Sheila Does it really matter if women get to lead in church, get to pastor a church, or are we just making a big deal out of nothing? Welcome to the Bare Marriage podcast. I’m Sheila Wray Gregoire from Bare Marriage.com where we live and talk about healthy, evidence based biblical advice for your sex life and your marriage. And one of the things that comes up so much in the work that we do is that the biggest roadblock for marital happiness, for sexual satisfaction, for marital success, is putting men in hierarchy over women? Overwhelmingly, our studies have found this. We’ve studied more than 40,000 people now in five different studies. And this keeps coming up over and over and over again that we can’t give good marriage advice without confronting the biggest thing that is hurting marriages, which is male entitlement, and saying that men have authority over women. The problem in the church is that that belief that men are in authority over women isn’t only in marriage, it’s also in our churches, too. And so, you know, even though we started off talking about marriage so often, the topic of what to do with women in the church also comes up because they really are one of the same things. Does God truly value women? Does God truly see us as equal, or are we meant to be somehow subordinate to the men in our lives and need this mediator to go before God? And today we are going to talk to two great people who have done some major work on this and have some great thoughts that I’m eager to share with you before we do that. Of course, I do want to say a special, thank you to our patreon supporters. You can join for as little as $5 a month and get access to our Facebook group, which is super active. It’s a great place to just run things by people that you’re struggling with or wondering about, about the Bible, about faith, about how we process things in the church. It’s our safe space. So it’s where I often run things by people before they show up on this podcast, too. And that money helps fund what we do. It helps fund our research projects. It helps fund our translation efforts. And of course, you can also donate through the Good Faith initiative of the Bosco Foundation to those things if you would like a tax receipt. And yeah, we were always looking for new donors, especially monthly donors, either through patron or through good fruit faith. Because when we have monthly donors, then we know that our budget is met and we don’t have to worry so much about fundraising, and we can put more of our efforts into actually creating content and getting the work done. So if you enjoy what we do, if everyone joined together and gave even just a small amount like it would just it would be incredible and do so much good. So thank you for all of them. And now, without further ado, let’s listen in to our first interview. Well, I am really pleased to have on the podcast Hannah Hunt, who is one of the editors on our Call to Serve project. We’re going to be talking about it today. Hello, Hannah. Hannah Hello, Sheila. Thanks for speaking with me. Sheila Yeah, I’m so glad you’re here. So tell me about this new book and the bigger project that you’re involved in. Hannah For sure. So Called to Serve is an oral history project first and foremost. It started with the impetus of Doctor Melody Maxwell, who is a professor of Christian history at Acadia Divinity College. And so she teaches courses there, like, on women in the Christian tradition and so on. And, she developed an interest in the stories of women who had been ordained, in the Canadian Baptists of Atlantic Canada denomination. And so if you’re from another background, you may or may not be aware there’s a plethora of Baptist denominations in the world. Sheila So many. Hannah Yes. And there’s many even in Canada. And so, yeah, so some of our denominations, most of them in Canada, are Baptist, do ordain women. It’s not necessarily accepted by all. You know, there’s still that debate and that contention around the topic. But in the CBA, see, the first woman to be ordained was in the 1950s. And so Melody realized, you know, some of these first women, they’re getting older, some have passed already. So we have a narrow window here to kind of get some of that history. And so that was where the project started. She started interviewing people in 2019. And then I was brought on board, I think a year or two later. And, originally these interviews were going to go into the archives and I’m a little bit more interested in the communication side of things than the academic. And so I just thought, you know, I don’t want to go to the archives and I don’t want to listen to two hours of just, you know, prattling, with somebody. So. Yeah. So I suggested that we could edit these interviews into podcast episodes and kind of cut out the interviewer completely and just have them be someone’s story. And so that’s where the podcast began. The podcast has just finished seven seasons. We think we’re going to do one more season this fall and winter. And, then in the last year, we decided we would be able to turn some of those podcast episodes into chapters of a book and that would be able to reach a new audience. And so we’ve got Called to Serve the book now, which came out earlier this year, and it features the stories of 14 women in ministry from the Canadian Baptists of Atlantic Canada. You’ve got pastors, chaplains, missionaries, a variety of ministry interests, and, then so that’s the long answer. Sheila Yeah. And I read it last week, and I just found it fascinating to read these women’s stories. And of course, one of my best friends and someone who works, and as part of the Bare Marriage team, lives in Halifax and attends one of the churches in your denomination and just loves it. And that’s where I did a simulcast, this year at her, at her church. It was very exciting. And I loved how the book covered things like, when we think about female ordination, we often think about female pastors. And there certainly were some who served as senior pastors. But to sing the whole gamut, you had military chaplains and one woman who got started, you know, as a military chaplain, because she lived right where the Swiss air disaster happened. And for those of you who remember, that flight went down and it was Halifax fishermen and people with boats who went out and tried to help people. And of course, there were no survivors, but they were very traumatized after that. And there’s a big, there’s a big memorial to that. So after that and being a chaplain during that period, she went into the military and served in Afghanistan and did some amazing things and got I think she made it to colonel in the Canadian military. And then there were women who were missionaries and started ministries overseas, and a lot of people who had prison ministries and hospital chaplains and just incredible stuff. And one of the things that you talked about when we spoke earlier this year, one of the things you said is that for your podcast, one of the questions you keep asking is what ministries would not have happened had these women not stepped up? Hannah Yeah. Sheila Like when you listen to their stories and you think, what, what would have happened had these women not stepped up when they were called? Hannah Yeah, yeah. I think when we talk about women in ministry, it tends in the church to be a debate. It tends to be about how to interpret specific verses. And what I’m really pleased with this project is I think stories have a different kind of power. And when you listen to a woman describe what it means to be in ministry, you realize you know she is living out the Great Commission. She is serving like Jesus served, and you really see the goodness of what she is doing. I think you can see the sincerity and the humility in these stories and how they’re bringing Christ into communities, into spaces that are really quite moving. Yeah. It makes me think of Jesus when he gets his feet anointed, you know, and he and everyone’s objecting to what this woman’s doing, she’s stepping out of line, and he just says, leave her alone, she’s doing a good thing. Yeah. And I think when I read these stories, I just I’m so encouraged not by the fact that there are women in ministry, but by the fact that Christ is working and they’re really working in ways that, to me, are freeing, because I think sometimes when we talk about ministry, we have these ideas of what it looks like, and it requires a position and it requires a certain amount of authority or whatever a certain personality. And when I read these stories, I feel like it’s really validating for all personalities, all giftings that you can make a difference. And you can minister whatever that looks like we are. We’re all called to serve, as they say. Sheila Yeah. And to the women’s stories that are in the book, great books. I’m going to link it in the comments and I really encourage you to get it, just as I think biographies are so interesting and reading these stories, but not a single one of them started because they wanted to be gender warriors. Like not a single one of them said, I am going to demand my rights as a female follower of Christ to be ordained. Like that’s not what they were about. Instead, they just grew more and more in love with Jesus and felt called to serve him full time. And often that service required ordination. And so this picture that we get of, oh, will you just want women to be in ministry so that you can have power? It’s like, that’s not what any of these women were about. None of them. Hannah No. And you have to wonder, why is that our first assumption? There’s something about how we view these, you know, like Christ came to serve. He says he has all power and authority in heaven and on earth. And then he gets down on his knees and washes people’s feet and says, and this is what I do with it, and there’s no one higher than me. So the highest role is getting down on our knees and washing each other’s feet. And then when we see these women doing it, I think it becomes clear that that’s what’s going on. And there is a lot of baggage around the idea of ordination and feminism as well. They touch on that, and it means a lot of different things to each of the women. It’s kind of funny reading through all their different perspectives. Sheila Because some of them I disagreed with, like, like some of them were more conservative even than I would be. Yeah. But yeah. And I think that’s what reminds us that we can’t just pigeonhole people. We need to listen to people as whole people and have these whole stories. Okay. So in 1954, when the first woman was ordained in the Canadian Baptists of what is it, the Canadian Baptists of Atlantic Canada. Hannah Yeah. The CBAC. Sheila CBAC, two thirds of the convention approved. But then in the next few decades, there was one other woman ordained in the 1960s, one in the 1970s. And then it wasn’t until the 80s, especially into the 90s, that there were more and more women and got ordained. And so really a lot of these women were trailblazers. So just because there was one in the 1950s doesn’t mean the doors were wide open. Hannah Sheila And one of the missionaries who went, she was a single woman, I believe, and she was serving in Brazil. And she started this amazing ministry, with marginalized kids, you know, and she was doing all this great work, and she said, I’ll just read a quote from it. The Brazilian Baptist Convention didn’t ordain women, and they did not appreciate the fact that I was ordained. I found that I was very often on the rejection side of things and often out of the loop. I didn’t know if they even liked the work I was doing, because I was working with marginalized kids and troublemakers. It was work that I had been asked to do, but I’m not sure a lot of them liked it. They probably figured it would be an older man and his wife who came down to do it, and it wasn’t. And what I found interesting about her story and others is that they went down to do the work, right, like she went down to work with these marginalized kids, and yet they ended up having to defend themselves in ministry. So and that happened with a lot of these women if they weren’t trying to get power. They weren’t trying to get ordained. They were just trying to do the work because they really love Jesus and they felt called to serve. But then you end up having to learn all about the reasons why women can still serve and can still teach men. And you become an expert on first Timothy 2. And that and I just feel like Kaitlyn Schiess from the Holy Post. She wrote a great Substack post about this, a couple of weeks ago. Like how much of women’s emotional energy and ministry energy has been spent just simply defending their right to do the work that God has called them to do? And how much more could we have done if we had just recognized that calling in the first place? Hannah Yeah. And I will say the stories that we feature in the book are some of the more positive ones, not exclusively like they’re there are definitely challenges they talk about. But one of the challenges, you know, Canada is a small country. Atlantic Canada is a small space. And so the women that we spoke to, many of them did not want to get into specifics about things or did not want to include the specifics in the podcast. Some declined to speak with us on the record or at all because of how negative their experiences were. And so in the book in particular, you see women that persisted and, often persisted just because they decided, you know, that’s not my battle to fight like, if God wants me to serve, he’ll provide the opportunities. I don’t need to engage in all that. But to your point, I mean, it is important to know that this has had a toll. There are women that have left ministry, even have left faith because of this. There’s some really difficult things that have happened and I can’t always describe them explicitly. And I think that can sometimes skew people’s understanding of the challenges. Sheila Yeah. Can we talk with Heather McGregor for a minute? Because I want to get a little bit of time with her because I found her so fascinating. So she was ordained in 1994 at the age of 53. Right. So she had already raised her kids. This was like a second, you know, when you reinvent yourself at menopause. I mean, I did it like a bunch of us have done it. I know you’re not there yet, but it’s a common thing. And she really wanted to be a hospital chaplain, but she needed to be ordained in order to get this job. So she had the job offered to her. But this was the last step she had to work through. And she was very nervous about this commitment. So you have to. Yeah, I’m trying to figure out how it works because a bunch of women describe the process. But you’re sitting in this big room with all these people who can quiz you, and you can ask any number of questions. And so it’s like an interrogation you’re really under. Hannah It’s not meant to be. But for her, it certainly was. Yeah. Sheila And she, she really had a lot of dread because she had heard a lot of negative stories about the examining council and, during some years, so I guess it’s different people on the examining council every year and some years, voters were counseled to abstain if the reason for their negative vote was solely gender. So if they were, if they were just going to say no because it was a woman, they were counseled to abstain from voting. But in other years, that recommendation didn’t hold. And so she went through this whole thing, and she was accused of seeking ordination. Because you want to, Lord it over us, right? So they accused her of that in the middle of this thing. And she was told at the end of the meeting that she hadn’t passed, but then she was invited back that night because there had been all of this kerfuffle, and there was major fighting in the committee because it was clear that the people who were saying no to her were saying no, only on her gender. And the convention had already said that you could ordain women, but not everyone agreed. Right. But what I found so interesting about this was that she had prepared this statement of faith. Hannah Yes. Sheila And she had shared it with several of her professors. And then another man who was also going for ordination said his statement of faith wasn’t good enough. So the professor forwarded this woman’s statement of faith, Heather’s statement of faith. And he used it. And he was accepted and she wasn’t. And then in the later meeting, they hashed it all out and she was accepted. But this man had been a murderer like he had literally murdered someone and had come out of prison and had, you know, accepted Christ. And so, you know, they said to her, your own work has saved you. Heather. The council preferred a murderer to a woman. Hannah Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. It kind of shows you that being a woman is just kind of irredeemable. Yeah. You don’t get it. Sheila But here’s what I found so amazing about her story. So this was in 1994. And then I started tracing back some of the other women’s stories of getting ordained. And a bunch of them had the same situation, but it was like in 98 or in 2003, and they had very positive experiences, many of them. And so it’s like Heather took one for the team, like. She didn’t want to, she wasn’t trying to. But you know, her whole situation. And then after that, she spoke out and made a lot of recommendations for how to change that. Hannah Yeah. I was glad that her story comes towards the front of the book, because you don’t have to read the stories in order. But if you do, some of the later women when they’re describing, they’re examining councils, you can recognize the changes that Heather made. Yeah. And so it’s like it, you do see it, you know, it has improved and it has improved because of women that experience some difficult things. Sheila Yeah that was beautiful. And then. You know what, Rebecca? The internet can sometimes be a really, really terrible place. Rebecca Absolutely. Sheila I have a happy place. Rebecca We do. Sheila That is our patreon group on Facebook. It’s the place where I go where you have some encouragement. Where I just need to bounce something off of people to see if I’m crazy or not. And also where I get the best ideas for our podcasts and our blog posts. Rebecca Absolutely. And we also have a lot of fun there too. We’ve created a fantastic community where we, you know, share funny memes that we’ve seen throughout the week, and we talk about the terrible takes that we saw on Instagram. And you can go somewhere and know that you don’t have to defend your belief that women should have rights. So if you are looking for a way to support this podcast, if you love what we do and you want to give us a tangible step up, you can join our Patreon for as little as $5 a month and get access to our Facebook group, where you’ll get to join in the fun and know that you’re supporting a fantastic cause. Sheila To join our Patreon! It’s just Patreon.com/baremarriage or take a look at the link in the podcast notes. Sheila I want to read something that she wrote about her own ministry. So she was, she’s working in this hospital and she said this about her work and I’ll just quote I carry a pager at all times. And over the years I was called to crises in all departments of the hospital. The most difficult calls for me were pregnancy, infant loss and car accidents where children were involved. I attended ICU rounds and weekly rounds on the medical and surgical floors, and anyone who was in the hospital for more than nine days was also on my possible list of visits. Generally, when entering an institution, it takes a long period of time to earn acceptance, and the discipline of chaplaincy is not familiar to many. After a year and a half at the hospital, there was an emergency call one night. I could hear the nurses who were tending to the patients whispering, oh good, she’s here. She’s here, meaning Heather. Like, thank goodness Heather’s here. And you just think like, this woman just wanted to be a blessing to people in the worst moments of their lives. Yeah, but she wanted to bring Jesus into this place of immense suffering. And it cost her a lot to do that because she was accused of all these terrible motives. You just want to lord it over us. They said to her, But that’s not what it was about now. And yeah, I thought that was really beautiful. Hannah Yeah. There’s another woman towards the end of the book, I think it was maybe Marion Jamer. She also describes it. The community reception was different from the church’s response. Yeah, which I find interesting. And I’ve had that experience as well, comparing, you know, different environments. University or workplace to how it then is in the church. And it’s not like we have just an overabundance of people willing to go and, you know, be a part of these difficult moments, like if that’s something you’re interested in, step up and do it. But I don’t know, it’s just interesting that the church sometimes makes it harder for these women to make that choice, to make that sacrifice, really. Whereas in the community it’s like, oh, thank God, I get somewhere, they’re going to do it. Sheila You’re here. I actually have her story highlighted too. And, I want to read what she said. So she became a chaplain to the RCMP, which is Canada’s federal police force, and to firefighters. And she said, in some ways, I think being female has been an advantage for me. One of my mentors said, when soldiers are in danger, they cry out to two people, God and their mother. And I think because I came in as an older woman, there wasn’t some of the tension there might have been with the younger female. And she said there was less resistance to her being in ministry in the community than there was in churches. And so people actually appreciated her there because, yeah, when you’re in crisis, you want this mother figure to come alongside you. And yeah. Hannah Because there’s a need, you know, like if, if a building is burning down, you don’t care who’s throwing the water. Yeah. But kind of makes me wonder, like in the church, are we sometimes not seeing that the building is burning down? Like, why are they arguing about who throws the water? Just throw it. Sheila Yeah. And so, you know, these women were involved in all other aspects. There were also some who served as senior pastors and those are really interesting stories too. Reverend Judith Tod, was at Acadia and she was speaking and one of the women who’s featured in your book, she talked about this, this message that Judith Tod gave. And she said, one thing you’re going to come across is that if there’s a problem, usually people blame the pastor, which is unfortunate, but if it’s a woman pastor, they will say, we’re never going to call a female pastor again. But if it’s a male pastor and there’s a problem, they don’t say, we’re never going to call a male pastor again. Hannah Right? Sheila Yeah. And I think that’s true for other minority groups, too. Like if it’s an indigenous pastor or if it’s, you know, a black pastor or whatever minority pastor, you know, that comment is made. Hannah Maybe it’s that stereotype that like, you know, if you’re a minority in a different field, you’ve got so much pressure on you. You have to be twice as good just to be the baseline accepted. And, you know, you have to be phenomenal. You can’t just be average. Sheila Yes. Hannah Because you have that extra pressure on you. Sheila Yeah, yeah. And yet like, there really is a need for women in all of these spaces. And I think that by missing women’s voices and this is something that really came through in the book, we’re not doing all of the ministry that God called us to do. Right. Because if we truly are a body where every piece is needed, every member of the body is needed. In order to minister, and we all have a role, then if we exclude half the body, we’re not going to be able to do all of the ministry. Let me see. Did I write down who said this? I think Margo McDougall, who was one of the women that you followed and she said this over the last 10 or 20 years, we’ve seen more women being called into pastoral ministry. And I think that over that same time frame, we’ve heard more people talk about being wounded or abused by males. People feel more safe to talk about it. And I really think that if the messenger represents someone, you can’t hear the message from, then you won’t hear the message. So I think some of the women God has called into the pulpit are there because there are congregants and people outside the church who couldn’t hear the gospel from a man. And I think that’s really true. 00:24:04:04 – 00:24:30:19 Hannah Yeah, I also appreciate what she says. I think around that as well. Like, you know, that being said, it’s not like we’re just, women are just a replacement. But I do think in our culture, you know, if you have no background in church and you’re approached by a man, I will say even a white man and they’re a pastor, you’re going to have certain walls go up, certain assumptions. If you’re approached by a woman and she’s a pastor that immediately tells you, well, this person can’t be quite like that. Sheila Yes. 00:24:40:09 – 00:25:02:24 Hannah Like it opens up different conversations. And I think it’s Louise Hannem in the book that made that point, that because she was a woman she found in the community, she could kind of help break down some unhelpful stereotypes about church and about ministry, because she’s not what people expected a pastor to be. And so it’s like, well, maybe church is not what I thought, or maybe Jesus is not what I thought either. It’s not just coming from a certain kind of voice or a certain culture. Sheila Yeah, yeah. So I really appreciate the stories. I think it was Dianne Jukes. Hannah Oh she is such a sweetheart. Every time I read her story, I just get all warm and fuzzy. Sheila Yes, she did prison ministry. She is just an incredible woman. And, of course, the thing I love about her is that she’s from Campbellton, New Brunswick, which is a very, very tiny town in the northern part of New Brunswick. And that town is also where my husband was born. So my husband’s whole family is from Campbellton. Hannah Yeah, I just she’s like this petite woman she was so sweet to speak with. And, you know, she’s in her 70s and just describes herself doing ministry in prison with a pacemaker. And, you know, I just, I don’t know, I just think that’s so sweet. Sheila And she talked about how there had never been any female Baptist clergy in New Brunswick. And then at one point she read about a female Baptist minister, and she was like, oh my gosh, you mean I could do this? And yeah, I was like, yeah. And, you just think about the women who are opening these doors, for others and showing us that, you know, they’re, they’re paving the way. And so I love that you’ve collected these stories. I think that’s so helpful. How do you think coming from Atlantic Canada impacts a lot of this? Because for those of you who don’t know, Atlantic Canada is its own entity. Like, it’s, I don’t even know how you describe it. The pace of life is a little slower. It’s less urban than some of the other parts of Canada. The background tends to be very Scottish rather than English, like in a lot of other parts of Canada where there’s the British Isles influence, there’s more English, but it seems like all the Scots stayed in Atlantic Canada. Hannah Right. Sheila And then of course, you have more recent immigrants too. So it’s not like it’s all Scottish. But then and then in New Brunswick, you also have the real French influence from Quebec. So it’s very, it’s just a different entity in Canada. Like, do you think that it’s made it more open to women? Hannah Well, I will say I only lived in Atlantic Canada for a year. I’ve done most of my studies by distance. So my impression of it is from someone from the western provinces. And I have found it very interesting that the Baptist denomination and just some of the historical denominations, to me, have a bigger presence there, just there were more of them. They were established earlier on, in Western Canada, the Canadian Baptists and Western Canada churches are few and far between. I mean, we have a decent denomination size as well, but they’re not as close knit. People don’t all know each other. You know, you’re not crossing paths every time you go to the next town over. And so in some ways, there’s a lot more history It feels and tradition, in the churches of Atlantic Canada that I’ve interviewed and kind of got to learn about, but in other ways it surprised me because I’ve, I’ve found them also in some ways more socially progressive or whatever you want to call it. I wonder if that has to do with they have a historic black population and have had to deal with their history around the treatment of minorities, maybe differently than Western Canada has, I don’t know, but I know coming to school there from Western Canada, and I did one degree in western Canada, then went out there and I was surprised because the people seemed more traditional and then they would like, surprise me, I guess, with their with their views or whatever. But, for example, feminism, when I went to school in Saskatchewan, I felt like if you were to ask a class of university students, you know, are you a feminist? I felt at that time that almost nobody would dare not raise their hand, because it would be almost like admitting you’re a misogynist. It was just such a like, of course, everyone’s a feminist. Even if you’re not, you wouldn’t admit it. Yeah, that question was actually asked in a classroom, of a Bachelor of Education degree I did in eastern Canada. And there was like one person or two people in the room that raised their hand. And it wasn’t that the views of the people were different. It just that word obviously carried some different baggage in a different setting. So I don’t know if it’s the setting that makes a difference. I think. I think the women are often going into churches that have more of a traditional history, and yet it’s kind of surprising. They seem to have more acceptance in the CABC than the CWC does. It seems like it’s still more of an issue, and there’s fewer women pastors out west, but, yeah, I’m not sure if you’re probably more familiar with Atlantic Canada. Sheila I love Atlantic Canada. And you think about, you know, the ways that Atlantic Canada shows up in the news, like, like Halifax at the Swissair disaster or of course, Newfoundland at 911. Atlantic Canada is just kind of a place where people just do what needs to get done, you know, and they don’t really argue about it that much. They just kind of do what needs to get done. And there’s much more of a community spirit. I think. And, Hannah And I think there’s a lot of really small churches, but because they go back so far, like they want to do what it will take to survive, and that might be part of it. It’s like we need a pastor at our church of 40 people. If it’s a woman that comes, then we have, you know, maybe there’s less resistance to it, whereas out here, maybe it can be a little more cheesy, I don’t know. Sheila Yeah. So anyway, it’s really interesting. But I love the themes of how, you know, the women didn’t start out to try to make a gendered point or to be gender warriors. They just want to serve Jesus. And then people kept putting up obstacles in their way, and they had to fight those obstacles. But by doing so, they really did open up opportunities for the next generations. And I think it was your final story: a woman was ordained, and she was the first woman who had been ordained in Atlantic Baptists, whose mother was also ordained. And I thought that was neat. Hannah Yeah. Yeah, we very much can think of, you know, like the pastor’s son that grows up and becomes a pastor. And I just love that it’s, you know, the pastor’s daughter. They pick her up faster. Sheila Yeah, but all of them, they just wanted to serve Jesus. And they felt called to serve. And for whatever reason, whether it was military chaplaincy or hospital chaplaincy or doing work in the mission fields, you know, it led to ordination and, or being a senior pastor and, yeah. And then they got to serve their gifts, these, their gifts. And when you look at everything that they, that God did through them, it’s like, that wouldn’t have happened had they not answered that call. So if you’re out there and you feel called to serve, you know, just I think this is a great book to read to inspire you and to see what can happen when you listen to that call wherever you are. Hannah The book is about, you know, women in ministry, obviously. But I will say, you know, I’m really hoping myself I don’t know about my other, co editors, but myself I hope that men and women that read this book are just encouraged in their own walks, because as I mentioned, like I find reading these stories, it lowers the bar in some ways. It lowers my ideas of what I need to be, or what expectations I need to meet in order to be useful to God in order to make a difference in the kingdom. And when I read these stories like for me, it’s less about this debate and it’s more just like, wow, look how Christ use, you know, Christ use this woman’s passion with dance ministry, Christ, use this woman’s love of the hockey arena, you know, whatever the case may be. Sheila Yes. Hannah And you can just see yourself a little more easily and see that, like, oh, what I do just the way I do it can be ministry and can be used by God. And so I hope it will encourage people, to embrace their own gifts and to. Yeah, not to be afraid to serve. Sheila Amen. Well thank you Hannah. And the book again is Called To Serve. Does it have subtitles? I never remember the subtitles. Hannah The subtitle is Stories of Atlantic Baptist Women in Ministry. And you can find the book and the podcast at CalledtoServe.ca. Sheila Okay. And we’ll put those links in the podcast notes. Thanks for joining us. Hannah Yeah. Thank you very much. Sheila When it came time to tell my daughters about sex and puberty, I did a really bad job Rebecca Yeah I mean, not your strongest suit I’m going to be honest. And your job was to teach women about sex at that point. Sheila I got a lot better as they got older. But you and your sister Katie and I were talking a couple of years ago, and you were joking with me about how bad a job I did, and I said, okay, well, then you do a better one. And you guys got together and you created a course called The Whole Story. A video course where you and Katie tell the girls about sex and puberty. And then there’s discussion questions and activities that parents can do with their kids to solidify the lesson and make sure that you are the one talking to your kids, too. Rebecca And after resounding positive feedback from the girls version, we decided to add a boys version too. So don’t worry, moms and dads of boys, we’ve got you covered. So if you have kids from ages about 10 to 16, you should check out the Whole Story. Don’t put off having these conversations because if you don’t have them now, someone else will have them with your kid. This is a conversation that we want to help you have. Feeling empowered, not awkward. Sheila And the link to the whole story is in the podcast. I am so excited about this conversation with Doctor Adam Harbaugh. Hello, Adam. Adam Well, Sheila, great to be with you today. Sheila Yeah. You know, you sent me an email. I don’t know how many months ago, and you said I just wrote. I just finished my doctoral thesis and dissertation, on women in ministry and how churches can change. And I took a look at it, and I took a look at your consultancy program that you’ve just started. And it’s amazing. And I am so excited. Okay. I want everyone listening to get the vision of what we can do to change churches because you’ve created this, this program that you can take to elders boards that could help walk them through the process of questioning whether women can be in leadership and how do we move towards, you know, a greater, more, more accurate representation of Christ and his church in our church? I think it’s amazing. Adam Yeah. It’s, you know, my heart and the hope really was that an elder board would be open and receptive to that kind of a conversation. And if they are, let’s take that deep dive into the history and the culture and, the biblical beliefs and interpretations behind, you know, why we practice things the way that we do right now. But if there’s an openness to change, like what is the pathway to get there. Sheila So I want to set the stage for people on how you got started in this. So you were working as a pastor in a church. You weren’t the senior pastor right. Like you were like there were multiple pastors and yeah. Adam At the time I was the central ministries pastor. So it was, you know, a relatively large multi-site church. And so my responsibility as central was like, what are all of the standard ministry procedures and kind of a DNA of the ministry of the church implemented across campuses. So that was the role that I was in. And so I had a front row seat to raise up leaders within the congregation. And you know, newsflash, like most of the lay leaders in the church are women. And so as we were mobilizing their gifts to be in alignment with the mission of the church, more often than not, there was just this disconnect between, hey, we’re raising up all these women leaders, and yet we also have these messages behind the scenes like, oh, well, you can’t actually be a pastor at this church and you can’t serve on the elder board because those roles are restricted to men only. And as I wanted to then ask questions and press into the underlying beliefs there, and you know why and how all of this got written into our Constitution and bylaws. What I really found was a hesitancy to want to, like for people on the board, especially to want to have those conversations. And so it really just revealed kind of a very, you know, a very thin theological layer for the beliefs behind why we practiced that way. And then just an unwillingness to want to even have a conversation. Sheila Yeah, I think there’s this belief that as soon as we have the conversation, the church is going to split. And so by not having the conversation, the church won’t split. But what I have found is that if you don’t have that conversation, all that happens is that the issue is still simmering. Adam Absolutely Sheila And what happens is that the people that want justice end up leaving. And I look at the two churches that we have left, you know, over the last two decades for those reasons. And they’re not doing well, like they’re they’ve shrunk. They’ve lost a lot of the really dynamic people. And yes, there wasn’t like one mass exodus where there was a split, but I don’t think things would have gone any differently if they had talked about the like. They still would have it like they still lost the people. And all that’s left now is that in one case, it’s really the shell of a former church. Adam Yeah, it’s the fear of the unknown. And we know some of the talking points that they want to rest on. You know, we just want to be unified and this would be divisive or disruptive, but in my experience. Right. They fail to recognize the disruption that was already existing because of the current approach. And yeah when they’re not willing to even have a conversation about that or drill a little bit deeper that that was really, really challenging. And that really was the catalyst for me wanting to take the deep dive, you know, not just on the theology behind it, but how do we take a practical journey with people who have certain beliefs that they hold so strongly? And yet we can see the frontline effects of the way that it’s not just damaging women in their leadership capacity in the church, but it’s damaging the church and its mission as a whole. Sheila Yeah, exactly. And I think that’s what I appreciate about your project, is that you’re looking not just at because and we’ve had a lot of that on our podcast too, is what First Timothy 2 says and what’s the significance of all the women in Romans 16? And, you know, how can we better understand first Corinthians 11, like we’ve talked about all of that, but if we’re actually going to see change in church, there’re two elements that perhaps are missing when we only talk about how we look at those passages. And one is, how do we engage people in a helpful, productive way to have this conversation? And then the next one is if we decide we do want to move forward, how do we even do that? How do we create the structures? How do we look at the bylaws? How do we change the whole governance structure? So those are two really, really, really big questions that often haven’t been handled well. And what I’ve seen more often than not is that when and this is certainly my story too, is that when people want to see women in leadership, they try to talk to the pastor, they don’t get anywhere. And so they feel like the only way to do that is to move to a church that already has women in leadership. And so we just don’t see a lot of churches that have male only leadership changing. Like, have you seen that happen very much? Adam It is very rare. And what I would say, you know, the other component that, in the heart behind me wanting to dive into that project was the recognition that, like, this is going to be really difficult for people and it is going to have elements of disruption, but the heart is that we want to journey through it really well in a healthy way for the sake of the church, because we we’ve heard way too many stories where the church splits and people leave because they’re upset and they’re not heard and all of those things. And so for me, it was a matter of can we model this and do this in a healthy way, where hopefully there are some, you know, big changes and outcomes on the other side of it. But we walked through it as brothers and sisters in Christ. Sheila Right. Adam So now having kind of said that that’s the ideal. Sadly, I have not seen that and lived out in reality very well. Now I’ve got a whole long story of, you know, my own journey over the past three and a half years. Sadly, I’m no longer at that church where this project was born out of, but interestingly, since I have left, they actually did make a move to affirm a woman as a pastor, which was significant for them. But then there’s if I’m honest, though, there’s part of me kind of sitting from the outside looking in. I feel like they just kind of fast tracked the decision and didn’t really journey through the process to recognize and acknowledge that these were beliefs that the church held, and they very intentionally held that line for 20 or 30 years. And so good for them for making the change. But then I was just disappointed that they really didn’t walk through. That changed in a very healthy way. They just kind of did it in a rushed way. And, no acknowledgment of the hurt that the church had caused in many, many women’s lives over the period of years where they were biblically restricting women. But then they just kind of got on stage and said, well, hey, actually our bylaws and constitution would have allowed us to do this all like the whole time, which is true. But again, this there was not an acknowledgment of all of the underlying hurt. Sheila Right. Okay. So let me see if I’ve got this story straight. So you’re heading up, you know, the director of ministries. You know that we have to examine this issue. And so you decided to have a workshop with stakeholders. You invite 16 people. Yeah. Five say they’re going to come and one doesn’t. So you end up with a workshop of 4. Adam Like, yeah, I can’t remember the exact number. Is that that’s roughly accurate? And you know when you do have these conversations in a restrictive church setting, I had to go and get all the approvals, right. Like, let’s talk to the senior pastor and the chair of the elder board. And I got the green light. But, you know, came with the caveat that, well, these conversations have to stay quiet and under wraps. And so I’m like, okay, right. Like if that’s the way that it is, I will play by the rules. But that means when I invite the elder board and their wives to participate, I actually need them to participate. And so that’s where you see, like the 16 people that were invited. I mean, these were all, you know, leaders and elders and things like that in the church. And it had to be them because I wasn’t going to cast the net really wide across the congregation. And yeah, I think I only had four of them show up. And yeah, one of them who was the first to say yes, and he pulled out the day before and was like, oh, this is just too divisive I can’t be a part of it. Sheila Right? Yes. I love how it’s divisive to ask if women can be in leadership, but it’s not divisive to just say that they’re not. That’s the thing that bothers me. Adam Yeah. Yeah. I mean, whatever the status quo is, I mean, they were comfortable with it. And you know what’s funny? I mean, that workshop was just the beginning of the project. It was purely exploratory, right. Like, let’s get a sense and an understanding of like, what are the theological beliefs underneath this and how did we get here culturally and biblically and all of these things. And so that was really disheartening when there wasn’t even a willingness to engage those exploratory conversations. Sheila Yeah. I remember when, in 1993, Keith and I were attending an Alliance Church and we asked that they explore the idea of having women as elders, like, we just start a group that meets together, just talk about it. Look at what the Bible says. Not that we wanted to have. Like we didn’t ask for them to put women in as elders. We just asked, can we just talk? Yeah. And the senior leadership voted it down. And that to me, we ended up leaving that church because like, if you’re not even willing to talk about it, then. Wow. So okay, so one of the things I found interesting that you said, in your dissertation and your dissertation is, if anyone can read it, I’m going to put a link to it. It’s super interesting. So yeah. Adam It’s out there. People can look. Sheila Yeah. It’s not like this 600 page dense thing with tons and like it’s not like that anyway. Yeah. You said another critical insight from the workshop was how even though the group estimated that 60% of the congregation would like to see the church affirm women 30% as being indifferent and only around 10% opposed, it was recognized that those 10% would be highly vocal and disruptive in their opposition. Adam I think you know, when you when you study like, you know, change management and things like that, you know, we know that I mean, those estimates are very much in a line with, you know, the challenges that you’ll face percentage wise within, you know, whatever group of people you’re trying to bring, change to. And so none of that was surprising, but it does just highlight the fact that we really were allowing the fear of the 10% vocal people to prevent us from, you know, even being willing to go into the conversation at all. Sheila Yeah. I think there’s an element of shame in here, too, because what the 10% tends to say and what they accuse you of is, well, you’re just ignoring the Bible. And even if you know, you’re no, like, even if you know that that’s not what you’re doing. Like, for me, when people say that there’s always a little bit of am I like you start like, am I? Am I just pushing this forward because this is what I want to believe? And yeah, there’s that. Like they are taking the moral high ground, right? Like we are standing by the Bible. And it’s very hard for those of us who are advocating for full inclusion to say the same thing with the same amount of enthusiasm, because we’re going against the status quo. Right? So we can’t just like, I mean, we could we could say, well, we’re the one standing by the Bible and you’re not, but it’s harder to do. We know there’s so much nuance to all of these arguments. Right. And so when other people are just accusing you of ignoring the Bible, I think there is that element of shame that goes on, too. Adam Yeah. That was one of the baseline things that, you know, I realized that had to be established that I know this, the desire to have this conversation is because I have a very high view of Scripture. And, and who of us don’t like to learn things from Scripture that maybe we’ve never seen before. We never heard it talk that way. I mean, I, for one, love those kinds of opportunities, but maybe that’s not for everybody. And they just want to know and believe what they were told. From, you know, being raised in their particular church or whatever it is. But yeah, there’s this: there’s so much more beauty to the whole biblical story than just kind of cherry picking a handful of verses and building a whole restrictive theology out of it. Sheila Speaking of those percentages, I don’t know what the Alliance Church is in different districts in Canada or in the United States. But in the Eastern District of Canada in order to have women as elders, you are allowed to have women as pastors or elders, but your church has to vote 66% to allow it. There was a vote several years ago at a church in Ottawa, a very large church where they voted by 62 or 63%. So you know that’s really high but they didn’t cross that 66% threshold and this after going through a process of looking into scripture and everything and I just thought how heartbreaking that is. In order to have women in leadership we have to cross this huge threshold in some of these denominations. And that denomination in particular was such a controversial thing at the national level they kind of put it on the individual churches. They weren’t willing to have the fight at the national level. So they just ensured that every single church had to have the fight. And it’s really difficult. Adam Yeah, it really is. And that’s where I mean, you know, the Constitution and the bylaws of the individual churches, whether they’re part of a larger denomination or not, those documents have become so formative to those communities that that’s the kind of challenge and sideways energy that has to be poured into things and topics like this. And, you know, we’d love to think that there would just be a better, easier way. And again, that was part of my heart and desire behind developing, you know, this DM project. But, you know, when the outcome is what it was, it just, you know, at times it reminded me like, okay, Jesus was the one who said, you can’t pour new wine into old wineskins. As much as I would like to believe that, like because you love the community that you’re a part of and you want to see this change and to become more biblically, aligned, that you want to pour some fresh wine into the existing structures and churches and denominations. And that’s really hard when they’re not willing to or you don’t pass the right percentage threshold, like, what do you do? Do you trudge on or do you go, you know, try to take your new wine and start something new? And in some ways that’s something I’m still wrestling with. Sheila Yeah, yeah. So after this workshop you developed, for your DM program, reduction of Ministry. This workshop that you can do with elders boards, which takes them through. It’s a six session workshop. And I found it really fascinating. And I, we won’t go through everything because it’s too much material, and you can read it. It’s easy, but I want to look at just a few quick things. So in session one, what you’re asking them to do is reimagine so, you know, reimagine what it would look like, what church would look like if we did have women in leadership. And one of the activities you have them do is a quadrant. And I want to read this out because I think this is fascinating. So you ask them to imagine, you know, how the changes that we’re making or not making any of these changes are going to affect four groups of people, people under your care in the church, people outside your church that you’re trying to reach, people who currently think you’re getting it wrong to restrict women, and people who believe you’re currently getting it right to restrict women. And the problem that I have when I look at a lot of churches, they’re trying to restrict women. Is that the only people they care about are the people who believe you’re currently getting it right to restrict women, because if you’re someone in their church who thinks that they’re getting it wrong, well, they don’t actually care. They’re just like, well, you’re just not being biblical. They’re very judgmental towards those people, and then they don’t seem to take into account the, the, the, the big element of we are losing our witness. Like when I, when I left one of the churches, we wrote a letter and I said, we cannot invite any of our friends to this church because my husband is in a profession where all of his colleagues are female. Adam Yeah. Sheila And none of them would handle being in a church that doesn’t let women be in leadership. That would be so far beyond them, they would think you’re in the dark ages. Adam You know, like, oh, that’s the good news of Jesus. No thank you. Sheila Yeah. And like, so we can’t bring our friends to this church. Yeah. Like we, how are we supposed to evangelize when we can’t bring anybody that we know to this church? Because we know how they will take that? Adam Absolutely. I mean, at the heart of it, one of the things that sparked this, and you even used the word inviting, right? The church that I was part of our mission statement was inviting people to know and follow Jesus. And that was exactly it. Like my wife is a professor at a local college, right? I mean, her colleagues, one of them was invited and showed up, and the second phase sniffed out like, oh, you don’t have any women pastors. And the elder board can only be men. And it was like, no, I don’t want anything to do with this. And that’s really it’s a hard pill to swallow when you’re so bought into the mission of the church and knowing that Jesus had something far beyond what we can even imagine in terms of, utilizing the gifts that he has given and entrusted to his people. And so, yeah, that, for me, was a big thing that sparked just. Okay, we’ve got, this is at odds with the mission of the church. So we’ve got to talk about it. Sheila Yeah. And where are people receptive, like, did they get that? Adam Sadly, no. Because when we think of those four quadrants, right. The majority of people in church leadership seem to really just be locked into the people under their care. And the majority is probably going to be restrictive if they’re in a restrictive church. Right. And so, I think part of what’s intertwined with all of this is, you know, so much with the current model of the American church is that our senior pastors are typically shepherds and teachers. And so their heart is very much just for like, we don’t want to rock the boat, we gotta hold the status quo. And we’re just here to teach and gently shepherd this congregation. And so when you inject elements of the conversation and say, hey, there’s some, there’s, you know, disruptive things that we need to talk about so that we can better align, this mission and hopefully this movement of people for kingdom efforts like that just seems to make them really uncomfortable. And it doesn’t align with what you probably called them to be. And so I’ve seen them just have a tendency to shy away from it so that we can keep everybody happy and shepherded. Sheila Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I think that’s such a good exercise. I really, I really and that wasn’t the only thing in session one. That’s just something I wanted to highlight. In session two, you talk about the cultural mess that led up to the Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood and how this whole concept of gender roles really came out, like in church, really came out of a response to what was going on in society. And the church decided to go a certain way, and that wasn’t a foregone conclusion. Right. And this is what I’ve been talking about for years. So like in the 80s in Canada, I really believed we were moving towards egalitarianism. It really felt like we were. And then everything all got shut down all of a sudden, because of the huge conservative resurgence in the SBC in the States, which then impacted Christian publishing and everything. Adam Yeah, all of those things are very intertwined. And that’s why it’s necessary to go back to history. And I would also say that, I mean, the scope of this project, you know, you can read a lot of different people that are putting out great information about women in, ministry leadership, in church history all the way back from the early church through medieval times and all of those things. But, you know, the reality is, most people inside a congregation and even a lay elder board like they that’s not on their radar at all. But what they do know is kind of the scope of their lived experience. And so the focus of the project was really kind of the last four generations. And so that gets us back into World War two and some of those things that were very disruptive. And then you know, you’re right post-World War Two like the gender role argument and those different roles, like they were really, being contested in American culture because during World War two, so many women got the experience of, oh, I don’t have to just be a housewife. Now my country needs me, and I’m working in factories and I’m doing all of this work that previously I was culturally restricted from. And as they got that taste of what could be in the ways that they could contribute and had gifts and passions and probably lit up their lives for something more than just what was inside their house in a very limited scope, of their role and responsibility. It began to push those things culturally. Right. So that’s where we see the women’s empowerment movement and all of those things that weren’t just outside of the church. They were leaking into the churches. And, you know, because of our desire to be faithful to Scripture, what I see is that the guys who wanted to keep women restricted and be true to Scripture, that was the whole story in the development of the biblical manhood and womanhood. And, you know, to me, any good scholar, like if you’re going to Scripture with a preconceived agenda, then you’re going to be able to find the things that are going to reinforce your agenda. And frankly, like those are the messages that I heard about women and their role in the home, in the church, in the world growing up. And so for a period of my life, I bought into it. Right? Because that’s what was taught to me and reinforced through Scripture. But man, as the years go on and you dive more into Scripture and you look at the big picture and then have that frontline experience of like, hey, my calling is to help empower the church, God’s people, to put their gifts to use for the kingdom. And yet we then communicate, oh, but you can’t do this. You know, that discrepancy for me. It was like, now that doesn’t make sense. I got to dive much deeper into that. And for those who are willing to take the journey, right. So many people have changed their minds along the way. Sheila Yeah. And I love how you bring like, hey, you put all this in this historical context before you actually look at the biblical argument. So you’re saying, like, you know, the church was actually being reactionary. You know, we weren’t saying, oh, look, look what the Bible says. Oh, look, the Bible says women need to be under men. So that’s what we’re going to teach. Though they weren’t going to the Bible first. They were seeing what culture was doing and they were reacting against it. Adam And that’s where the argument today is like, oh, you’re just, you know, capitulating to the culture by empowering women. And it’s like, no, absolutely not. That’s I mean, that’s not it. I’m talking about 40 or 50 years ago. And that’s exactly what happened. And so when you think about reimagining, right, like whether 50 years ago or today, I would much rather see the church kind of read the signs of the times and know how to respond. And to me, that response is, never to go to the culture and say, oh, you know, you’re getting it wrong. This is the biblical way to do it. But like, what if we approach the culture and say, wow, I’m sensing this desire for more than what you currently experience? Man, can we just affirm that desire? And let me tell you about Jesus who affirmed and empowered women in the first century in a way that would blow us out of the water even today. Right? Like Jesus always has more for us than we even think. And so why not lean into those innate desires that people have and equip them and unleash them, and empower them to live into all that Jesus has for them? Like that would be my argument for the church today. No matter what the topic is, take whatever the culture is communicating to us and say, man, you think it’s this? But like Jesus takes things way beyond you know what you desire in your heart, so let’s follow him. Sheila I love that you know, I think, too, one of the problems with being reactionary is the church often has is we have this idea that whatever the culture does is wrong. And so if the church is going to be right, we have to stand against culture. But then what ends up happening is the culture often makes changes which have their roots in Christianity, like the change towards more justice, you know, an end to oppression, more inclusion, etc. is actually a very Christian thing. But so then as the culture looks more and more like Jesus, then the church looks less and less like Jesus. When they’re standing against the culture. It’s just crazy. Adam We’re very much in the middle of that. Over the past ten years, I would say. Sheila Yeah, yeah, okay. There’s this funny thing you have. This is just a tiny bit of your session two, but I thought it was such a good illustration. You talked about how, in the 1930s to 1950s, there were ads. Ads used doctors to sell cigarettes, you know, and so it was the juxtaposition of this, this person who was supposed to represent health, selling death and then your courage that you’re encouraging churches to ask, are we doing that? With women. And so I love the way that you bring in all these other things. Okay. Sessions three and four get into the biblical message of women and the biblical metaphor of us as a body, and what that means for how we should see women. You get into the idea of roles and offices and how these ideas of pastor and elder are not in Scripture, in the way that we think, you know, Bishop, etc.. And, and so the fact that they’re saying women need to be excluded from certain offices when there was no office of pastor in Scripture is kind of crazy. Adam So yeah, right. It’s like men, you know, begin to dive into and study all of that. And there’s no crystal clear answer about all those things. And so, I don’t like labels. So anytime we’re talking about something, it really is like we need to understand what we mean by these words. And so whether pastor or elder or bishop or whatever it is, those are generally very the way that we’re using them is very culturally tied to what we know. And so to again, try to reimagine and re, kind of reorient us around, what do these terms mean? And if they mean this and can mean this in our particular circumstances, then like, we can help give them a biblical definition for ways that they work in our environments today. Sheila Right? Okay. So session one was encouraging people to reimagine the need for this work. Session two was looking at the culture. Session three and four are the Bible. And now we’re working in session five and six. You’re really charting a course for change. And in session five, you talk about adaptive change, which is more than just a small shift in approach, but a fundamental shift in the underlying beliefs. And I really want to highlight what you said about Acts 10 because I think this is a perfect metaphor. In Acts 10 Peter gets this dream of a sheet being lowered and all these animals, and God says, go and eat. And Peter says, no, I can’t possibly do that. Yeah. And God says, no, like, go eat you know, and you wrote in that moment, Peter was faced with the choice to either hold on to what he was certain about or to align his beliefs with what God was revealing to him. And thankfully, Peter was obedient to the leading of the Holy Spirit as he changed his beliefs and behavior to align with God’s intentions. That salvation extended to the Gentiles also. And I think that’s fascinating. Like, I’ve never I’ve never seen those in parallel before, but yeah, like that Acts 10 passage can be used so well to explain to people that Peter was totally sure he was serving God. Adam Yeah and rightly so. And yet we dog Peter so much, right? Like so many times he is denying God. He’s denying Jesus. Like he’s doing all these things that give him a bad rap. And yet, man, like he nails it in this situation when probably the stakes are highest because it’s a clear instruction to like, hey, Jesus is doing something fresh and new and different. And so you got to be willing to let go of your traditions and what you know was kosher and appropriate for you to do, and how you were called to live in the past to embrace this new vision. And so he was willing to do that. And also good for him, because it was the work of the Holy Spirit in Cornelius and his entire family. It generated the argument. And then the move towards, Acts 15, where, you know, the, the powers that be had to put their heads together to decide, are we going to embrace this or not? And they’re like, hey, if it’s good to the Holy Spirit, who are we to get in the way of that? Yeah. So we could sure use a little bit more of that approach to all of our biblical arguments, like, can we follow the leading of the Holy Spirit? Sheila Yeah, I love that so much. So, if you have, you’re willing to give these workshops to any church that wants them. All the information is online. I’m going to put a link, please, if your church wants to go through this process, maybe you are a senior pastor and you’re pastoring a church that is complementary and but you really want to lead in a way that is gentle but encourages people to think, this is a great, a great, way to conceive of it. And I’m going to put the link in the podcast notes for you to contact Adam. But after all of this, you said in your dissertation that you just don’t think, you don’t know that it’s possible to make this kind of change from like a second or third chair. You really need to be at the top to explain that a little bit. Adam Well, yeah. What’s challenging is the role that I was in, it was really responsible for so many aspects of policy that brought it up against the Constitution and bylaws of the church. So whether it was membership or approaches to global missions, like any and all of these kinds of things, when I would run into aspects of that, they were hindering our mission. You know, these were not just simple changes, because I had to work with and through the elder board. But in that environment, like, right, I’m not the top guy. I report to somebody else on staff and the board. Like, they really need to hear from the senior pastor. Like, yes, this is something that we need to dive into. Otherwise it can be easily discredited because, hey, the status quo has been working well enough for us. Why? Why would we rock the boat, with that or anything? And so having been in a couple of different environments where it was like a second or third chair, even though I had responsibilities for those areas, I didn’t have permission to press into those deeper seated things that needed to change. And so, again, doing this work and providing this framework of a conversation, it really would require a senior pastor and an elder board who are at least humble enough and courageous enough to have a conversation and see where the Holy Spirit might lead them. You know, I’m going in just with a goal to like, let’s have a conversation because you might learn some things that you didn’t know before. And it’s through that Jesus wants to lead and guide you and your church towards some change. I can be here to help you navigate through that in a healthy way, but at the end of the day, the onus is on the senior pastor and the board who has to make that first call to take a journey to change bylaws and constitutions and things like that. Sheila Yeah. So do you see hope when you look around the church today? Where do you get hope? Adam I get hope when there is a willingness to kind of let go of past traditions and status quo and step into where Jesus is working. Right. And so, I tell people all the time, like, I think, you know, Jesus is way more disruptive than we want to allow him to be. Sheila Oh, yes. Adam And so we have to be willing to step into some disruption. Then we’ve got to be willing to break down some walls and some barriers to reach people. In a culture today that’s very different than it was even 20 years ago. Right. And so we’re not willing to take different approaches and do different things and be people of Jesus, people who are disruptors ourselves. Then there’s less hope for the church. But if we’re willing to do that, that’s where I find hope, because I think you see Jesus showing up in ways that don’t make sense, because it’s kind of like he’s drawn outside the lines of what we have kind of established. Sheila Yeah, yeah. That’s great. Well, once again, I’m going to put some links to, to Doctor Harbaugh’s, I don’t know what you call it to call it a seminar. What do you call it? Adam Yeah. Succession workshop. Yeah. Just, kind of a guided conversation through the biblical, historical, all of those cultural aspects, of why we believe what we believe. And can we reimagine a better way for the sake of the future? Sheila Okay. So I’m going to put those in the podcast notes as well as the dissertation so you can read that. Thank you. Adam, I really appreciate this conversation. Adam Yeah. Thanks so much for having me on, Sheila. It’s been great. Sheila I think the big thing that I want everyone to take away from this show today is that let’s not be afraid to dream big. You know, let’s not be afraid to envision a church where men and women truly can serve side by side as Jesus is the one that we run after. And that’s possible. There are churches that are already doing it. And right now, as you listen to this podcast, we’ve just spent some time in Atlantic Canada for our simulcast events at the beginning of this month of October. And yeah, we’ve just had a great time with friends in Atlantic Canada, And that could happen anywhere. So we’ve got resources for the book Called to Serve. Resources for how you can start this discussion going into your church. And they’re all going to be in the podcast notes. So we’ll see you again next week of the Bare Marriage Podcast. Bye bye.