife. She never said no so I think folks assume she consented. She turned away, she didn’t kiss him when he kissed her, and finally she said she went limp fearing he’d hurt her or the kids. But apparently because she didn’t say no… she was ok with it.
I’m just horrified by what’s happened and want to thank you for what you are doing. It makes a difference and has helped me make sense of this tragedy in my own church family.