How Many Christian Men Are Sexually Safe Husbands?

by | Mar 21, 2022 | Men's Corner, Pornography | 367 comments

How Many Christian Men Meet Criteria for Sexually Safe Husband
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How many Christian husbands see sex in a healthy way?

We know that sexual sin, and porn use, and objectification of women are rampant. But it’s not everywhere. So how many guys aren’t affected by this?

In February and March I’m posting several “number of the day” updates, where we share a nugget from our surveys of 25,000 men and women. We’ve looked at foreplay problems; how many men actually lust; how many people have sex but don’t feel close; and more.

One of the challenges that we have with our survey data is figuring out what questions to ask. We have a treasure trove of data from all of our surveys (six at last count), and there’s so much that we can glean from it. But we have to think of the question first.

We have a Patreon group where people who support our research and want to support us branching out in ways that we can’t monetize, and it’s got a really active private Facebook group. (Our Patreon starts at $5 a month! You can join us, too!). 

As I was getting ready to do this series, we asked our patrons what questions they’d want to know. And one woman piped up and asked, “how many guys are actually safe?”

Great question! But then we had to figure out how to measure it. 

Joanna and I thought about a couple of scenarios, and we decided to look for men who fit this criteria:

Our Criteria for Men Who Are Sexually Safe

  1. He doesn’t watch porn
  2. He doesn’t choose a lustful option in any of the potentially lustful situations we presented
  3. He doesn’t  believe the obligation sex message (so he doesn’t believe he’s entitled to his wife’s body)
  4. He makes his wife’s pleasure a priority

We could have chosen other things–like whether or not his wife reached orgasm, but that one is not entirely dependent on him. She may not reach orgasm because of sexual trauma or some of the things she’s internalized (quite common, as we found in The Great Sex Rescue). So we decided to stick to these four markers.

And when you run that data, here what we find:

%

Okay, so that’s rather sobering, isn’t it?

Only a third of Christian husbands would fall into our sexually safe categories. 

This is largely because 49.6% of men use porn in some way today, so that takes out half of men right from the start. But there’s also a significant number of men who don’t use porn but who still objectify women, either by believing they are entitled to sex; lusting after other women; or acting as if sex is all about them.

Let me repeat that–the problems all boil down to seeing women as objects.

All of our criteria objectify women in some way. Either a guy is using porn, which means he’s consuming images of women for his own gratification, or he’s treating his wife and the women around him as objects who exist for his gratification.

This means that he has believed a message about sex that isn’t biblical, and is, indeed, evil. It is evil to use another for your own gratification without concern for them, and yet many, many men feel that they are entitled to do so, and even that they are being Christian when they do so. They have been taught through our Christian resources that men naturally lust (Every Man’s Battle); that they need sex in a way that women will never understand (Love & Respect and more); that their needs for sex supersede women’s need for just about anything else (see Kevin Leman’s take on postpartum sexual favors, for instance).

They’ve been taught their whole lives in church that men need sex while women need emotional connection, and many of these guys have channeled all of their needs for connection into sex. When she says no to sex, it feels as if the world is crashing down, because they’ve never been taught how to have real relationships. And they’ve been taught that God actually intends for them to sexualize their emotional needs.

We showed repeatedly in The Great Sex Rescue how certain teachings about sex wreck sex for women and for couples, and now in The Good Guy’s Guide to Great Sex we have the evidence that these teachings wreck sex for men too. We need to start teaching about sex not as an entitlement for men and an obligation for women, but instead as something which God designed to be MUTUAL, INTIMATE, and PLEASURABLE FOR BOTH.

What if you’re NOT the problem with your sex life?

What if the messages that you’ve been taught have messed things up–and what if there’s a way to escape these toxic teachings?

It’s time for a Great Sex Rescue.

Can we put a positive spin on this at all?

I think there are a few positive things we can say if we look at this data.

1. Most men who use porn do so only rarely.

Guys got an automatic “fail” if they used porn at all, but 52% of guys who do use porn do so only rarely. And we found porn use has a real dose-response effect, meaning the more you use it, the more negative effects it has. Guys who use porn rarely don’t have the same negative effects on their sex lives and marriages as guys who use it daily or weekly, although they do have negative effects (and that’s why we included them in the unsafe category. We should also note that any porn use is also objectifying real people and contributing to sex trafficking, and should not be tolerated).

And we also found that when guys quit porn, and quit any obligation sex message, their sexual and marital satisfaction improves to almost the same extent as if they had never used it (those who quit before marriage get the biggest bump).

Considering that most married men who use porn only do so rarely, we would hope that this could be seen as something that men could work on and achieve victory at.

2. When you look at those who don’t use porn, about two thirds don’t appear to objectify women.

Because almost 50% of married evangelical men use porn to some extent, and because we excluded these guys from the safe category automatically, we really were working with only 50% of guys, and not 100%. So when we look at the remaining 50% of men who could have been safe, 67% of them were.

They don’t show signs of objectifying women or thinking that they are entitled to sex.

So that’s good! And it does show that porn use is the main driver of men not being sexually safe for women.

What’s the take home message about how to foster healthy attitudes towards sex?

The church needs a better message around porn, because what we’re doing isn’t working. We’ve been calling it a sin, and it is, sure–but this way of talking about it doesn’t necessarily help.

What We Get Wrong about Lust

Porn is not just a sin because now men have lost their purity; it’s a sin against women. It’s a sin against the women in the porn; it’s a sin because it teaches you to see women as objects. We need to start explaining that the victims of porn are women, not just men.

We also need to help guys understand that trying harder to quit isn’t enough; they need to get real about why they’re using porn in the first place.

These books can also help guys if they’re struggling with porn:

And then we simply need to get rid of the obligation sex message.

Anything that sees sex as an entitlement for men and obligation for women changes the very nature of sex. It can’t be intimate if one person’s needs matter more than another’s. It can’t be mutual if one person’s desires outweigh someone else’s. Sex is about two people joining together; it is not about one person using another. And that means that we simply have to talk about sex in a way that honors women. Otherwise women will never, ever be safe.

Right now the church isn’t doing that. Instead of dealing with the fact that the evangelical approach to sex hasn’t worked, and has been harmful, they are doubling down.

But we can stop that. When we hear the obligation sex message, we can speak up. When we hear women being told to have sex so husbands don’t watch porn, we can walk out. We can say no. We can speak up on social media.

And men–I’m asking you especially. Only 1/3 of Christian men understand what real, intimate sex looks like. The change has to start with you. Please speak up. The next generation deserves far better than this!

How Many Christian Husbands Don't Objectify Women

Did this number surprise you? Why or why not? How can we change this as a church community? Let’s talk in the comments!

Sheila Wray Gregoire

Sheila Wray Gregoire

Founder of To Love, Honor and Vacuum

Sheila is determined to help Christians find biblical, healthy, evidence-based help for their marriages. And in doing so, she's turning the evangelical world on its head, challenging many of the toxic teachings, especially in her newest book The Great Sex Rescue. She’s an award-winning author of 8 books and a sought-after speaker. With her humorous, no-nonsense approach, Sheila works with her husband Keith and daughter Rebecca to create podcasts and courses to help couples find true intimacy. Plus she knits. All the time. ENTJ, straight 8

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367 Comments

  1. Laurel B

    These are sobering statistics – and make me even more grateful for my husband of two years (our anniversary is today!) who is in that 33% of safe men. I had been so exposed to the harmful “Christian” messages about sex that when we married and my new husband cared for ME sexually and served ME, it threw me for a loop! I wondered if I was actually attractive if he wasn’t just panting after me all the time… and having an equal or higher sex drive added to my worries. Thankfully, by now I have come to truly appreciate that he is this way! I love the way he displays Jesus to me and serves me in a multitude of ways, not only sexually. Our love life is so enjoyable to me that I was four days postpartum, crying that we had to wait six weeks for intimacy. 😆 Sex according to God’s principles is a wonderful thing!

    Reply
    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      I love this! Love hearing about good marriages. And Happy Anniversary!

      Reply
    • Meghan

      I’m the same way! I thought something was wrong with me because I wanted sex more than my husband during the newlywed phase of our marriage. Now 6 years in (as of Saturday – hey anniversary buddy!) we are pretty equal. And he always prioritized me in the bedroom, which made me feel selfish for a long time, until I found this blog!

      Reply
  2. Anon

    My only surprise with your stats is that the number of ‘safe’ men is so high – I’m actually pleased that this many men ARE safe…which makes me sad that I feel like this number is good news when it’s so low.

    I’d love to know what the number would be if you ran a similar survey on guys who don’t claim to be Christians or attend any church. Sadly, I think it might be a lot higher.

    One of the things that put me off the idea of marriage for years was that, from my reading of the Bible, I believed that a Christian should only marry another Christian, yet when I looked at the single guys who felt safe to be around, they were all unbelievers. It’s so sad that so often, the church lags behind the world in behaving well to others. And I’m so thankful I stayed single into my 40s, until I met one of the 33.7%.

    Reply
    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      I’d love to run such a survey one day too! I’m glad you found your safe guy, too!

      Reply
    • Kya

      I could very well be wrong (and it would be great if I am), but I feel like porn use would be higher among non-Christians. It’s become so main-stream and shame-free lately that without Christian (or similar) ethics in place most guys would feel no need to limit its use.

      Reply
      • Sheila Wray Gregoire

        Yes, it certainly is higher in the secular world. At the same time, I think the other measures would be lower. So I’m not actually sure which group would score better overall!

        Reply
        • S

          Sheila, maybe I don’t fully understand the pornified style of relating but I’d be genuinely curious why the other factors would decrease with increased porn use in the secular world?

          I’m not disagreeing but wondering why that might be?

          My husband has always been Christian. Used porn off and on in his teens and into the first decade of our marriage. But he doesn’t have a pornified style of relating. To be sure it caused several issues for him and for me/us.

          I think this is because, though he grew up in our faith (Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints) he went to college at a state school and was very exposed to the world as well. His parents had open dialogue at home about sex.

          I’m just wondering why some would adopt that style of relating and others wouldn’t–and why it might be more prevalent among Christians?

          Reply
          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            The difference, I think, is that evangelicalism specifically teaches the pornified style of relating–it objectifies women and teaches women that men deserve sex and are entitled to sex, and that women are obligated to give it.

            While porn tells the same story, in secular culture the teaching is explicitly the opposite, at least from authority figures. And it seems to be the pornified style of relating, or specifically teaching the obligation sex message, that is the most dangerous.

            Other large studies, especially by Samuel Perry, have found that porn has more of an effect on men who think porn is a sin than those who think it’s not. When they don’t think it’s a sin, they’re more inclined to compartmentalize it and not see it as related to their interactions with real-life women, while Christians are more likely to have porn impact that.

            It’s a big conversation and hard to get into, but maybe one day I’ll do a deep dive on it! But the big thing is that porn is bad; but the obligation sex message is bad too, and it magnifies how bad porn is.

          • S

            Thanks for the reply. The study you refer to is incredibly interesting. I’ve always wondered if that was true.

      • Heather

        I don’t think it’s ACTUALLY higher in the secular world, I think non Christians just feel free to admit it.
        “christian” men hide and deny their porn usage

        Reply
  3. Phil

    I think the numbers make sense and they’re fascinating too! The biggest take away I’ve gotten here lately is the word HONOR. At times I am presented with temptation to lust. If Im completely honest here sometimes I fail. Meaning I take a consumption look. However most times I am successful. The reasons for success have sometimes been mysterious to me. Depending on how persistent the temptation is the harder I will work to deflect even if that means questionable healthy strategies such as avoid or look away or look at my feet, turn my back etc. However I have recently been practicing telling myself to “HONOR” that woman and yes she is beautiful. And it works! Far cry better than telling myself dont look you will lust. Which truly has been a primary way I went about it. Good stuff Sheila. THANK YOU. 😬

    Reply
    • Hiraeth

      Hey Phil,

      I just want to let you know that your openness, humility, insights, and ability to honestly look at yourself blesses me. I really respect your journey.

      I admire that you consistently seek to honor women instead of ignoring them. I can understand why some men might think it’s necessary to ignore while retraining the brain, but this route you’re taking truly honors other women AND yourself. It seems like you’re actively doing what Scripture commands: put off the old mind and put on the new, the mind of Christ. It takes work, and you’re putting in the work and seeing results. It’s a good testimony.

      Thank you!

      Reply
      • Phil

        Thank you. I appreciate. I do what I do not only for myself but for my wife and my family and hopefully someone else along the way. For me, if I dont work on myself and improve I become one of the 50% that are unsafe. My hope by sharing my testimony is that it will help others so they too can be happy joyous and free! Then when the miracle happens for them I get to see God at work. Thats a rush to be part of that…I hang my hat on watching God work. Right now I am watching my wife and family grow in God – thats even better than watching/helping some guy get cleaned up I can tell you that! My wish is for all to jump on board and do the same. 😎

        Reply
  4. Jim

    What I would be interested to know how the safe/unsafe categories did when dating.

    I wonder if the unsafe were those would be considered ‘bad boys’ and the safe were the ‘nice guys’. Were there red flags during the dating phase that could have given women hints of what type of guy this was?

    It would interesting to see if there is any correlation.

    Reply
    • Laura

      I was thinking the very same thing.

      Reply
    • Anna

      Well, since 85% of men have used porn (AT ONE TIME OR OTHER) (Did I get that number right, Sheila? Correct me if I’m wrong) most commonly in their 20s, the prime dating years, I don’t think that’s a good faith question. Women are not some kind of porn bloodhounds.

      Reply
    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      Yes, I’d like to know this too! We can flesh out a little bit more in our mother-daughter survey ,but I’m hoping we can pick some of this up when we do a matched pair survey for our marriage book later.

      Reply
    • Anon

      I’m not sure that porn use would show up (unless the guy felt no shame about using it and was open about it), but attitudes toward women would. I’ve noticed that a lot of men who acted entitled and selfish around women generally, and especially when they were dating have turned into very controlling husbands who belittle their wives in public. So I’m guessing they don’t magically turn into kind, caring guys who consider their wife’s needs once they are at home.

      If a guy acts like he has all the say in a dating relationship, regularly makes decisions on her behalf, doesn’t consider her wishes when planning dates, pushes her to do things she’s not comfortable with…you can be fairly sure he’s not going to be a safe man to marry. Likewise, the man who is caring & considerate to his own girlfriend but is controlling, rude or objectifying toward other women. It doesn’t matter if he treats his girlfriend well if he treats other women badly. Because sooner or later, he is going to start treating her the way he treats all the others.

      Reply
  5. Anonymous

    Re shame, addiction cycle and shifting the focus to the harms of objectification:

    This is really personal, so I will be anonymous.
    My husband spent several years in an addiction cycle. He believed that using porn was wrong, he would be ashamed every time I caught him, he would make repeated vows to do better….and then he would do it all again. Eventually, the behavior spread beyond just porn, and included massage parlours.

    Eventually, things came to a head when it became clear that he behavior was self-destructive. He was getting careless and taking needless risks, to the point that it was impacting the rest of our lives. He got counseling and recovered.

    Shame made things worse. He knew perfectly well that what he was doing was wrong. He felt bad about it. That contributed to a dynamic where everyone else would think he was a good guy, he would feel that he wasn’t and get stressed out from imposter syndrome, he would deal with the stress by going to his dark side, and that would make him feel guilty and fuel more shame.

    My biggest concern was that his “dark side” was becoming increasingly separate from the rest of him. I knew he was a good man, good husband and good father. The problem was that this alter ego seemed not to be constrained, took risks, wasn’t always thinking rationally and wasn’t always thinking in a realistic way about the women involved. I was especially horrified by the last incident, because I knew that it was in an area that was known for criminal involvement and trafficking.

    To heal, he needed to admit that he wasn’t perfect, and that it was okay to have sexual thoughts. He needed to find better ways to deal with stress. He also needed to fully take responsibility for what he was doing. Before, in the shame cycle, he would say, “that’s not who I am”. He needed to fully accept that yes, it was part of who he was, and that he needed to be aware of the full picture including having a real picture of what the women involved were experiencing.

    Reply
    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      So good, Anonymous! Yes, most definitely. The books I recommended for guys to read all take this perspective as well.

      Reply
    • Anna

      I’ve been living with this cycle alongside my husband for 35 years. I think we, and various counselors, and “accountability partners”, and SA group members, and ad nauseum people have analyzed, picked apart, drilled down, dug deep, tried to make sense of emotions, motivations, ” woundedness,”…ALL the things with him. We’ve discussed shame, guilt, grace, blah, blah, blah. I don’t care anymore. I don’t care if he feels shame. He should. And not because of how he’s damaged himself, or sinned against God, or anything like that. But because of how he’s abused me. Like Sheila has implied with other scenarios…his porn use is not just, or even primarily, an assault on his purity. It is an assault on me. And, frankly, on his now adult children, who only have the relationship they have with their father because of my silence.

      So shame may not be useful for his healing and sobriety. But it sure would be considering for me.

      Reply
      • Anna

        I meant to say, it would be *vindicating for me.

        Reply
        • Jennie

          Anna- I was married to a person addicted to porn for over 22 years. I am familiar with the cycle- and sorry you are going through it. I ended up going to a support group.

          Reply
      • Sheila Wray Gregoire

        I hear you, Anna. And he needs to realize that he’s emotionally stunting himself as well. I hope he gets that one day. I’m so sorry.

        Reply
      • Lisa M

        Feeling shame when you’ve hurt someone is the legitimate response. Andrew Bauman distinguishes between legitimate shame and toxic shame. There are legitimate times when a person SHOULD feel shame.

        Reply
      • Sunflower

        Anna,
        You and I are in the same boat. You are right about your husband needing to feel shame. I want mine to also feel the pain he has caused me by using porn. You are absolutely right . . . It is abuse. 35+ years and he continues to lie about it every time. Not a single apology.

        I’ve tried screaming. I’ve tried saying nothing. I’ve tried telling him how it hurts me. I have given up now. Porn ruined our marriage.

        There’s nothing you can do to control his choices to sin. Focus on yourself.

        Cast all your worries on God, because he cares for you.

        Reply
  6. Guest

    Wow! Your comment about how men can put ALL their need for intimacy into sex really struck me. What a disaster! They don’t learn all around true healthy intimacy (spiritual, emotional, sexual). Meanwhile, women are also taught that their need for emotional and spiritual intimacy isn’t as real as the man’s need for sex, and if they just keep providing the sex, he will eventually come around with the other forms of intimacy… So…it sets them up for failure because it robs them of true mutuality. She keeps giving him what he wants while not having her needs met, she’s taught her needs aren’t as important (and he’s taught that too!), and he is never encouraged)helped in growing beyond this.

    Reply
  7. Laura

    I hate to say this, but the percentage of safe Christian men did not surprise me. I think another category to determine if men are safe is this: They don’t put pressure on you to do sexual things you are uncomfortable doing. These things include: sexting nude photos, certain sexual acts, pressuring you when you are sick, postpartum, on your period, or tired, etc. Also when you are dating, he respects your boundaries and does not pressure you sexually.

    Unfortunately, I was married to a “Christian” man who pressured me sexually before we were married and after we were married, he pressured me to do sexual acts I was uncomfortable with even though many people would be fine doing them and if I was sick, tired, or on my period and could not have intercourse, I was pressured to give him a hand job or oral sex (I didn’t like doing either one). I complied so he would be nicer to me.

    Then there was a “Christian” man I was almost in a relationship with who wanted to know what interested me sexually. How would I know because I’ve been celibate for a very long time? Well, I have decided NOT to have those kind of conversations unless we are in a relationship that is leading up to marriage. I don’t think a male friend or someone I’m casually dating needs to know what I like sexually. That’s none of their business.

    I put “Christian” in quotes (if you saw me talking, I’d be using air quotes) because although these men I talked about claimed to be Christians, they sure did not behave Christ-like.

    Reply
    • CMT

      Not pressuring sexually-super important. I wonder if this falls under #3 though- not believing in obligation/entitlement. Obviously if you pressure someone to do something for you, you feel a sense of entitlement, whether you admit that you do or not. What I’m wondering is whether the survey measured entitled behaviors as well as entitled beliefs. Ie can we look at how often a man would say, “No, of course I don’t believe my wife is obligated to have sex with me whenever I want” but then behave in an entitled way (eg pressuring her for sex). Or, the flip side, is it like the lust thing, where men may believe something they actually aren’t practicing?

      Reply
    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      Yes, I would absolutely add that–we just had no way of measuring it without a matched pair study. So we had to use criteria that we could actually measure. But I think that’s a HUGE indication, yes, and hopefully this will be evident in the dating process as well.

      Reply
    • NG

      Yes, it is so important to be aware of these red flag behavioral patterns.
      I would not like to discuss any sexual preferences before a serious commitment, either.. sadly, some men make such conversations a requirement, before they even consider a relationship in the first place. Or, maybe it is a good thing they expose their creepy priorities beforehand.

      As someone who used to have high libido, and suffered for it during the long decades of singleness, I am now transforming back to what I was in my early twenties.. longing for gentleness, kindness and tenderness over any sexual activity.
      Maybe it really was a blessing that I never was accepted by any entitled conservative ‘Christian’ man.. I will be thankful for someone with a lesser libido, when his heart is humble and in the right place.

      Reply
    • Boone

      I showed your post to a friend of mine that ran into at breakfast this morning. He was divorced about three years ago from a disaster of a marriage. His wife told him after the birth of their second child that she was done with sex and that his main job was to bring in the money which she spent like a drunk sailor. He did his best to make her happy but every time he would get one task accomplished she would berate him because he didn’t do it right or give him three more tasks to add to it. He stayed until he got his boys raised and then walked out. This was done with his sons’ blessing.
      Now, I should say that this is one of the kindest most gentle men I have ever known. He is a devout Christian in spite of the lack of help he was given by the church during his marriage.
      He read your post, shook his head and said that he had the sex conversation usually around the fourth date and he didn’t see that it mattered if one was a Christian, Hindu or a Druid. If the situation looks like it could be promising he approaches the topic. I asked him if he thought that it might be a little early for something so personal. He replied that since he lost so much time being miserable he realizes the value of same. It might be early but he wants to know where they stand and what they might enjoy and not enjoy. He said that if he ever got married it was going to be to a high drive woman and he wasn’t about repeat his previous experience. He said that there was no point putting further time, money and emotions into someone that he was not compatible with. It’s easier to break it off sooner than later.

      Reply
      • NG

        I do get that point, especially as a (former..) high libido woman.
        Like your friend, I also used to think that similar drive would be essential for marital fullfillment.
        But, after the life experiences I have been through, I have come to appreciate very different things as paramount.

        As Christian, the most important is the telationship and intimacy with the Lord. No, it is not the same whether one is druid, Hindu, or a Christian – our values also affect how we view sexuality.
        My sense of femininity and sexuality stens from my understanding, seeing, and valuing myself as God’s daughter, loved and owned by my Savior.

        As for intimate conversations, that is something that should come after a relationship and commitment is established – otherwise it can really be violating emotional boundaries. I have been in enough situationships, where all the discussions and perceived connection led nowhere. So, the man need to Be willing to know in his heart I am the one for him and make his intentions clear, ( based on his relationship with God, prayer, his discernment before anything else) only then do these marital wiestions enter the conversation..

        Reply
      • NG

        And, by the way, Bone..
        All attempts to ensure marital happiness can still fall to pieces.
        What is something happens medically?
        Any other disaster?
        Tje high drive woman may end up alone and unfullfilled, if your friend gets sick (God forbid, but we live in a fallen world!)

        The person eeds to be someone we can trust and enjoy being together, even if having to hide in a bomb shelter under apocalyptic conditions.
        As important sex is, it really is no guarantee of anything..

        Reply
        • Boone

          I’ve spent many a cool evening around a fire on a hunting or fishing trip with this man as big tears rolled down his face. All he wanted was to have a wife that loved him and that he could love in return. He also got seriously burned over the years by their church. All the help that he got from them was being told to love her like Jesus, pray more and give it to God.
          The really sad thing is that this man would make an excellent husband. He’s a great father and the fact that his sons have turned out well is largely due to him.
          He told me about his first date questions. He asks how she feels about bird dogs, guns, fly fishing and horses. A wrong answer to any of those guarantees that there will be no second date and that she’ll be home in time to catch the 11o’clock news.

          Reply
          • NG

            I tried to reply, but the system won’t let me through..
            Sorry for misspelling your name earlier, Boone.

      • Anon

        I’m so sorry about your friend. I can understand why he feels anxious about making sure a new wife would have a different attitude toward sex, but I’m afraid he’s going the wrong way about it. Most Christian women I know would be completely freaked out by such a question being raised on the 3rd or 4th date. The ones that wouldn’t…well, let’s just say I’d be sad to see them marrying any friend of mine. Yes, it’s good to have some open and honest discussions about sex before getting married, but by having them so early, I worry your friend is going to be scaring off the princesses and leaving himself with the frogs, to misquote the old fairytale!

        I used to worry about raising a particular topic with anyone I dated – too early and I felt I would be making myself too vulnerable, too late and I worried about being emotionally attached to someone I wouldn’t end up marrying. When I started dating my husband, I felt total peace that I could leave the timing in God’s hands – and I was right.

        Reply
        • NG

          Amen, Anon. You expressed so well what I tried to do in my reply to Boone, but for some reason, those replies got jammed or ended in a spam folder.. lol

          Agree with your sentiments and wise words, they are good advice for anyone praying for a spouse.

          Reply
      • Emmy

        I’m so sorry for your friend, Boone, and I know these kind of things happen. Men can be abused in marriage too. Something very similar happened to a close family member of mine. He married a woman who appeared to be verbally and financially abusive, and unfaithful as well. And just adding misery upon misery, he got hardly any hepl or support fron Church or his Christian friends. Most of them just told him to pray more, and some said this would not have happened if he had walked closer to God. It really broke him and almost drove him to a suicide. I never had thought I would advise a young Christian man to divorce his wife but in this case, it was the best thing to do. The misery had to be stopped.

        I’m not sure if this all could have been prevented with some honest and serious talk on time. Perhaps, but still hard to tell afterwards.

        I hope and pray your friend has better luck the next time.

        Reply
  8. Jo R

    Count me as another woman surprised that the number is as high as it is.

    Any chance we could see the rates of wives’ orgasm between the one-third of husbands who are safe and the two-thirds who aren’t?

    Reply
      • Sheila Wray Gregoire

        Okay, she just ran it, and safe dudes are 24% more likely to have wives who frequently reach orgasm. So it definitely has an effect! Plus marital satisfaction gets a big bump.

        Reply
        • Jo R

          Thanks to Joanna for running that so quickly!

          Wow, I was hoping THAT number would be higher, more like 75 percent. Sigh.

          Reply
          • CMT

            I see what you mean, it would be kind of nice to see a dramatic stat like that – “husbands, your wife is 75% more likely to orgasm frequently if you are safe, so don’t be an *ss!” But 24% more likely is still a pretty striking impact, imo, when you consider all the other factors at play in women’s ability to orgasm. I think it reflects the fact that even when she’s married to a good guy, a woman still has to handle her own stuff.

          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            Yes, exactly. Also, the largest percentage of the guys who are unsafe are there merely because they rarely watch porn, and “rare” could be like once every six month slip ups. Still very wrong, but if the overall view of women isn’t objectified, I wonder if that would influence it?

  9. Anonymous this time

    As a wife of a husband, this number makes me angry. As a mom to sons, this number makes me sad.

    I feel powerless to help my boys. They will be exposed to porn. I can’t stop that. My seven year old has already been exposed to inappropriate ads (girls flashing guys on motorcycles, viewed from behind as part of a Levi’s jean commercial while we were watching Sesame Street on YouTube, animated girls in inappropriate clothes, inappropriate poses, cartoon chests heaving as part of a video game ad while my son was playing a pinball game). All stuff that somehow skirts our filters.

    There are thousands of voices trying to reach my sons to encourage, congratulate, and even reward them for hurting women and girls. I’m screaming at the top of my lungs but the reality is, some of those other voices will reach them.

    I know I have an influence but so did the moms of the 67% of men who failed the check. And like so many others, my boys look to their dad for an example and find him struggling and ashamed and not really able to talk about it well. Just like he looked to his dad and got handed a stack of playboys instead of answers.

    And I see pictures of my husband when he was a boy, and I watch in those pictures as he grows and the light drains out of his eyes and he shuts in on himself. I see at 14 when he stops smiling in pictures and doesn’t start again until he’s almost 30. I see him move from the group shots to the back and the edges, as far away from the other people as he can get. And I wonder if there’s anything I can do to spare my sons, and I feel like I’m on my own out here.

    Men, is there anything you love enough to put up a fight? Lots of rhetoric on dying for someone – is there anyone, anything you love enough to LIVE HONORABLY for?

    Reply
    • Jim

      Anonymous this time,

      As a father of 3 boys (possibly 4, we don’t know yet) I have been striving to teach my boys to honor everyone, but especially women. We are part of a Trail Life troop, it is an off shoot of the Boy Scouts, and the Trailmen Oath is based on Biblical principles.

      It starts with:
      On my honor, I will do my best to serve…

      I love that since it does not require perfection. Doing our best is all we can truly ask of ourselves and each other.

      And it ends with:
      And to treat others as I want to be treated.

      The Golden Rule! I think that is a simple but powerful statement. I am thankful that my boys and I have this community that affirms these values.

      There are groups and organizations that are striving to teach boys to be Godly men.

      Reply
      • Jo R

        “There are groups and organizations that are striving to teach boys to be Godly men.”

        Well, that’s part of the problem, isn’t it? Because it depends on who’s defining what a “godly man” is.

        And five decades’ worth of best-selling “Christian” books on sex and marriage have been doing a fabulously male-centered job of writing that definition.

        Reply
        • Jim

          Jo R,

          Thank you for those words of encouragement.

          Reply
        • Jim

          Jo R,

          There is a reason that I said ‘striving’ doesn’t mean that the execution is perfect. But I am doing my part to try and make changes for the better as a husband, father and servant of God.

          What are you doing to help encourage men to be more Christ like?

          Reply
          • Jo R

            As the one who is trying to raise “Godly” men, perhaps you’d care to share your definition of “Godly”?

            Is it more like that of Emmerson Eggerichs, Kevin Leman, and Focus on the Family, or more like that Keith, Connor, and David here at TLHV?

            Because as I pointed out to a woman who’s fallen for the “Christian-typical” teaching of “the husband is the boss of the wife” on yesterday’s post, our understanding—rather, our CORRECT understanding—of Scripture needs to be first.

            As for what I’m doing, I guess in many men’s eyes I’ve failed miserably in my “God-ordained highest calling” of being a wife and mother, as I’ve managed only one out of two. Now my main goal is healing from three and a half decades of LIES being fed to me as “God’s own truth,” so I’m herre sharing my own “striving” in that regard. After that, I have no idea.

            But one thing I do know. I will be VERY careful which church I attend in the future, once I’ve done the aforementioned healing. Because I do know this: if I went to church right now and heard some of the typical BS that’s been slung in the churches I’ve attended since I became a Christian at twenty-one, I wouldn’t merely get up and leave quietly. Oh no, there would be some big-time, Jesus-style, Paul-style confrontation of publicly-taught lies “in God’s name.” And at this point, I’m nowhere NEAR calm enough to do so constructively.

          • Jim

            Jo R,

            I will gladly define what I mean by ‘Godly’.

            My wife and I are raising our sons to be respectful of everyone because we are all image bearers of God, worthy of infinite value.

            To treat others as they want to be treated. To value everyone, regardless who they are.

            To respect authority, not to blindly follow, but to respect those in authority and to be discerning in what is being taught.

            To stand up for what is right and true according to the Scriptures but be respectful when doing it.

            To emulate Jesus, following as closely as possible His example and that He died for them.

            To accept the fact that they are not perfect and no one else is either.

            Does that sound good to you?

          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            Hi Jim,

            This is good–but the problem is that I think Kevin Leman and Emerson Eggerichs would agree with this, as would Keith and Connor. So it doesn’t get to the heart of the differences.

          • Jo R

            Sure, that sounds great.

            But it kinda misses all the points that are more specific at this website.

            Do men have an unlimited right to sex with their wives? Do men get to use their wives as “church-approved masturbatory aids” to get orgasms whenever the men want them? Or do men “owe their conjugal debt” of sexual satisfaction to their wives, even if that conjugal debt requires activities that don’t particularly do much for the man? Do men get to have sexual pleasure at the cost of pain to their wives during the wives’ period, pregnancy, postpartum, and menopause, or should men make sure to take their wives’ needs into consideration? Can a man hear “no” at times without pouting? Can a man take direction from his wife in bed without taking offense?

            Do Christian men have to submit to their Christian wives and to other Christian women, per Ephesians 5:21, or does the submission bus travel exclusively on a one-way road?

            Are women allowed to use spiritual gifts given by and at the sole discretion of the Holy Spirit in the way that the Spirit leads, or are women to be hemmed in by rules made up, codified, enforced, and taught in a quite self-serving manner by men?

            It’s one thing to say “treat others as you would want to be treated,” but men never treat OTHER MEN sexually the way they all too often treat their wives.

            If a woman stands up for “what is right and true” and is clearly taught in Scripture, is she dismissed out of hand simply because she has a vagina instead of a penis?

            And if men are so willing to die for their wives the way Christ died for all of us, then why aren’t a whole lot more men willing to deny themselves on behalf of their wives on a day-to-day basis, where the business of living really happens? After all, how many men really ever have the opportunity to literally cease living on their wives’ behalf? Very few indeed, but it makes a handy way of discounting men’s need to learn to serve, because men have been getting a free pass on disobeying “it is more blessed to give than to receive” and “consider others as better than yourselves” and “for the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve” when the object of their service is, or rather ought to be, their own wives.

          • Jim

            Jo R,

            I have copied your previous comment and given brief responses.

            Do men have an unlimited right to sex with their wives?
            – No and neither do wives.

            Do men get to use their wives as “church-approved masturbatory aids” to get orgasms whenever the men want them?
            – No and neither do wives.

            Or do men “owe their conjugal debt” of sexual satisfaction to their wives, even if that conjugal debt requires activities that don’t particularly do much for the man?
            – Yes, but only if the man consents.

            Do men get to have sexual pleasure at the cost of pain to their wives during the wives’ period, pregnancy, postpartum, and menopause, or should men make sure to take their wives’ needs into consideration?
            – Men should be considerate of their wives and wives should be considerate as well.

            Can a man hear “no” at times without pouting? Can a man take direction from his wife in bed without taking offense?
            – They can but being disappointed or irritated that they are not doing it right is natural. But they need to ‘man up’ and figure it out.

            Do Christian men have to submit to their Christian wives and to other Christian women, per Ephesians 5:21, or does the submission bus travel exclusively on a one-way road?
            – Submission is a two way street. Anyone who says otherwise needs to re-read Ephesians 5, as in the whole chapter.

            Are women allowed to use spiritual gifts given by and at the sole discretion of the Holy Spirit in the way that the Spirit leads, or are women to be hemmed in by rules made up, codified, enforced, and taught in a quite self-serving manner by men?
            – Women have spiritual gifts and should be allowed to use them. I have been blessed by such women.

            It’s one thing to say “treat others as you would want to be treated,” but men never treat OTHER MEN sexually the way they all too often treat their wives.
            – Treatment is a broad term but I would think that it would encompass sex since one would not want someone to cause them pain. The logic would then follow that one would not want to cause pain to another. Unfortunately, people are selfish.

            If a woman stands up for “what is right and true” and is clearly taught in Scripture, is she dismissed out of hand simply because she has a vagina instead of a penis?
            – She should not be dismissed but I do know that it happens. It has also happened to men as well. I’m thinking of Martin Luther and others that have spoken out against church teachings that they find objectionable.

            And if men are so willing to die for their wives the way Christ died for all of us, then why aren’t a whole lot more men willing to deny themselves on behalf of their wives on a day-to-day basis, where the business of living really happens? After all, how many men really ever have the opportunity to literally cease living on their wives’ behalf? Very few indeed, but it makes a handy way of discounting men’s need to learn to serve, because men have been getting a free pass on disobeying “it is more blessed to give than to receive” and “consider others as better than yourselves” and “for the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve” when the object of their service is, or rather ought to be, their own wives.

            – Has the statement been misused? Yes it has and it drives me nuts. It equates to blasphemy to me since I believe that they are using the Lord’s name in vain. That is, they are using Scripture to justify what they want to do. They are using it as an excuse.

          • Jo R

            The most popular, best-selling “Christian” books Sheila has called out teach that

            1. Men get to have sex whenever they want (wives can’t say no else they’re depriving their husbands, no matter what may be going on with the woman)

            2. Women don’t need sex, and some books never even mention that women are in fact capable of orgasms (and multiples, to boot)

            3. Men really aren’t obligated to do sexual acts that bring pleasure, let alone orgasm, to their wives (because #2), especially if what a wife needs isnmore than good, old fashioned, man-on-top, get-it-over-with-quick PIV (and some sixty percent of women need more direct stimulation than PIV gives)

            4. Women owe their husbands on-demand manual and/or oral sex while menstruating, pregnant, postpartum, or menopausal, because those times are all so difficult for MEN.

            5. Submission is a one-way street (wives to husbands at the very least, and in some quarters, it’s to be ALL women to ALL men).

            6. Women are not allowed to use many of their spiritual gifts, and in fact, some English translations make it sound like women are never given any of the gifts that are typically used in a gathering where men might be present and therefore might involuntarily learn from a woman.

            All of the above are why it matters how we define what a “Godly man” is. Because men who follow the above are in fact called “Godly” by the most popular “Christian” marriage and sex books. So my question to you was not snarky and smart-alecky. It was because women (and men) need to understand just how Scripture has been twisted out of all conformity with God’s design for His kingdom.

            I’m thrilled to read your answers. I hope that you can survive the pushback you’ll inevitably get from men who follow the above playbook.

          • Jim

            Jo R,

            I welcome the push back. I will answer to a higher authority one day and I want to serve Him.

          • Michelle

            Jim, respectfully, I could show you at least a dozen Scriptures off the top of my head that actually teach we should not accept anything less than perfection in our walks (once we understand a truth).

          • Michelle

            I appreciate your previous input, by the way. “The greatest want of the world is the want of men—men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.”

    • S

      Hi Anonymous this time,

      I’m feeling your feelings so much through this message.

      I think the hope is in Sheila’s comment about men putting all their needs into sex and not finding other ways to address their needs. Or finding healthy ways to cope.

      As we teach our children to do that, we give them a leg up. Living a life with the light of Christ feels good and free–when we live honorably for Him and with His help.

      I truly believe that He can help your sons and He can help you teach them.

      Spending time with Christ myself each day and helping my family connect with Him are top properties because He’s the one who will rescue.

      This isn’t to say your not doing those things. It’s just encouragement to remember that there’s nothing He can’t do. It may not work because we’re all free to choose but cultivating a relationship with Christ is what I think the answer for most families, youth groups, congregations is, etc.

      Reply
    • Eliza

      As the mom of teen boys I feel like these statistics have actually been really hopeful. . . . the message I got growing up from Focus on the Family and the like was that I would have the duty as a mother to protect my sons from ever being exposed to anything questionable, and any exposure would lead to an inevitable downward spiral.

      Reading these and experience makes me realize that it’s not about preventing every possible bad exposure. My in-laws were stricter than could be imagined and failed completely at it anyway. Indeed, too much focus on avoiding the bad only led to a fixation on it. (What did work was honesty, acceptance, and working on root issues.)

      Instead, I’ve come to realize my job as a mom is not to shield them from every bad exposure (especially as they reach an age where it’s not even possible for me to do that without unhealthy levels of control). It’s to connect with them, to help them learn to express their emotions appropriately and safely and turn to healthy relationships instead of addictive behaviors. It’s to teach serving and being served in turn instead of either entitlement or self-erasure. And as they grow I see that they can recognize the difference between healthy and unhealthy interactions and perspectives.

      And I can’t guarantee good outcomes because my sons have free will. But so far, despite being loud and smelly and argumentative as befits teenage boys, I think they’re pretty cool people. I don’t think they’ll never sin. But I think they’ll be able to be safe people who can have healthy relationships.

      Reply
      • CMT

        I love this! I heard a lot of the scaremongering focus on the family type messages growing up and I agree it breeds a really unhealthy, control-focused dynamic.

        I read an excellent book a few years ago called, I think, “The Gardener and the Carpenter.” The idea is that, as parents, we are most effective when we cultivate our kids like gardeners, rather than trying to construct them like carpenters. I don’t remember all the neuroscience and psychology research the writer pulled in, but the metaphor sticks with me, and it has really helped me to think about how I can help my kids grow as unique people, rather than treating them as raw material to be shaped according to a preconceived blueprint.

        I do think the original commenter is struggling with something a little different though, and her own husband is, or might be, one of the negative influences she’s trying to overcome. That has to be deeply sad, lonely and frightening. And it can’t be that rare if that many men have issues in this area.

        Reply
  10. Nathan

    Let’s take a look.

    1 – No porn for me. Not in the last 21 years at least. And even then, it was probably only about 10 minutes per week, and I had a rule that I never watched porn while dating somebody.

    2. I’ll admit that I look around, and often have sexual feelings, attractions and thoughts about other women, but I don’t wallow in those thoughts (most of the time), so I’ll say that I rarely lust, but sometimes I fall into it.

    3. No. Never believed in obligation sex. Of course, I didn’t go to church when I was younger, and even after I started going, the main message was “don’t have sex before marriage”, but nothing about after marriage. Still later, I heard the message “wives, have sex with your husbands, or he’ll stray and it’s your fault”, but I never agreed with that anyway.

    4. Not always, but I do keep in mind that intimacy is for both of us, and I make an effort to please her in all areas of life. Do I always succeed? No, but I care about her and make an effort to ensure that she’s happy.

    Overall, without trying to brag, I would probably say that I’m mostly safe, but not perfect.

    Reply
    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      “mostly safe but not perfect” is pretty good! I think that counts. 🙂

      Reply
    • Michelle

      Hi Nathan! Thanks for your honest input. As I mentioned above to another gentleman commenting, I could share with you many verses on perfection in the Bible. I believe in it, and would love to see true Christians with their heart in the right place embrace the concept so they can go all the way in their walk.

      Reply
  11. Evelyn

    Hi Sheila and Family! I recently used The Great Sex Rescue as a major part of a research paper for graduate school! (I’m surprised I made it through that project without throwing any dishes against walls-I feel so duped…) Many thanks for all you do!

    I wanted to add a couple of valuable resources to the list for men dealing with pornography addiction. Jay Stringer’s book, Unwanted, digs deep into the WHY behind the addiction and actually shows how the type of addiction can pave the way back to God. https://jay-stringer.com/book/

    Micahel and Christine Leahy’s ministry, Bravehearts University, has been a huge help to me. They have messages and support groups for the male sex addict and the female betrayed spouse.
    https://www.braveheartsuniversity.com/

    I am currently attending the same graduate school Jay Stringer and Andrew Bauman attended! We need more counselors out there who can deal with this stuff!

    Many thanks for all you do!

    Reply
    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      I have heard so much about Unwanted but I haven’t read it yet! It really needs to be next on my list. Thanks so much!

      Reply
  12. Nessie

    I totally agree with several others that I felt this number was high, which also makes me sad.

    “We need to start explaining that the victims of porn are women, not just men.” I think this is a really good point, and again, makes me sad that many people think men are the sole victims of porn use.

    I wonder how many guys/boys had a less successful time resisting porn because they had already absorbed the obligation sex/lust messages by the time they were exposed to it or turned to it? What difference might it make if boys heard more from pulpits/Christian teachings about having power in Christ to resist temptation than about lust, women needing to adjust wardrobes, it’s just how God wired guys, etc.? I feel like many sermons that address lust AND also mention having a way out of temptation or having the power to defeat it ONLY mention those bits as little end notes or quick sermon wrap-up instead of actively approaching it. In that way, I feel like we are trying to make Jesus smaller to fit in the finite little box we want to put Him in. We have power through Him but we so often fail to access it (in many ways, not just porn/lust) to make ourselves more like Him.

    Reply
    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      I wonder a lot of these questions, too! And what would happen if we taught boys as young teens that those are real women being raped in porn? So many boys are actually quite justice oriented, especially young ones. I think telling the whole story would help a lot of guys resist or never want to participate in the first place.

      Reply
      • Michelle

        So, so true.

        Reply
    • Michelle

      Amen, Nessie!

      Reply
  13. Guest

    Unfortunately, although I qualify as one of the “safe” men based on your criteria, after spending 22 years in a borderline sexless marriage to an evangelical woman who has almost no desire for intimacy in any form, I’ve basically given up on the idea that any of this even matters anymore.

    Reply
    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      I’m so sorry. Did you ever see a licensed counselor about this? Ask her to go with you?

      Reply
      • Guest

        Yes, we’ve been to a few different LMFTs and psychologists over the years, individually and as a couple. Things might get better for a few weeks to a few months, but then life just goes back to her hating herself and me feeling all alone and rejected as a person and as a man. We’ve learned that if you don’t love yourself, it’s impossible to love others or to receive love from them. Knowing this doesn’t make it any better. And being “good” Christians just makes this a life sentence.

        Reply
  14. Joshua Perkins

    I’d be interested to read the list mentioned in the second criterion of “the potentially lustful situations” presented; is that in another post somewhere?

    Reply
    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      I believe there were four (I’m going by memory, Joanna may have to correct me): Having to speak to a very attractive woman in a social setting; having a waitress with cleavage serve your table while you’re sitting there with a buddy (we got that from For Women Only); having a young mom bend over in front of you as she gets a toddler out of a car seat (we got that scenario from Every Man’s Battle); having a young teen walk into church with very revealing clothing on. For each there were several options, from not noticing to noticing to being tempted to think about her later or linger on her now to actively lusting or masturbating in a car or washroom (again, we got the latter from Every Man’s Battle while made masturbating in a car in a public place sound normal).

      Reply
  15. Depressed Dad

    In other words,it’s still the old addage “Happy Wife Happy Life”!!! Not “Happy Spouse Happy House” Its just a one way street,not a two way street.. GOD designed man to release his seed. This feminist movement in this era is ridiculous and belittles men substantially. This new society tells men we need to get it together and keep our testosterone in check or our raging hormones!!!! So now you’re trying to put men in and their needs in a box. Unfortunately the way GOD made us,our needs cannot be kept in a box and taken out at a woman’s leisure. At that rate it won’t happen and you’ll be in a sexless marriage. I understand what you’re saying,but until you’ve walked a mile in a man’s shoes and felt what it’s like to see the beauty of a woman!!!! You have no right to tell men to stay in their lane!!!! Look at all of the men in depression walking the earth!!! Look at all of the men committing suicide!!! There’s a big reason why alot of them are in this boat. Because the days have changed when it’s no longer obligatory to have sex with your husband. Now it’s up to the woman to decide. And trust me many a man don’t want to carry the burden with how GOD created them!!!!

    Reply
    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      So, to be clear, men are committing suicide because women now have a say in whether or not they have sex, and are allowed to consent? So basically men will kill themselves unless they’re allowed to rape their wives? Just want clarity here.

      Reply
      • Andrea

        Also, enough of the testosterone excuses! Look up research by testosterone scientists (Robert Sapolsky at Stanford, for example, or Carole Hooven at Harvard) and they will tell you that they cannot predict how aggressive or sexual a man is by his levels of testosterone. Hooven said in a recent interview that she herself was very surprised by that.

        On a different note, but one related to today’s blog post, here’s an article from the New York Times that will show you how the secular world is handling porn better than the Christian one: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/07/magazine/teenagers-learning-online-porn-literacy-sex-education.html

        Reply
    • Sarah O

      “GOD designed man to release his seed…This new society tells men we need to…keep our testosterone in check or our raging hormones!!!!…many a man don’t want to carry the burden with how GOD created them!!!!”

      This is your testimony? This is the god you serve?

      How does Jesus’ example fit into this? How do the fruits of the spirit in Galatians fit into this? Why does God then call emission of semen “unclean” in Deuteronomy, requiring men to go outside the camp until they were cleansed, if they were only engaging in their true purpose? Why does Paul call us “more than conquerors” in Romans, if the burden cannot be laid down?

      You may wish to google “phallic gods” to find one that will serve you better. There’s a whole selection to choose from that would support your points, and what’s more, they are far less dangerous to profane this way.

      Reply
    • Anonymous This Time

      Why not just be the kind of man that is being described here? Why not be the kind of man that your wife can’t wait to have sex with? Why not be like Jesus and use the power he has given to over come lust and objectification? Why not see sex as a beautiful gift to be shared, where you get to bring so much pleasure and enjoyment and love to your spouse? Why not just be a sexually safe man and see what happens rather than bemoaning the fact that you no longer get to be a sexually unsafe man because women won’t put up with it anymore. Trust me, you think you are being deprived of something when in reality what is being offered is far more fulfilling then anything you will be losing. Look up some of the resources being mentioned and become the kind of man that your wife will want to have sex with frequently. I can hardly keep my hands off my husband and we have been married 25 years and the biggest reason is because he is a sexually safe man and because he has always put me first, sacrificially, just like he is called to do as a Christian husband. My husband is not sexually deprived in any way and I have always had the option to say “no” but that option alone conveys so much love that I rarely do say “no”. In fact, he probably says “no” far more than I do. Might be worth giving being a sexually safe man a try.

      Reply
      • Depressed Dad

        The standards set on today’s men are so high that the men of the other generations would never have gotten married. Not only do we have to do the chores,Child care etc,but also work full time and then out of all of that somehow have rose petals all over the house and candles lit and massages for our significant other for hours. And then maybe we get a little bit of bread crumbs along the way. Or we are just met with the ” No not today,I’m tired,or I’ve got a headache. Even after we go above and beyond our call of duty!!!! Is that love to sit idly by and be sexually frustrated. Or is it just Meer buffoonery to be continued to be led on and used!!!!

        Reply
        • Sheila Wray Gregoire

          Can you tell me what is above and beyond there, please? Are you saying that caring for your children and having a relationship with them is “above and beyond”?

          Reply
        • Jo R

          So asking men to continue even a little bit of their dating and engaged behavior (which probably included, among other things, long talks about deep-ish subjects, thoughtful actions toward each other, interest in each other’s hobbies and favorite activities, and snuggling and making out without it leading to PIV) after the wedding is asking too much?

          If continuing those kinds of behaviors really is asking too much, then why do men act that way while they’re dating and engaged? Because honestly, if men are doing such nice, courting-type gestures and behaviors only to catch the woman and—let’s call a spade a spade—trick her into marriage, then frankly, men are lying, and they’re the ones doing the “leading on.”

          When the couple has children, are you suggesting that the entire burden of raising them is on the wife? That the husband’s sole duty is to bring home a paycheck? That asking husbands to do more than “helping out” by occasionally “baby-sitting” their own kids from time to time is some kind of huge burden?

          It’s the epitome of my favorite non-joke: Wife asks husband why he never says “I love you” anymore. Husband says, “I told you I loved you the day we got married. Why do you need it over and over?” When he subsequently says he’d like to have sex, then really, her response ought to be, “I had sex with you the day we got married. Why do you need it over and over?”

          Reply
        • Anon

          “Meer buffoonery” – that’s “MERE buffoonery.” Fixed it for you.

          Pardon the snark here, but considering you apparently lack the intelligence on how to just plain not be an *ss, I’m not at all surprised you have the spelling skills of a 5-year-old.

          Reply
    • Brambonius

      What?

      What an animalistic anti-male sexism are you even spouting?

      Men are much better than what you describe. Isn’t selfcontrol expected from a Christian (and all of the fruits of the Spirit)?

      How can anyone consider themselves a lover if they find themselves entitled to sex without wanting to give? Can someone be so clueless about what making love is? Wouldn’t that be the emptiest thing ever?

      How can any man who’s even a moderately decent person (not even speaking about Christian values here) enjoy sex with a partner who doesn’t want it? How can that ever bring satisfaction beyond an empty animalistic release?

      It’s much better to never have sex at all (‘It’s good for a man to never touch a woman’ as the bible says) than to be a person who enjoys sex from an unwilling partner and still believe you’re a lover and you have intimacy.

      I can completely understand men getting depressed and worse if they have your view of men. It is like a vaccine against love, healthy relationships, and intimacy.

      please tell me you’re just trolling!

      Reply
    • Owen

      Depressed Dad,

      I’ve tried to address all your points. I hope you get the help you need so that you are no longer depressed.

      ‘In other words,it’s still the old addage “Happy Wife Happy Life”!!! Not “Happy Spouse Happy House” ‘

      – In my experience in doing the work to become a safe and healthy man- both are true.

      ‘Its just a one way street,not a two way street.’

      – It’s absolutely a “two-way street.” With the right mind-set husbands and wives can both enjoy an a mutually satisfying sexual relationship.

      ‘GOD designed man to release his seed. ‘

      – This is patently false. I’m not sure who your God is, but I believe in the God of the Bible who was embodied in Jesus. Based on Jesus example- humans were designed for loving, intimate relationship with Him and with one another.

      ‘This feminist movement in this era is ridiculous and belittles men substantially.’

      – Feminism means “treating women as equal with men.” Jesus did that. I do that, and don’t feel belittled at all.

      ‘This new society tells men we need to get it together and keep our testosterone in check or our raging hormones!!!! ‘

      – Are you saying you don’t think it’s appropriate to keep your “raging hormones” in check? How do you think Jesus feels about that?

      ‘So now you’re trying to put men in and their needs in a box. Unfortunately the way GOD made us,our needs cannot be kept in a box and taken out at a woman’s leisure. ‘

      – I think you are probably conflating a need for intimacy with a need for sex. This is a common male mistake- one which I myself made for MANY MANY years. When I FINALLY understood the difference I started down the path of being a healthy man. Men need intimacy just as much as women. And women need sex just as much as men.

      ‘At that rate it won’t happen and you’ll be in a sexless marriage.’

      – This is wrong. In fact I find it hard to believe that any married man in America has more sex with his wife than I do. But I had to humble myself and do the hard work to get here.

      ‘I understand what you’re saying,but until you’ve walked a mile in a man’s shoes and felt what it’s like to see the beauty of a woman!!!!’

      – I’ve walked tens of thousands of miles in a man’s shoes. I’m telling you that Sheila and Keith are correct. Seeing the beauty of a woman is a great and normal thing. Devouring her in your mind, objectifying her, and treating her as if she is not an equal and NOT a fellow image-bearer of God- is lust and is wrong. It is wrong when women do it also.

      ‘You have no right to tell men to stay in their lane!!!!’

      – They have every right to tell other Christians to not lust after women.

      ‘Look at all of the men in depression walking the earth!!! Look at all of the men committing suicide!!! There’s a big reason why alot of them are in this boat. ‘

      – I think these men need to understand who Jesus is and why he died for them. They need to understand the intimacy they need that is missing from their lives. Many of them also need to humble themselves, change their worldview, and seek professional help.

      ‘Because the days have changed when it’s no longer obligatory to have sex with your husband.’

      – It was never OK for wives to have obligatory sex with their husband. Coercive sex is called rape.

      ‘Now it’s up to the woman to decide. And trust me many a man don’t want to carry the burden with how GOD created them!!!!’

      – God created me to have intimate relationship with Him and other humans. The burden I carry is the cross he asked me to take up. But His burden is easy and His yoke is light.

      It honestly sounds to me like you really don’t know who Jesus is. I mean personally. Or you were never taught that if you claim to be a God-follower your mission in life is to make yourself look like Jesus. Also- have you tried changing? You sound like you are hurting, and lashing out from a position of hurt. Have you tried examining your world-view? Have you asked yourself “if my current worldview leaves me in a miserable state where no man would get sex unless wives are coerced into it, maybe I should open my mind and at least try out a new world-view?”

      Do you have the humility of Jesus? If you do I would recommend the following books:
      – The Sin of Certainty by Pete Enns
      – How not to be an *ss by Andrew Bauman.

      Great, easy to read books that have helped me immeasurably.

      God bless.

      Reply
    • CMT

      Depressed Dad,

      Wow. I’m assuming you knew when you wrote that you were going to get pushback, so take it as read that I disagree with basically everything you said.

      But, if I could walk a mile in your shoes, as you say, I imagine the world would look very alarming to me. I imagine I would feel incredible shame, since I believe I am unable to resist the temptation to lust. I imagine I would feel incredibly inadequate, since I believe I can’t be truly confident and secure in who I am unless a woman will build me up by giving me sex. And further, since I don’t believe she wants or likes sex herself, if she has autonomy over her body, then I feel incredibly threatened. My wholeness, my holiness then depends on the whims of someone I likely believe to be easily deceived, naturally manipulative, and incapable of understanding my God-ordained needs. How topsy-turvy and terrifying this world is becoming, then, when even Christians want to tell me women should be “free!”

      Whew. Your shoes don’t fit me, Depressed. But after trying them on, I think your handle makes some sense.

      You do have needs. We all do. God did make you, and everyone, to need connection and love. But men’s fundamental human needs aren’t meant to be such a crushing, terrifying burden. Not to men, not to women. Christ promises us freedom and rest for our souls. Does the vision of God you’ve suggested square with that?

      Reply
      • Depressed Dad

        I have yet to hear of a woman waking up having “MORNING WOOD” You don’t release, it builds and builds till it hurts. Only thing I can compare it to is when a woman’s breasts become fully engorged with breast milk for a baby. It gets painful and it needs to be drained. The other thing is when you’re wife deprives you for so long, when you leave the house to enter the world and women are flaunting their beautiful features. Wearing tight clothing,revealing clothing, it is very hard not to look and stray. Then if he does happen to glance and is caught looking then he is the vilest and most barbaric person on the planet! If the roles were reversed in this feminist driven society and the women were looking a man up and down like that. It is more accepted and less of a threat!!! If all men and women were created equal,then why is it in Ukraine the men were kept to fight the war and the women and children were sent out of the country? Can someone explain to me the fundamental reason why that occurred?
        And no I am not condoning going out of your marriage,or watching porn,or any other ways of betraying your spouse. But when you’ve been starved in the way that you feel loved,and fed for so long. At what point do you break and do something drastic!!!!

        Reply
        • Jo R

          “If all men and women were created equal, then why is it in Ukraine the men were kept to fight the war and the women and children were sent out of the country? Can someone explain to me the fundamental reason why that occurred?”

          Same reason very few male lambs and calves are kept, probably. It’s simply biology. One male can, if push comes to shove, impregnate many females. But if the female percentage of the population drops, then you get real problems.

          See what’s happening in places where female babies are aborted or abandoned at birth, because certain societies consider male children (and adult men) more valuable and female children (and adult women) a burden. Their population ratios are in the range of 140 men to 100 women, instead of the more usual 105-ish men to 100 women. Guess what? Lots of those men will never wind up married and producing children of their own, simply because there aren’t enough women to go around.

          If you stick around here at all, or better yet, go back through some of the older posts and read the comments, you’ll find that it ain’t exactly a picnic to be a woman who goes for decades—yes, DECADES—watching her husband enjoy repeatedly orgasmic sex while she gets to go without.

          Here are just three recent posts:

          https://baremarriage.com/2022/03/why-women-may-not-want-sex-in-marriage/

          https://baremarriage.com/2022/02/71-how-much-foreplay-is-enough/

          https://baremarriage.com/2021/11/what-we-dont-know-about-the-clitoris-and-other-parts-of-womens-sexuality/

          I would think that since the clitoris is erectile tissue, it also experiences the “morning wood” phenomenon, except that it isn’t so, er, pointedly obvious.

          Reply
          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            I find it so funny that people don’t realize that you can treat people as equals without thinking they’re the same.

          • Jo R

            So how do men with this attitude treat other men? Do they treat shorter/taller, thinner/fatter, lighter/darker, weakling/strongmen, funnier/not so funny men differently? Condescendingly if another man is somehow perceived to be inferior in some way? Or do they give all men equal honor and treat them as having equal value, regardless of variations in appearance, ability, skills, talents, education, gifting? 🤔🤔🤔

            If such men ARE in fact able to treat all MEN equally even if another man is in some way “inferior,” then voila! They have a perfect example of how to treat all PEOPLE equally, even a lowly, inferior woman. 🙄🙄🙄

        • Anon

          So what happens with the guys who are unmarried or widowed or whose wives end up seriously ill and unable to have sex for months or years? If it’s so impossible for men to cope without having sex whenever they want to, why don’t these guys end up either exploding or raping women?

          Right now, I know of a young guy whose wife has been in a HDU for months – he doesn’t know when, if ever, he is going to be able to have sex with her again.

          And what about those countries where you can be jailed simply for being a Christian? Is a pastor whose wife has been in jail for the past 5 years allowed to lust over other women or assault them because he is being deprived?

          Reply
        • Anon

          Oh, and by the way, there is a difference between being created ‘equal’ and being created ‘the same’. But even then, your example falls down, since women and children are not being ‘sent’ out of Ukraine. Some of them are choosing to leave. Many are choosing to stay and fight.

          And how exactly are women ‘flaunting’ their beautiful features at you? Unless they’re literally shoving themselves in your face, they are not flaunting, they are simply getting on with their day. Seriously, if you believe that every woman who walks by you on the street is ‘flaunting’ herself at you, then you are at risk of becoming a danger to women – please get yourself some counselling.

          Reply
          • Depressed Dad

            Spare me the holier than thou art speech. I’m sure if a woman had cleavage popping out of her turtle neck you unwittingly would catch a glance. Heck even another woman would stop and stare. Why because she knows what she is doing showing them off. If a woman was wearing boots that are longer than her shorts and she bent over,you would stop and look. Even the women would stop and look too. It’s accepted in today’s society that women can dress like that,and if you’re caught staring or glancing then there is something wrong with you!!! And you need to be corrected!!! Are you kidding me!!!! No one corrects the woman and tells her to not dress like that!!!! And no I’m not alone in this. Go take a look at Bettina Arndt podcast and listen a little. I’m glad speaks out for us men!!!!

          • FarmWife

            Thank you Depressed Dad!!!!! This is why it is SO important for a woman to dress modestly. My husband and I were at the local feed store the other day it was about 45 degrees and this woman (in her 20’s or 30’s) was in the store wearing short shorts, when she bent over her butt checks were visible. when she stood up (she was wearing a top that allowed her stomach to show) my husband and I both saw her thong! So gross and ungodly! I would not walk around the house like that let alone be caught dead outside of my house like that! There are a few churches left that have strict dress codes for women. Thank God for these churches.

          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            How do you have cleavage popping out of a turtleneck? Do you know what cleavage is?

          • Anon

            How about you just not look? And by the way, a turtleneck covers everything including your neck – it’s physically impossible for a woman’s cleavage to pop out of one. Do some research on basic fashion before you shoot your mouth off.

          • Anon 3

            Wow, from your attitude on the internet, it is pretty obvious why you might be getting “breadcrumbs.” Who would want to have sex with a person who acts like you?

          • Faith

            You can’t control what other people do in their day to day life or how they dress. At the end of the day you are responsible for you. When you go to meet God , he’s not going to say that’s ok you have a pass that girl was dressing bad.
            He’s going to say , No you are responsible for you and your behavior.
            God is going to hold you accountable for what you did. You’re deflecting. This post isn’t even about modesty.
            We live in a sinful secular world that we have no control over.
            As Christians we know what God requires and we obey.
            Blaming other people for your sin, doesn’t work with God just like it didn’t work in the garden of Eden.

          • Anon

            THIS. ☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️

        • Anon

          Are you FarmWife’s husband? Because it sure seems like you two are a match made in (I won’t say heaven here).

          Reply
        • Sheila Wray Gregoire

          Wow, I wonder how Jesus managed without having sex! At what point did He break and do something drastic?!!!!

          (Sorry for the snark, but the entitlement that you are showing is amazing, and the lack of insight into your own emotional immaturity as you blame everyone else for your own problems, and think the world revolves around you, is quite astounding. Your wife is a person with her own body and her own feelings and her own needs, and all you have ever talked about is your needs. The women out on the street are not trying to get your attention or want to have sex with you. If you think they do, you’re being super creepy and you need to stop.

          And by the way, you’re right about one thing: real life women will no longer tolerate men who have attitudes like yours.)

          Reply
          • Anon

            You mean that “God’s gift to women” attitude? The “I’m ENTITLED to sex whenever I want” attitude? The overall spoiled rotten, whiny little brat attitude? I’d say yes to all.

        • Anon 3

          I’m a woman who orgasms frequently in my sleep. When I need a release my body knows what to do and takes care of it. Just because it hurts doesn’t mean it is required. If your body truly needed the release, it would do it.

          Reply
          • NG

            This.. very true, Anon.
            My body works the same – certain things happen during sleep, without any effort from my part.
            (That also is why I don’t consider climaxing the most important thing in my future marriage, because I don”t need a man for that physical release.. what I look for, is a human being to love and share my live with.)

        • Faith

          Depressed Dad
          I’m sorry , I don’t know how old you are , but this also sounds like a maturity issue for you.
          You sound immature in your responses and how you’re dealing with this.
          You need Jesus and you need His strength to deal with it in a mature way.
          If you’re wanting to commit suicide there most likely are some other issues going on and you need to seek help.

          We’re encouraging men to treat their spouse right. Maybe you’re in a bad relationship where your spouse isn’t treating you right ,
          But that doesn’t mean obligation sex is ok or forcing yourself on your wife is ok.
          Jesus still wants you to treat your wife , as you would want to be treated ,not like an object.
          Women are not merely sexual objects just to satisfy men. We are people and equal image bearers of God. We were created in God’s image just like men. We are more than our sexuality.
          Have you realized you are more than your sexuality?
          Sex isn’t a need like water and food. If it was we then we wouldn’t be teaching young men to wait before marriage.
          And Paul was celibate and he said it was better to remain celibate like he was but if you couldn’t to get married.
          If Paul was celibate and it is better to be celibate and focus on God, then sex isn’t a need like people make it out to be.
          It’s a privilege for married couples.
          Not an entitlement.
          It’s so supposed to be loving , intimate, and mutual for both.Sex is for women too not just men but the way we experience is different and God made us that way. Women’s experience is just as important as men.
          We are telling men to stop being self absorbed and entitled and start caring about their wives as Jesus cares about the church! That’s deep and serious and many men aren’t obeying it.
          When men care about their wives , most wives have no problem wanting regular sex.
          No one wants to have sex with someone who treats them bad. It’s a no brainer.

          Reply
          • Anon

            Thank you for all of this! This is common sense stuff, but sadly, common sense isn’t as common as it once was.

    • Phil

      Just wow dude. All I got to say.

      Reply
    • FarmWife

      Depressed Dad, I am a Christian wife who agrees with you. The feminist movement has gone way too far and is tearing men down. I am wholly against feminism as it is not biblical. I am amazed how many Christians seem to forget that a Christian wife is called to submit to her husband and this includes sex. A Christian wife is not to make decisions, but is to submit to all of her husbands decisions as the husband is the head of the wife (and Christ is the head of every man and God is the head of Christ). We need to remember God is not a God of chaos, but a God of order. As 1 Cor. 11:9 states woman was created for man’s sake and 1 Peter 3:5-6 reminds us that Sarah called Abraham “Master” and was blessed. I have been calling my husband “master” since we first were married, and do not have a problem with it. He likes it and I feel blessed by it. You are completely correct, if it was up to me, we would be in a sexless marriage. This is why wives are to submit to their husbands.

      Reply
        • FarmWife

          Feminism is people (mostly women, but men too) pushing that women are equal to men. Feminism keeps trying to tell women that they can do everything a man can do, but God designed the male and female body differently. Some jobs tend to be accomplished better by men (like construction, fire fighting, etc) and some jobs tend to be accomplished better by women (like personal assistants, teaching, etc). Feminism tries to tell women they can have it all: a husband, kids, a career, friends, vacations, etc. However, this is a lie. That would be too much for one person to handle.
          For instance women wearing pants came from the feminist movement. Due to my Christian beliefs women are not to wear pants or shorts, they are to be in dresses and skirts only and they need to be within 2″ of the ankle, so as not to lead a brother to sin. My husband owns a farm and we live and work on it. Just today while wearing an ankle length skirt I moved over 200 lbs of feed, helped my husband build the addition on the barn (including being up a ladder and using power tools), cleaned the house, took care of over 40 animals, cooked all the meals, and spent a few hours working in the green house. I have worked outside in skirts and dresses in close to -30 degree weather. There is no excuse for a woman to ever wear pants.
          It all boils down to feminism is trying to strip men of their God given role as the head of the house.

          Reply
          • Anon

            You were helping your husband build a barn addition – “being up on a ladder and using power tools,” to quote your own words – yet in the same breath you say “Some jobs tend to be accomplished better by men (like construction).”

            Let’s see: building a barn. Up on a ladder. Using power tools. What does that sound like? Saying that’s not construction makes as much sense as installing a screen door on a submarine, sweet cheeks.

          • FarmWife

            Again I stated “tend to be”, I never said women (or men) were incapable of doing any job. (There are some instructions in the Bible that women are not to be pastors, elders, or other church leadership, in which I fully believe. See 1 Tim. 2:8 – 3:13) Also I was helping (submitting to) my husband. He told me what to do and I did it.

          • Jo R

            What is the basis of your “Christian belief” that women are to wear only skirts or dresses, and that they must be within two inches of the ankle?

            As for that length being required to not lead a brother into sin, Matthew 5 quite clearly says that lust is the problem and sin of the person doing the LOOKING, not the person being LOOKED AT.

          • FarmWife

            The basis of my Christian belief that women are to wear skirts and dresses only and must be within two inches of the ankle is Biblically based. All the scriptures that talk about modesty and how a Christian is to handle themselves such as 1 Cor. 6:19-20, 1 Tim. 2:9-10, Romans 12:2 and many more.

            Also we attend a church that requires women to wear dresses and skirts only and that they must be within two inches of the ankle. We are not the only church that does this. Churches that do this include some Baptist, some Pentecostal, Mennonite, Amish, and more. Scripture says that Christians are to submit to church leaders.

            Have you ever noticed how when a women wear pants how tight they are around all her curves (her hips, waist, butt, and thighs)? Have you ever noticed when a women wears pants how it shows the form where her privates are and where the leg starts? Did you know it only became acceptable for a woman to wear pants in the middle of the last century? Can you image Mary riding on a donkey pregnant wearing hip hugger jeans with her thong hanging out and the top of her breast popping out of her low cut top?

          • Jo R

            Clearly no one has taught you that the verses about dressing “modestly” are not referring to SEX. They are referring to WEALTH. Gold jewelry and pearls are obviously speaking directly of money to buy such items, and elaborate braiding speaks to having lots of leisure time as well as the servant needed to do up one’s hair. CONTEXT MATTERS, which you keep ignoring. Please try to remember that the NT was written to the first-century Greco-Roman world, not to the twentieth century.

            As for the ankle-length skirts, that’s your choice, and obviously your church’s choice, but neither of those facts make the idea BIBLICAL. And from where I and lots of other people sit, your “church leaders” sound an awful lot like the Pharisees that Jesus soundly, and repeatedly, condemned: “They tie up heavy loads that are hard to carry and put them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves aren’t willing to lift a finger to move them” (Matthew 23:4).

            Part of why people wore the style of clothes they did in biblical times was the immensely time-consuming nature of producing fabric. They did not waste a square inch of a woven piece of cloth by cutting armscyes and other such shapes, so they just used the entire rectangle and made only those slits and seams necessary to accommodate arms and necks, similar to “bog jackets” that still are made today.

          • FarmWife

            So based on what you are saying a Christian does not need to dress modestly as there are no guidelines in the Bible for it? It becomes a question on how short is too short? Ankle length? Knee Length? If a woman bends over in a short skirt and exposes her underwear, it is the guy’s fault that he lusts and no sin is placed on the woman? Where is the line crossed? What is okay and not okay?
            I grew up going to a strict private school with a strict dress code. The dress code was black and white, very clean cut. Our church keeps these rules so the men can focus on God, not the woman in short shorts or a tight top. I like dress codes as I have always been under one and it makes it easy to not concentrate on my clothes. We are called to set our minds on things above (Heaven) not on what am I wearing today.

          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            That’s wonderful that you like dress codes! Good for you.

            But you may also be interested in knowing that when both men and women believe that lust is every man’s battle, BOTH men and women have worse marriages and worse sex lives. And when teen girls are told that they can be stumbling blocks for boys, bad things happen long term.

            You know, you can actually talk to girls about dressing with respect without telling them they’re stumbling blocks for boys. You seem to have very win/lose thinking: someone has to lose for someone to win. You may want to ask yourself why. Why do you believe someone has to be in charge? Why do you believe someone has to be responsible for another’s sin? Why do you not seem to be able to imagine a world where Christians have the character of Jesus and follow Him?

            It doesn’t sound like you even know what I’m talking about. I had a friend who said his favorite colour was red. He loved red. Then he did a colour test at the age of 15, and learned he was colour blind and couldn’t see red. What he thought was red wasn’t actually red.

            I feel like that’s what you may be going through as well. I feel like you may think you understand love and intimacy, but you’ve actually never even conceptualized them, because you can’t seem to imagine a world that doesn’t operate without someone in charge or someone being threatened. I’m sorry for that. Please know, that’s not of Jesus.

          • FarmWife

            I was taught the girls were stumbling block for boys and boys were stumbling blocks for girls. That road goes both ways. I believe that someone has to be in charge because of the Bible says so. Again we have a God of Order not a God of Chaos. We have visited churches in the past (due to being out of the area due to family events) and seen women dressed so inappropriately. The last time a woman in her 40’s had on yoga pants (I think that what they are called) and another woman in her 40’s or 50’s had a skirt on that showed way more of her upper thigh than it covered. I wanted to gorge my own eyes out, cover my husbands and tell my girls to close theirs. I was left to answer my daughters questions about “Why can they wear that and called themselves saved?” “Wasn’t she embarrassed everyone could see that?” Do you think Jesus would have okayed this at the temple?

          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            Can you show me where the Bible says that someone has to be in charge? Especially since Jesus said the opposite in Matthew 20:25-28? You seem to be making a lot of statements about “obviously the Bible says this”, but you have also repeatedly said things that are not in the Bible, as if they are. I’m wondering if you realize this? That much of you believe is in the Bible isn’t there? And that Jesus actually taught the opposite? (Like “head of the house” isn’t in the Bible. And “head” doesn’t mean authority, but unity.)

          • FarmWife

            It is not about being in charge as much as it is about order. God has placed an order as to how He wants his church to run.
            A great starting point is 1 Cor. 14:34-35 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. (Before someone says “that was written to one church” see 1 Tim. 2:11-12 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. [least not forget 1 Peter 3:4 describing a Christian wife having “the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit.”] This is repeated throughout the NT.) If you read 1 Tim. 2:8 – 3:13, it gives you the qualifications of elders, deacons and men and women in the church. Deacons and elders must be of only one wife. Hebrews 13:17a states “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account.” The leaders of the church are to be men and the non-leaders (some men and all women) are to obey and submit to them.
            The marriage relationship is to reflect the relationship between Jesus and the Church. The husband reflects Christ while the wife reflects the Church. Put in all the verses I have already mentioned about wives submitting to their husbands and you see the order God created. This is not about control but is about order.

          • Jo R

            So how exactly are “silent” women supposed to prophesy in church gatherings, as Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 11?

            Do they use sign language? Do the hula? Write out the words on big sheets of paper? Or maybe they should whisper the words in their husbands’ ear then he repeats it out loud?

            Paul appears to contradict himself between chapters 11 and 14, which sounds an awful lot like a lack of order, so the church at large is clearly misunderstanding either or both chapters.

            And why does Priscilla receive praise for teaching Apollo? Again, a contradiction that needs explaining.

            You might consider spending time reading what Greek scholars have to say about all of these passages you’ve named, some of which are incredibly difficult to understand in the original Greek, compared to how simple and straightforward they appear to be in English. But we must all first understand what these books would have meant to their original readers in their original language in the culture they were written to. https://margmowczko.com is a good place to start.

            Skipping straight to twenty-first century English in a modern culture is not prudent.

          • FarmWife

            Women at our church who get a prophesy, write it down and give it to their husband who will then read it out loud. The women at our church tend to get their prophesies during the week, so they have time to write them out and give it to their husband and their husband decides to read it or not. Women are not to make a spectacle of themselves at church. It is one of the fruits of the spirit called self control.

          • Anon

            What’s the point, then? Why would God give a woman a prophecy if all the time, He meant a man to deliver the message? Why not just give it right to the man, if the woman is too inferior to speak it? That makes about as much sense as using s lit match to see how much gas you have.

          • Jo R

            Where does the Bible say someone has to be in charge?

            Jesus had not one but TWO women uncover and let down their hair to dry His feet. In that culture, that was the equivalent of a woman stripping off all of her clothing. Did He tell them to cover up?

            Just because most of the rest of Christendom does not endorse your particular ideas for dress codes does not mean we are all unsaved. Think of Romans 14: “Welcome anyone who is weak in faith, but don’t argue about disputed matters. One person believes he may eat anything, while one who is weak eats only vegetables. One who eats must not look down on one who does not eat, and one who does not eat must not judge the one who does, because God has accepted him. Who are you to judge another’s household servant? Before his own Lord he stands or falls. And he will stand, because the Lord is able to make him stand.”

          • JoB

            Two women went to church to pray.

            One prayed, “God, I thank you that I am not like other women— with their jeans and yoga pants and exposed thighs—even like the scantily dressed woman in front of me. I always wear modest clothing and make sure that my skirts are long enough.”

            The other woman, who was dressed very inappropriately, prayed, “God, have mercy on me, a sinner.”

            Which one does the Bible say went home justified?

            ——

            A pastor invited Jesus to eat lunch in the church fellowship hall with all the elders and deacons. While they were eating, a woman in short shorts and a tank top fell at Jesus’ feet, weeping, and dried his feet with her unkempt hair. The pastor’s wife said to herself, if this man were truly God, he would know what a grossly inappropriate sinner is touching him. But Jesus embraced the inappropriate woman, full of love and without embarrassment.

            ——

            We can argue about OT law vs NT law vs ceremonial law vs moral law etc, etc, but what truly matters is our heart. Man looks on the outward appearance, God looks at the heart. Your clothes may be right, but is your heart? Do you have the courage to examine your own heart?

            If you truly believe all that you have said in this conversation, there is a reason you have engaged here. You could have gone elsewhere where you would experience more agreement with your beliefs. You sound like a strong woman, in body and mind— I pray that God will give you the strength and courage you need. He’s not finished with you yet, your story still has many chapters to go (I’m guessing you married young, and you’re not very old now) Don’t let yourself be distracted from self-examination by judgment of others. If your beliefs are true, they will stand up to questions and testing.

          • FarmWife

            I have never prayed like that in my life. I do have the courage to examine my own heart. I recently (last week, I think) asked God to examine my heart and expose any wicked way inside of me. If you truly pay attention to the sermons at church, the Holy Spirit will convict you if you are in sin.
            As far as washing feet, this is something I have personally done several times as a teen (at my church and at the Christian camp I worked at). Few teens have the humility and maturity to humble themselves to do it.
            I fondly remember just a couple of months ago our pastor’s 45 minute sermon on wives submitting to their husbands. I was not convicted at all of not submitting to my husband. I have sincerely done the best I can with the circumstances I have been given.
            You have to remember it is by grace we have been saved through faith (Eph. 2:8) and faith without works is dead(James 2:14-26).

          • JoB

            Perhaps you haven’t prayed a prayer like that, but has it been your heart attitude? Is it what has been modeled for you by your family and church? A sense of satisfaction, or consolation, in following rules and being religious? An attitude of contempt or disgust towards those who don’t conform to a very specific set of rules, or nonessential matters of scriptural interpretation? That instead of feeling compassion for a woman who is dressed inappropriately, you feel outrage?

            The story of the woman who washed her feet with her tears is not intended to instruct us to wash others’ feet; it was a story intended to show that Jesus wasn’t impressed by religious righteousness, but by a broken and contrite heart, wrapped in a very sinful package that religious people were disgusted by.

            I think I understand what you mean when you say you are doing the best you can with the circumstances you have. But I feel the need to warn you that you are in danger if you examine your heart and find little or no compassion or grace to extend to others, especially those who are outside of your circle. If you have no grace to give to others, have you truly received grace?

          • FarmWife

            I believe once someone becomes saved that God works through them to change them. 2 Cor. 5:17 says “Therefore if anyone is in Christ he is a new creature; the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come.” Yes, I have grace towards others, but do not think it is acceptable to allow another Christian to live in sin.When you have someone who goes to church weekly and then chooses to work at the topless coffee drive through, or go around town wearing tight revealing clothes, I believe the Church (God’s followers) has the right to stand up and confront this person. I am finding a lot of people go to church every Sunday acting as though they are Christians but spend the rest of the week living in and of the world. These people I do not have grace for, because they know what they do is wrong. They are actively living in sin. I have lots of grace to the Christian, who is trying to do the best they can to actively avoid sin and fall short.

          • Anon

            Wow! If you have women in your church who choose to work at a ‘topless coffee drive through’ during the week…all I can say is you are attending the weirdest church I’ve ever heard of. And that’s saying something!

            So is this a REAL problem in your church, or is this just another example of your tendency to produce extreme examples?

          • FarmWife

            The situation of the topless coffee drive did not happen at our church, but I heard about it happening at another local church (grant this church allows people to dress however they want and is not concerned about modesty).

          • JoB

            There is a difference between lovingly rebuking sin in someone you actually know and have a relationship with in Christian fellowship and silently judging as “gross and ungodly” a total stranger who you crossed paths with at a feed store. I assume the woman in the feed store was not a member of your church?

            As for the inappropriately dressed women at the church you visited, did you take time to learn anything about them? Their names? How long they had been saved? How much of an opportunity they had to study the Bible? What other sins the Lord had given them victory over already? Did you have enough information to determine they truly weren’t doing the best they could on that day with the circumstances they’d been given?

            Once you got to know them, Did you do anything to help them grow and change? Is there a time limit on the transforming work of the Holy Spirit— at least, the outward appearance part? After you get saved, how long do you have to get your act cleaned up?

            If you were in sin, how would you like another believer to approach you? With kind correction? Or by silently meditating on how sinful and disgusting you are? Are you treating others the way you would want to be treated?

            Please, take these questions seriously. I know you know your way around the Bible— please, do a study of the Pharisees. Honestly consider if you have been raised to think and act like a Pharisee. If you see sins of pride, self-righteousness, lack of love and legalism in your life, please repent and ask God to show you a new way and give you a new heart. I know I’m just a random stranger on the internet, but I hope you will at least think it over.

            [and I must ask… is there *really* a topless drive thru coffee bar in your town?? Do you live in Las Vegas??]

          • FarmWife

            We live in a small town on the edge of a large city and yes, there are at least 4 topless drive thru coffee bars that I know of. No we do not live in or near Las Vegas. We are less than a one hour drive to Canada.

          • JoB

            I hope my curious last question doesn’t distract from considering everything I wrote before…. All the questions that came before are the important part. 😉

            That’s certainly disturbing that such a business is real and is flourishing in your area. If the gossip you heard about the woman who works there is 100% true, I certainly hope the true believers in her life pursue her like a lost sheep, a lost coin, a lost child, and remind her that Jesus wants something much better for her than this decision that’s dangerous to both her body and her soul. I hope that they neither tell her it’s okay, nor that they go around gossiping about her sinfulness. (A funny thing about gossip, though— people love it because it distracts them from taking a look at their own, more mundane sins.)

          • FarmWife

            I don’t believe it was gossip. I believe our pastor was talking about it in a sermon and had tied it into the sermon. That part of the sermon stuck with me as I can’t hardly understand someone acting like that.

          • JoB

            One more thing— do a study of how Jesus responded to sinners. Every single sinner he encountered, if they were Jewish as he was, had been taught God’s law from childhood, since it was a theocratic society. They couldn’t claim in any way that they didn’t know any better, they knew they were doing wrong— that’s why the Pharisees were so condemning of them.

          • FarmWife

            If you remember the woman at the well. Jesus told her to “Go and sin no more”. Jesus also repeatedly preached “Repent for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand.” When a Christian finds themselves in sin they are to repent and are not to go do that sin again. And yes, I get slip ups happen.
            As for the lady we saw at the church we visited, no I did not speak to her. (In fact no one from that church came up and introduced themselves to us.) I heard her talking about the small group she was in and being in church every Sunday.
            No, there is not a timeline on cleaning up your act once one becomes saved. However, as James states faith without works is dead. We are not saved by our works, but the works show our faith. As Christians we are to show the fruits of the spirit. I got saved at 5 years old and my act did not need a lot of cleaning up (how many 5 year old are smoking, doing drugs, cursing, fornicating, murdering, etc?). Yes, I had to deal with sins like lying. When I was a teen I remember people telling my parents how lucky they were to have such an easy kid who doesn’t get into trouble. Romans 3:23 states “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Romans 6:23 states “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

          • JoB

            I am not saying that grace towards sinners means approving of sin or celebrating license. My concern (honestly, fear) for you is that you seem fixated on outward appearance of virtue and oblivious to the coldness in your own heart that your words here seem to express. Maybe I am wrong, but you don’t show any concern or grief over others’ sin— just disgust and almost as if you will be contaminated by just looking at an outwardly sinful person. And you have not reserved your contempt for wayward or hypocritical Christians alone, but for really everyone who crosses your path looking sinful.

            Do you think the Pharisees were drinking and fornicating and murdering and dressing inappropriately? Outwardly, they were perfect! Their theology was perfect! Jesus said their teaching was correct— but their hearts were full of unseen sin, like hatred, pride, unforgiveness, and lack of love. He said they were like whitewashed tombs, full of death.

            We praise Jesus today in hymns with the term “friend of sinners,” but it was a huge insult when the Pharisees hurled it at him! Jesus was hanging with the wrong crowd, including prostitutes! How do you think they looked? Do you think the first thing Jesus said to them was, go put some clothes on?

            What do you think he meant when he said that it’s the sick who need a doctor, not the healthy? Why did he tell the Pharisees that crooks and prostitutes were entering the kingdom of heaven before them?

            Have you ever heard the testimony of someone who was saved out of a worldly, rebellious lifestyle? Have you ever heard them say it was because someone looked at them scornfully and said you’re disgusting, gross and ungodly? No, it was because someone said there is a Savior who loves you infinitely, who sees all you were created to be, who died to save you out of your mess!

            When was the last time you shared the LOVE of Christ with someone? When was the last time your church welcomed a new adult convert who didn’t have family inside the church? You don’t have to answer me, but please, think about it! Please, read the gospels and pay attention to Jesus’ warning to the Pharisees!

          • JoB

            Put another way— do you think that visible, active sins are the only sins? Do you think that lying, stealing, murdering and fornicating are sins, but hatred, pride, unforgiveness, lust or selfishness are not? Would you assault someone to stop him from sinning? Of course not, because then you would be sinning yourself! Why then would you allow yourself to respond to someone’s sin by allowing contempt and pride to fester in your heart? You SHOULD hate sin, you should warn others who are in sin, plead with them, encourage them, reach out to them. But this cold, critical, contemptuous heart! It’s heartbreaking! Your hatred of sin can lead to righteousness that reaches out in mercy and lifts others up, or it can blacken your own soul. When was the last time you moved past your revulsion for sin and were moved to HELP the sinner?

          • JoB

            Ok, one last thing and I will be quiet (you’re probably thinking, finally! 😅)

            After googling with much trepidation, did the woman you heard about start working as a “bikini barista”? I had never heard of that before, and I agree, that is absolutely appalling. But I’ll tell you what: if someone I loved, my baby sister or my best friend from church, went and signed herself up to be degraded and put in bodily danger by joining the sex trade, my reaction wouldn’t be, “there oughtta be a dress code.” I would be PARKED in the drive thru, sobbing and begging her to leave with me. I wouldn’t leave until they called the police to haul me away. I would beg her to tell me what she needs the money for, explain to me why she is doing this risky and degrading thing. I would tell her she is worth so much more than this, and beg her to let me help her. Of course, she might be the one to call the police and throw me out— but I would be back the next day. I wouldn’t go quietly if it was someone I loved.

          • FarmWife

            I understand what you are saying but my life has not been like most peoples. I went preschool through 12th grade in a Christian school and then to Christian college, worked at a Christian camp, went to church almost all of my life and am rarely out in public. The reality is I would not know how to talk to a prostitute, or how to act around one either. My whole life has been centered around God and the Bible. I have had a few people over the years tell me I have been way to sheltered. I feel truly blessed that I have never had to live without God. Even at the farmer’s market, the booth next to us is a local church. On occasions when someone asks about our beliefs (we only go out as a family, I am never out of the house without my husband and kids) my husband takes the lead. He is the one sharing the gospel. Sometimes a woman will direct a question at me and I will answer and my husband will correct if something is off.

            I saw a video at Sunday school one week where this lady was a prostitute and someone shared the gospel with her and she committed her life to Christ and her ministry is now preaching to prostitutes. She knows and understands the lifestyle in a way I (thank God!) never will. It can be hard to talk to someone who you have no to little in common.

          • Anon

            Thank you for your honesty. I know it can be really scary to talk to people from a totally different background, and it sounds as if you don’t get much chance to talk to anyone without your husband around anyway. (Is this a rule at your church? It would seem to limit the opportunity to share with women, since many women won’t be comfortable discussing personal matters with a strange man!)

            I was home educated and, like you, was raised in church all my life – but I’ve had conversations with all kinds of people. Yes, it’s been scary sometimes, but God has promised to give us wisdom and that we have the Holy Spirit with us to guide us – so I just keep asking for wisdom, and that I can show Christ’s love to the people I talk to.

            That woman you judged for her immodest dress, who goes to church every week – did it occur to you that she might not yet be a Christian? I know many people who have gone to church regularly for a while before they committed their lives to Christ. She may be someone who is eager to learn more, but not yet fully understanding the Gospel. I was in a church once where a woman used to dress like that. AFTER she became a Christian, she started to change the way she dressed – not because she’d been hit with a dress code the moment she walked through the door, or judged for ‘making men lust’ by her clothing, but because God was at work in her life.

          • FarmWife

            Our church has about 50/50 women who drive. I never go anywhere with out my husband because I do not have a license. As it is, it takes 20 minutes (one direction) to walk to our next door neighbors. Walking into the city is not logical.
            It is hard for me to comprehend someone would go to church for a long period of time and not give their life over to the Lord. Why would someone want to live in sin? Women at our church are not hit with a dress code the moment she walks into our church. In fact yesterday a young lady came in wearing pants. She was visiting family who goes to the church. Yesterday no one said anything to her about her clothing; however, if she comes to church again wearing pants, an elder or other leadership will address the issue of her needing to wear a skirt or dress.

          • Jo

            The first step takes place in your heart, before you speak a word. Repent privately to the Lord for failing to love, and ask him to give you love and compassion for people in bondage to sin. Let the Lord lead you, perhaps the first step is when you catch yourself being grossed out or shocked by someone’s appearance or behavior— stop and ask the Lord to give you compassion, to help you to see them as Jesus sees them. Pray for them, just a simple “God please bless that woman and keep her safe today. I don’t know her story, but you do. Let her learn more about you today.” It has helped me to remember that there are many people who don’t have anyone praying for them… if you’re not sure how you could reach out to someone, start with prayer. You don’t have to have all the answers or life experiences— sometimes a smile, a prayer, introducing yourself to someone with a kind word or word of blessing, sharing your extra food with someone who looks hungry… any of those could be a first step.

            Keep reading the Bible as a whole book, not just individual verses or passages— try to identify overarching themes. Focus on the gospels and the words and actions of Jesus. As Anon said, the most powerful transformations are the ones that start in the heart and work their way out. Keep asking God to work on your heart.

            The greatest way you can give honor and glory to the Lord is by letting him change your heart so that it looks like Jesus’ heart. Remember what we learn from 1 Cor 13: doctrine, knowledge of scripture and good works are worth nothing if they are not combined with love.

            God is not limited by any believer’s lack of experience or training. It’s good to be innocent about the evil that is in the world. You have been warned away from worldliness, and that’s a good thing! However, I am not sure you have received as much instruction about sins of the heart. If sin is like disease, outward sins like immodesty and violence are like a disgusting skin disease: everyone can see it, and you yourself can’t deny it or cover it up for long. Anyone with a little common sense— whether they are Christian, Muslim or atheist— would probably say it’s bad to work in a strip club, or be a drug addict, or brawl with your spouse. But sins of the heart (pride, hatred, selfishness, coveting and the like) are more like cancer— no one can see them, they can hide under a very respectable appearance, and they are therefore more deadly. Only by knowing what symptoms to watch out for (from knowing the heart of scripture) and the diagnosis of a wise physician (the Holy Spirit) can deliver us from those diseases.

            As Anon said, I am afraid you have drawn some wrong conclusions— like that anyone who attends church regularly must have received the gift of salvation and the Holy Spirit. Or that gossip can’t be shared from a pulpit, or in a Bible study or prayer meeting. Jesus said we must not look at appearances or even doctrine alone— we must look at FRUIT, the life of the person, to know if he is a sheep, or a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

          • FarmWife

            My husband and I have many times given food or money to people in need. We have both done a lot of volunteer work (with the church, homeless shelters, etc.).
            Growing up I was commonly told to “hate the sin, love the sinner.” When I read the Gospels I see a reoccurring theme Jesus continually preached “Repent for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand.” He did not say “sometime when it is convenient for you repent, until then, go and live in your sin”. Jesus’ “repent” was a command to repent now not sometime in the future. Again He told the woman at the well to “Go and sin no more.” If hating sin is wrong then I guess I am guilty. God set me free from a life of sin. It reminds me of the hymn “Victory in Jesus”.

          • JoB

            I was just trying to say that if you aren’t able to speak to people who are different than you or outside your community, you could still intercede for them when you come in contact with them, rather than thinking angry, condemning thoughts about them. I am truly sorry that you have had so many years of religious teaching but no one has taught you about God’s love for sinners, even while they are still dead in their sins and rebellion, the love of the Father for the prodigal son. The secret thoughts of our hearts are laid bare before God, and I guess I think God would be more pleased by the thought, “Father, please show mercy to that sinful person and help her find the right path,” than he would by, “That person is so evil and disgusting, I wish I could gouge out my own eyes rather than look at her sinful appearance.” But, perhaps that’s where we will have to agree to disagree. From your other posts, it sounds like you have a lot on your mind as well as going on in your life, and I will pray for you.

            PS. Jesus didn’t tell the Samaritan woman at the well to “go and sin no more”— he actually never told the Samaritan woman to repent. He said that phrase to the woman caught in adultery, after he told all the virtuous religious leaders that the one without sin could cast the first stone at her.

          • Faith

            Amen Jo B!

          • Jo R

            I’m saying the”modesty” verses you’re quoting are not addressing sexual temptation. They were written to upper-class women who were flaunting their wealth in front of lower-class women and female slaves.

            I think we can draw general conclusions about propriety of behavior, including how we dress, from overall scriptural principles of considering others’ needs above our own, loving our neighbor as ourselves, and so on. But the NT is silent on whether women must wear skirts and how long they must be if they’re worn.

            If men need women to dress a certain way to prevent the men from ogling the women, there are lots worse problems in your church than skirt lengths.

          • Anon

            Are you aware that it is possible to wear clothing that is neither a skirt that comes within 2 inches of the ankle OR skin tight jeans and a low-cut crop top? There are plenty of clothing in between that is neither provocative nor cumbersome.

            I do a manual job and would not be allowed, for reasons of health & safety, to wear such a long skirt at work. Instead, I wear trousers that are loose fitting with tunic tops (high necked and coming down well over my hips). I guess you probably still think this is ‘immodest’.

            Interestingly, when I was younger, I regularly wore your kind of clothing – loose fitting, ankle length skirts and loose fitting, high necked, long sleeved tops made out of thick material to try to hide my figure as much as I could. And I got assaulted by men on a regular basis. Men who would call themselves ‘Christian’ and who believed that a wife was to submit to her husband and that it was women who caused men to lust. So it does seem that the issue some men have over lust is not entirely due to women ‘flaunting’ themselves…

          • FarmWife

            I personally never been assaulted. That was a sin on the part of the men who did it, and was not your fault.

          • Jo R

            I almost feel like you should be asking, “What was she wearing?”

            Because from everything else you’ve written here, you come awfully close to making it sound like women can cause men to sin.

          • Anon

            I’m glad you don’t think the assaults were my fault. But that leaves us with a little problem. In your earlier post, you said “If a woman bends over in a short skirt and exposes her underwear, it is the guy’s fault that he lusts and no sin is placed on the woman? Where is the line crossed? ”

            So obviously, sometimes you think the woman is at least partly to blame for the man’s lust. So where IS the line crossed? If my skirt had been 2.5 inches above my ankle, instead of 2 inches, would I have been to blame? And if I were – what if it had originally been 2 inches above and I didn’t realise it had shrunk half an inch in the wash – would I still be to blame? At what point does a guy lusting over me become partly my fault?

            I’m not saying Christian women have the right to dress however they want – just that they are responsible for how they dress and men are responsible for how they respond to that dress. If I were to dress in a deliberately provocative, attention-seeking manner, I would be 100% responsible for the way I dressed. But if a man were to see me dressed like that and lust, he would be 100%responsible for the way he lusted. One person’s sin does not excuse another person’s sin. And that’s the problem with these legalistic dress codes – as soon as you make a woman responsible for preventing men lusting, then any assault becomes about her, what she was wearing/doing to make him behave that way.

          • FarmWife

            Even in cases of rape, I never put the blame on the women. Yes in SOME cases she should have done things differently (dressed more modestly, not gotten drunk, left herself alone with a guy, etc.); however, it is the rape itself is the guy’s sin. If a woman is putting herself on display then the sin of immodesty falls on her.
            A wonderful thing I heard from a pastor in my teens was (this was aimed at all girls) if you would not be comfortable in front of your (earthly) father in it, then you should not be wearing it. I personally feel more comfortable with set rules. I find it easier to live with.

          • Jo R

            “I never” directly contradicts “in SOME cases.”

            Period. End of statement. Either the men are wholly responsible for their sin (and illegal act), or they are not. There is no possibility of sharing blame in this case.

          • Anon

            See what I mean about faulty logic?

          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            Okay, it sounds like you’re conflating two things. Saying that someone is equal to someone else is not saying someone is the same as someone else. I believe that men and women are equal; I don’t believe they’re the same. So when you say that “feminism is ruining everything” for instance, but you define feminism in a way that most people wouldn’t, it may be better to be clear about what you mean. Christian feminists certainly don’t claim that women are the same.

            As for head of the household, can you show me where that is in Scripture?

          • FarmWife

            Ephesians 5:22-24
            22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.
            1 Corinthians 11:2-16 (for time sake I will hit the highlights)
            3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. 8 For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; 9 For indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake.

            Add in all the verses about wives submitting to their husbands and the husband is the head of the house.

          • Jo R

            As with Ephesians 5:23, which I explained earlier in a long response, the Greek word used for “head” in 1 Cor. 11:3 (three occurrences) simply DOES NOT MEAN “BOSS.” It means “source,” like the “head of a river” or a “trail head.”

            All Christians are to submit to ONE ANOTHER. It is simply FALSE that submission goes in only one direction.

          • FarmWife

            So you do not believe in a wife submitting to her husband? You do not believe in a husband being the head of the house? Do you also believe that Jesus is over God? Or that the Holy Spirit is above Jesus? Do you believe in a God of order or a God of chaos?

          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            You seem to think that someone needs to be in charge. Actually, that’s not true. What can happen in a marriage is that two people run after Jesus, and listen to the Holy Spirit together! in 30 years of marriage, my husband has never had to make the final decision, because we talk it through, pray about it, and it works wonderfully!

            Also, the Greek word for “head” that is used in this context does not mean authority; it means unity–exactly what I’m talking about. And no where in Scripture does it say that the husband is the head of the house.

          • FarmWife

            Your marriage is very different than mine. Within weeks of getting married, my husband sat me down and explained to me that my thoughts, feelings and opinions do not matter. He was called to be the head of the house and make the decisions. I was called to submit to him. Yes, sometimes he makes bad decisions, and that is on him and not me. I have never told my husband that he was wrong or that I was right. I would never speak to my husband that way.

          • Jo R

            So in other words, the last decision a woman gets to make is to utter the words “I do” at the wedding ceremony. After that, she has no choice in anything ever again.

            Again, not a great advertisement for Christianity, and it certainly doesn’t jive with what Jesus Himself said was His mission: to free captives, give sight to the blind, and free the oppressed.

            In fact, your “gospel” is no gospel at all, and it brings together the worst tendencies of every culture in all of human history.

            No thanks.

          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            Oh, Farmwife, I’m so sorry! I don’t know if you know this, but that is actually the definition of abuse. You are in an abusive marriage, and I encourage you to get help.

            When women believe that their opinions do not matter as much as their husband’s, terrible things happen to marital satisfaction and sexual satisfaction (as you found).

            It’s actually quite possible to live with a man as a partner–where you’re intimate and decide things together! It’s beautiful.

            What you are describing is slavery. It is being in slavery once again, and God told us not to put on the yoke of slavery again. Your husband is abusing you. He is spiritually abusing you at minimum; he sounds like he is sexually abusing you too. I am so very sorry. You do not need to put up with this.

          • FarmWife

            So following the Bible and submitting to my husband is abuse? Are we reading from the same Bible? My husband does not beat me. Abuse is when a husband throws his wife into the wall, hits her, punches her, etc.(Although rare wives sometimes do this to their husbands). That is not my marriage.

          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            Actually, no, FarmWife. Abuse is far more than just physical. Abuse is any attempt to control another person and take away their choice and agency, to make them do your will.

            Here, for example, is a definition of spiritual abuse, from Scot McKnight:

            It is characterized by a systematic pattern of coercive and controlling behaviour in a religious context…

            This abuse may include:

            manipulation and exploitation,
            enforced accountability,
            censorship of decision making,
            requirements for secrecy and silence,
            coercion to conform, [inability to ask questions]
            control through the use of sacred texts or teaching,
            requirement of obedience to the abuser,
            the suggestion that the abuser has a ‘divine’ position,
            isolation as a means of punishment,
            and superiority and elitism.

            Physical abuse is an attempt to control and threaten physically, but we can also threaten and control people in other ways, including misusing Bible verses. When your husband tells you that you aren’t allowed to have opinions of your own, that is taking away your agency and that is controlling you. Remember that God gives us complete free will. He does not take away our right to our own opinions (though he invites us to get our minds transformed). And God also tells us that we have no mediator between him and us, except Christ Jesus. That means that your husband is not your mediator with God. He can’t be God to you. He can’t stand in the place of Jesus. He can’t tell you what’s right or wrong. That is the Holy Spirit’s job, not your husband’s, and for your husband to do that is actually a form of idolatry.

            It is not following the Bible to allow someone to control you or tell you what to do. That is following a man-made system of control. That is not what the Bible calls for. The Bible tells you to listen to Jesus’ voice (John 10) and to follow Him (Acts 5:29). The Bible tells you that you are a precious child of God, and you are worth as much as your husband (Galatians 3:28) and you can know God as well as your husband. God speaks to both women and men (Acts 2:17). What you are following is not the Bible, but a man-made system called patriarchy, which puts men above women and in charge of women. It came about because of sin, and Jesus comes to restore right relationships. You are clinging to a sinful way of relating, rather than to a Jesus-way of relating. I hope you can get free and realize who you are in Christ!

          • FarmWife

            I have never said, implied, or believed that my husband is my mediator. I have always believed Jesus was my mediator for me. I willing submit to my husband. This is what I find in the Bible. The very thought of being unsubmissive is stomach turning and I can feel the Holy Spirit convicting me on thinking of being unsubmissive. I have to stick to my beliefs and convictions. I still do not see it as abuse.

          • Anon

            I am so very sorry. But no longer surprised that you feel no attraction toward your husband. I wouldn’t feel any attraction toward mine if he told me my thoughts & feelings did not matter. This is not how marriage was meant to be. This is not a husband loving his wife as Christ loved the church.

          • Mara R

            I also feel very bad for you, FarmWife, hearing that you were told that your feelings and opinions do not matter.

            I think it would be better to be alone, with my thoughts and feelings, not having someone to share them with, than to have my thoughts and feelings so devalued by another person, especially one that I was supposed to have be intimate with.

            I hope that you and your husband work this out, that he becomes aware of how Un-Christ like this attitude it.

            Because Jesus is very acquainted with our thoughts and feelings. He carries our burdens and sorrows.

            You spouse will not only NOT carry your feelings and sorrows, he is unwilling to even know what they are. That has got to be the most lonely thing ever.

          • Emmy

            I’m so sorry to hear how your husband sat you down and explained to you that your thoughts, feelings and opinions do not matter. That’s an awful thing to say to anyone, and certainly to a family member.

          • Mara R

            FarmWife, I believe that you put way more emphasis on human hierarchy than God ever has.

            I believe that you conflate human hierarchy with divine order.

            You keep quoting from the letters (epistles) written by Paul and Peter to specific people groups like the Ephesians and the Corinthians addressing how to make the Words of Jesus do-able in a very human-made hierarchy culture without drawing too much attention from the human hierarchy enforcers (Romans, pagans, and unconverted Jews).

            You ought to go back to the Words of Jesus and see what He thinks about all this hierarchy that you seem to worship.

            Matthew 23
            6 They (referring to the Pharisees or Jewish rulers of the day) love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men. 8 But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 Do not be called [b]leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. 11 But the greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

            ~~~

            You are so intent on making your husband and all men leaders over women that you don’t understand that you are fighting against the very Father, Son, and Holy Spirit that you claim to worship.

            I suggest that you consider the fact that you may be more into Baal worship than into an actual Christian practice.

            Baal means lord. And his worship is all about hierarchy. And that is what you are preaching to us here.

          • Jo R

            I believe all believers are called to mutual submission to all other believers—because that’s what the original Greek says.

            As for wives to husbands, wives were socially required in Greco-Roman culture to act a certain way to avoid shaming their husbands. If newly Christian wives shamed their husbands, then Christianity would be seen as a subversive threat to the Roman Empire. That’s why Paul simultaneously recommends some conforming to the culture while also rethinking it in ways that begin to bring about what God intends in His church.

            If you would take the time to read my response that contains the word “Koine,” I explain further exactly how Paul recommended a Christian way to subvert the dominant non-Christian culture.

            Jesus is not over God. Nor is He under God. He is God.

          • FarmWife

            Yes, they (God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit) are all one, the Trinity. However they are also individuals. I remember hour long discussions on this in Bible class. Among them there is still order. Remember Jesus praying in the garden. He was fully willing to submit to God’s plan (death on a cross). He did say well, we are equal and no I don’t want to die yet. Jesus submitted to God.

          • Jo R

            Yes, Jesus, while living on earth, submitted to the Father. But what He submitted to was decided on and agreed to in eternity past. Since Jesus was fully human, is it any wonder the human in Him was daunted by what lay ahead?

            It cannot possibly be a good idea to take what we cannot possibly comprehend even a little–meaning the exact nature of the interactions of the Father, Son, and Spirit in the Godhead–and try to use them as a model for how humans should interact with one another.

            The best we can do with understanding the exact relations between the Persons of the Trinity is through very imperfect analogies, and while analogies can be helpful to a limited degree, they are not good enough for anyone to make a conclusive statement about how they can be a model in human relationships.

            (And isn’t it interesting how men, and some women, always point to Jesus’s submission to the Father while He was in the Garden of Gethsemane, but these same people never point out that the Persons of the Trinity are always in equal agreement with one another and never have to have “someone in charge” or to “cast the tie-breaking vote”???)

          • Faith

            What are you talking about? Do you think Jesus is separate from God? Jesus , God and the Holy Spirit are one.
            Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the Father.,
            Jesus is God come to us in the flesh !
            Are you a Mormon or Jehovah’s Witness ?

          • Boone

            You get that skirt caught in a hay bailer you can get hurt right quick. If a bull or a hog gets after you you’re going to lose a lot of speed when it counts in a skirt. As for a chain saw…
            You wouldn’t work on my farm dressed like that. Too much chance of getting hurt.

          • FarmWife

            Yes, I live and work on a farm and wear only long skirts and dresses. We do not have a baler (a bailer releases someone from jail while a baler make bales of hay or straw). My husband runs all the equipment (God knows I would never be able to run our tractor which is a triple, yes, triple stick shift). We are on 14 acres with one tree that is taller than me, so a chain saw is not needed. As far as animals, when you hand raise them from a very young age they tend to be sweet and loving. Our biggest animals are domesticated sheep and I have never heard of attack sheep. (I am not referring to wild Sheep, which can attack). The next most dangerous animals we own is a gander (male goose, for all you city slickers) and some toms (male turkeys). I have been cornered by the toms and once got badly pinched once by our gander (during his teens years). There are techniques to humanely correct bad behavior with all animals.
            Just last summer I help the neighbor pull a calf (When the mother cow is no longer able to push the calf out or is in distressed.) in a dress and boots. I have dresses and skirts that are for farm work (they may have stains, hems coming undone, etc [these tend to be my old clothes]) and clothes for going into town and the public in (these tend to be newer clothes). For instance I harvest our crops in boots or shoes, but at the farmers markets I am in heels.

      • Andrea

        Oh, FarmWife, honey, you have GOT TO find your clitoris!

        Reply
      • Jo R

        THIS is why translation (and translations) matters. Because a completely wrong image and associated meaning have been given to Ephesians 5 due to ignoring the connotations of the English words used.

        The original Greek word translated “head” does NOT in any way mean “boss.” Koine Greek has lots of words that mean “boss” in lots of segments of society (government, military, business, etc.), and this passage does NOT use ANY of them. So an entire, and wrong, depiction of marriage has been upheld for centuries now, for so long that most people are going to feel very uncomfortable with what Paul is actually saying in this passage.

        “Head” is being used in conjunction with “body” to indicate unity. As the head cannot function without a body, and as a body is likewise unable to function without the head, so here. Unity is what’s being described, not a hierarchy.

        As for the Ephesians 5 verses addressed to the husband, when one finally understands what the roles were of husbands and wives in the first-century Greco-Roman culture that Paul was writing to, things take on a very different meaning. Paul tells husbands to treat their wives as the men would treat men higher in the social ranking. Paul also tells husbands to take on the much lower social status of women, like making sure slaves provide food and clean clothing (“feeding,” “without spot or wrinkle”). A more complete reversal of social standing in that culture could not be described. Men were to put themselves into the position of having very little honor societally speaking while also elevating their wives to the position of having very high honor societally speaking.

        The fact that so many English translations break up verses 21 and 22 is another issue. In verse 21, the word that is often translated as “submit” (making it a direct command) is actually a gerund (the “-ing” form of a verb), and the true direct-command form of the verb that it’s actually connected to in the Greek is all the way back in verse 18, “be filled with the Spirit.” There are more gerunds in verses 19–20, expanding what it means to “be filled,” including speaking, singing, making music, and giving thanks. Then the last expansion of “be filled” is given in verse 21: submitting to ONE ANOTHER. (I’m guessing husbands submitting to wives would have been fairly uncommon in that culture as well.)

        As for sex, note that in the ever popular 1 Corinthians 7 passage, HER sexual needs are addressed first. Therefore, wives do HAVE sexual needs. It’s up to CHRISTIAN husbands to do what’s necessary to meet them. And unfortunately, too many men think “pleasureless penetration” ought to be sufficient. So men become lazy in bed and concentrate on what fills their own needs, and popular “Christian” books and countless sermons preach that women ought to make these inadequate husbands think they’re great lovers. In other words, these teachings tell women to LIE. Is it hard for a man to hear that he’s not getting it done in bed? I assume so. But decades of pleasureless sex is no less hard for women to endure, especially when women realize that their husbands are being disobedient by ignoring their wives’ needs.

        Bringing women up to equality with men is NOT tearing men down. It is fulfilling the Bible’s vision of what kingdom life should have been for the last two millennia.

        Reply
      • Mara R

        Just a heads up about Abraham and Sarah, FarmWife.

        God also told Abraham to obey Sarah.

        Not submit.

        Obey.

        There was a lot going on in that relationship.
        Be very careful of cherry picking one thing, hyper-focusing on that alone, and ignoring all the context that goes along with it.

        This way we get the Anti-Woman, completely UN-Christian, and UN-Christ like doctrine what you are pushing. It is because of severe cherry picking/hyper-focusing on a few misunderstood verses and ignoring all the context that balances out the select few verses your camp thinks are important.

        Reply
        • Anon

          It also begs a few questions for people who push the headship/submission issue. For instance:

          If women were meant to “help,” not lead, then why did God appoint a woman – Deborah – to be a judge over Israel?

          If women were meant to stay silent, then why did God raise up Esther to speak up on behalf of her people, and thus defy a royal edict and spare an entire race from genocide?

          If women were meant to be submissive, then why did Sapphira submitting to her husband Ananias on keeping tithing money for themselves result in both of them being killed by the Holy Spirit for their disobedience?

          I’d love to see them answer these questions.

          Reply
        • FarmWife

          I never meant to be unclear. In the old law (old testament) Christian wives were not required to submit to their husbands. A wife submitting to her husband is part of the new law. I do not want to live under the old law. Butchering animals for food is hard enough, I can’t imagine having to kill an innocent animal every time I sinned.
          Obviously Sarah was under the old law. However Paul was using her as an example in 1 Peter 3 to encourage women as it says “…you have become her children if you do what is right…” What a wonderful blessing to be called a child of Sarah! (Obviously I am a child of God first.)

          Reply
          • Anon

            Using your logic about the “new law” and how a wife is always to submit to her husband, how do you explain the consequences of Sapphira submitting to Ananias and his foolish decision regarding their tithe? By your logic, the wife submits because the husband makes the final decision (and therefore, the best decision), which must be from God according to His will. If this were true, why did God strike the two of them dead for Ananias’s dumb decision and Sapphira’s complicity in the plan?

          • FarmWife

            The story of Ananias and Sapphira is taken from Acts 5. Acts is the very early start of what the church (not the building , but the people of Christ) is today. This was the transitional phase as Acts 1 starts with Christ had just died and starts with the Holy Spirit coming down. The rule of wives submitting to their husband had not taken place yet. Sapphire was not required to submit to her husband, as that part of the new law was not reveled yet.

          • Anon

            So do you believe that, now the ‘new law’ has been revealed, if your husband asked you to do something wrong, as Ananias asked Sapphira, it would be ok for you to do it?

          • Jo R

            Yes, it’s very convenient to start reading Ephesians 5 at verse 22, not verse 21. Because in verse 21, it’s quite clear that submitting to ONE ANOTHER—that’s all believers to all other believers—is what the “new law” is.

    • Anon

      I have a question for Depressed Dad and Farmwife, since you both agree that Sheila’s definition of a ‘safe guy’ is wrong. Are you seriously saying someone can be a ‘safe’ husband and NOT do these things?

      That would mean advising your daughters or sisters to marry a man who:

      1) watches porn
      2) lusts after other women
      3) believes he’s entitled to use his wife’s body any way he wants
      4) doesn’t care about his wife’s pleasure

      Is this really what you want for your daughters? Is this really how you believe a Christian man is called to behave to his wife?

      (Oh, and your concerns about sexless marriage are groundless – nothing makes a wife keener to have sex with her husband than being married to a man who fulfils Sheila’s definition of a safe husband)

      Reply
      • FarmWife

        I agree with points 1 and 2 as those are sin issues and would need to be dealt with. My issue with point 3 is a husband owns a wife’s body (1 Cor. 7:2). If a husband owns his wife’s body he is entitled to use it anyway he wants to or sees fit. If I own something I can do anything I want with it (paint it, use it, wear it, etc). I can not find a single verse that says what a husband can and can not do to his wife’s body. My issue with point 4 is for women like me who get no pleasure or anything from sex. I have never had an interest in, desire for, or pleasure from sex. Why should my husband be concerned about something that is never going to happen (me having an interest in sex)? I would be completely fine if I never had sex again, so my concerns about a sexless marriage are not groundless.

        And YES, this is what I would want for my daughters: that they believe in God and accept him as their Savior, submit to God, get married and submit to their husbands (including sexually). I would love for my daughters to spend serious amounts of time reading their Bibles, singing hymns, and in prayer in their teens. That was how I was as a teenager and it laid an awesome foundation for my life.

        Reply
        • Anon

          Again, using your line of logic, you would be 100% ok with your husband raping you? That’s your logic here – since he owns you and you are nothing more than his property – an object to be used – he can do whatever he wants with you no matter if it hurts you or not, because that’s his right. Just because there’s a ring on your finger doesn’t mean coercive or forced sex isn’t rape. Consequently, also using the same line of logic, you would be perfectly fine with the same thing happening to your daughters.

          Reply
          • FarmWife

            In the bible sex between a husband and wife is never called rape. Fornication is sex outside of marriage and that is sin. Adultery is having sex with someone who is married, whom you are not married to and that is also sin.
            Yes, my husband can do whatever he wants with me because it is his right as my husband. I understand once my daughters are married their husbands can ask for anything physically and they need to provide it for their husband.

          • Anon

            “I understand once my daughters are married their husbands can ask for anything physically and they need to provide it for their husband.”

            Does this include a threesome, if he asks for it? You did say ANYTHING.

          • FarmWife

            This is why a believer is not to be married with a nonbeliever. A Christian husband will never ask his wife to commit adultery. What I was saying was that a husband has a right to ask for anything with his wife and his wife only and it is the wife’s responsibility to never say “no”.

          • Anon

            This is getting complicated – just to be clear, I am the ‘Anon’ who posted the original question, asking if you agreed with Sheila’s description of a safe man. I am not the Anon who has been responding to you since.

            I think it’s best if I opt out of this thread, as otherwise, it’s going to get ever more confusing knowing who is saying what.

            I am deeply sorry that you have no interest or enjoyment in sex, but considering the way your husband treats you, I’m not surprised. Sex is meant to be a gift from God to the couple, not just to the husband.

          • Anon

            “In the bible sex between a husband and wife is never called rape.”

            Find me one Scripture that explicitly states that marital sex, forced or not, is never rape. Just one. And don’t use the 1 Corinthians 7 tactic on me, either. Find me an explicit sexual law within Scripture that states marital rape is not actually rape, and I’ll show you the Clinton definition of sex.

            Just for context, here is the Scripture from 1 Corinthians 7: “The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.”

            Let’s unpack this. Yes, the Scripture tells us that the husband has conjugal rights, but so does the wife. That means she has the right to refuse sex when she wants – not purposefully to torment him or to use sex as a weapon to manipulate him, and let me be perfectly clear that this is NOT ok no matter if you’re male or female – but if she is tired or physically unable to, or if she experiences sexual pain. And especially if it’s forced. Yes, the Scripture does say “do not deprive,” but consider what comes after that: “by agreement.” That means the husband and wife mutually agree not to have sex if there is a problem, such as sexual pain. Also, think about this: “but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.” That does not mean that the husband gets a free pass to watch porn or lust after other women; he is the only one who is responsible for keeping his pants zipped and his hormones under control. Likewise, it’s not the wife’s responsibility to keep the husband from sinning. That’s on him and him alone. And by the same token, it’s not his responsibility to keep her from sinning; same principle applies. We’re each responsible for our own actions and we have to be held accountable for them.

            This is an excellent, Scripture-backed article (where I adapted some of the talking points above in this comment) that demonstrates why marital rape is NEVER ok – and why the idea of coercive sex, a relationship that sees a spouse as an object to be used and not a person to be cherished, is an extremely flawed view of the relationship between Jesus and His church. https://www.compellingtruth.org/spousal-marital-rape.html

          • FarmWife

            What I was saying I have never found the word “rape” in the bible not once. I personally do not believe rape can happen between a husband and wife. That is a new age law that did not become legal in some states until the 1990’s. This also completely disregards all the verses telling a wife to submit to her husband (Eph. 5:22; Col. 3:18; 1 Tim. 2:11; 1 Peter 3:1-6). None of the submission verses say except for sex. You are taking a few verses out of one book of the Bible and saying verses that line up completely in 4 other books of the Bible are null and void.

            As far as the “Satan may tempt you” has never made since to me. What is Satan going to tempt me with? I have no interest in sex. My enjoyment is reading the Bible, praying and singing hymns. The “lack of self control” Paul is talking about is unclear because one of the fruits of the spirit is self control! Based on what you said I can say no to sex because I have no interest and my husband can live the rest of his life without. This would not be to “torment” him but to free me from something I do not like, want, or need. This would leave me living in sin as I would not be submissive to my husband.

          • Jo R

            I would say you’re taking a few verses (some of them incredibly hard to understand in THEIR ORIGINAL CONTEXT, according to the best Greek scholars out there) and making them override the entire rest of the New Testament. It’s as though you’re reading the JSV, “Jo Standard Version”:

            Matthew 20:25-26: You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those in high positions act as tyrants over them. It must not be like that among you, except, of course, in marriage, fellas (wink, wink), where you get to be as much of a tyrant as you like.

            Matthew 7:12: Therefore, whatever you want others to do for you, do also the same for them, except in marriage, where you can treat your wife as bad as you like, and she doesn’t get to say anything about it!

            Ephesians 5:18-21: Be filled by the Spirit, … submitting to one another in the fear of Christ, except that, as I’m about to explain, “one another” really means only wives have to submit to husbands, and eventually, that rule will be expanded to mean all women submitting to all men.

            Romans 2:11: For there is no favoritism with God, except that persons with penises are obviously way better than persons without penises, to the point that persons without penises don’t deserve anything other than what the penis-owners say they can have.

            Acts 20:35: It is more blessed to give than to receive, except in bed, guys, so make sure you do ALL the receiving and NONE of the giving. That’s what wives are for, after all.

            Matthew 5:28-29: But I tell you, everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. Kidding! Guys, we all know the REAL answer is to force women to cover up and blame our lusting on them if they don’t!

          • Anon for this

            Judges 19:25
            Of course, this is OT so it doesn’t count according to Farmwife, unless it’s her using OT to defend calling her husband master which seems edgingly close to blasphemous if one is not living under the laws of the OT.

            I’m not going to argue translations though, or anything else really after this. It is sad though that your version of understanding the NT is so legalistic- just like that of the pharisees- when Jesus came to free us from the legalities of the OT by sharing the love that God is and showing us how to get back to focusing on the Lord instead of just following rules. I pray your heart can be opened to truth.

          • Mara R

            I’m still trying to get my head around FarmWife’s view of the New Covenant as way more restricting and oppressive to women than the Old Covenant and saying that the New Covenant is so much better.

            This makes no sense whatsoever.

            It was for freedom that Christ set us free (Galatians 5:1). But it appears that there is are those pushing a doctrine that is bewitching people to go back into slavery and subjugation and calling it freedom (Galatians 3:1).

            Wives submitting one way to husbands is not part of the new law. It is how it has always been, especially in the patriarchal Roman times that these letters were written and written to.

            And these letters were not written to re-enforce the cultural subjugation of women of the time but rather to reverse it.

          • Anon

            Thank you for stating that her view that the OT law was less oppressive than the NT law makes no sense. She’s been using some flawed logic in her defense.

          • Jo R

            It’s almost like there’s this assumption that the New Testament was written to male believers only, so all the instructions in how to treat others are referring to how men should treat men. Women, since in this theory are not being addressed anyway, can therefore be treated in any way that men deem necessary, prudent, or sufficient.

            Just more of the “men define the game, decide on the rules, play the game, act as referees, and are therefore the only ones allowed to say whether or not women are abiding all the rules the men created.”

          • Anon

            Jo, I think she’s forgetting one crucial moment in the NT. Who was the first person Jesus appeared to after His resurrection? Mary Magdalene – a woman. He could have chosen any of His disciples (all men) to appear to first, but instead, He appeared to this loyal woman who had stuck by Him when most of the disciples (barring John) scattered to the four winds. And He chose her to tell the rest of the men that He had risen from the dead. That sure doesn’t sound like Jesus thought women were second-rate or inferior. That sounds more like He honored women and chose one especially to spread the good news about His resurrection.

          • Jo R

            Oh yes, and it also omits vital contributions by Deborah, Jael, Phoebe the deacon (yes, that kind of deacon), Junia the apostle (yes, that kind of apostle), and not a few other OT and NT women.

            But the standard line in response seems to be, “Well, yes, OK, but those were the exceptions, not the rule.”

            The funny thing is, as patriarchal as the OT and NT societies were, it would be quite easy to have either simply omitted these contributions by women or even just changed them to men.

            It’s exactly the same thing as the gospels presenting the disciples as cowards between Christ’s death and resurrection. I think the legal term is “hostile witness,” and it really doesn’t help the side the witnesses are testifying against.

          • FarmWife

            Jesus appeared to not just Mary Magdalene but also Mary the mother of James. He appeared to them first as they were currently in route to Jesus’ tomb, as was customary for the women to take care of the job. After appearing to both Mary’s Jesus appeared to the eleven (of the disciples). So there were more men than women to spread the good news. Also back then, just as it is today in parts of the Middle East, women are not allowed to talk to men they are not related to (fathers, husbands, brothers, sons, etc). The women spread the news to the women and the men spread the news to everyone.

          • Jo R

            Jesus wants to set us free, according to Galatians 5:1.

            I find it very concerning that you think the Bible is instead trying to actually enshrine as God’s decreed way some of the worst, most enslaving, bits of cultures from throughout history and around the globe today.

            If those cultures that currently and in history have kept women subjugated to the rules and convenience of men are really the way to go, then Christianity should not be considered so subversive and dangerous by those cultures. It’s just one more voice saying women are little better than property.

            But that’s not what Jesus was bringing into history. He came to “proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set free the oppressed.” And goodness knows that women as a group have certainly been oppressed throughout history.

            Are you aware that in first-century Jewish culture, women were not allowed to testify in court? It’s not surprising at all that Jesus’s twelve main disciples were all male, but what is ABSOLUTELY SHOCKING, to a degree that none of us living in the twenty-first century can remotely begin to understand or appreciate, is that He first appeared to women and HAD THEM PREACH TO MEN. Having women be the first messengers of His resurrection means that He was DIRECTLY CHALLENGING Jewish cultural beliefs. If He wanted to really give the best possible impression to His movement, He would NOT have put women in that position. He would have had culturally-expected men be those important first witnesses. But He didn’t.

            That should give all those who think patriarchy is “God’s way” more than a little bit of pause.

          • Anon

            Let’s have a look at John 20:11-18 here:

            Now Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus’ body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.

            They asked her, “Woman, why are you crying?”

            “They have taken my Lord away,” she said, “and I don’t know where they have put him.” At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.

            He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?”

            Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.”

            Jesus said to her, “Mary.”

            She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher”).

            Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

            Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: “I have seen the Lord!” And she told them that he had said these things to her.

            Jesus literally said to Mary Magdalene, “Go to my BROTHERS,” meaning the disciples. She relayed the news about His resurrection to a bunch of men, on a direct order from Jesus Himself.

          • Mara R

            FarmWife : (Eph. 5:22; Col. 3:18; 1 Tim. 2:11; 1 Peter 3:1-6).

            Hey, I got a list of scriptures for you. (Ro 16:18; I Cor 16:20; II Cor 13:12; I Thes 5:26; I Peter 5:14)

            These all support the Doctrine of the Holy Kiss. As you can see, there are more in my list than is yours. So obviously the Doctrine of the Holy Kiss carries more weight in the New Law than wifely submission.

            But yet, somehow, we all have been ignoring this important doctrine. Must be some New Age B.S. that has made us forget about this doctrine.

            We need to all repent right now and start taking this law seriously and start greeting each other with the Holy Kiss that Paul and Peter have both written so much about.

          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            Okay, so let’s say the wife is 2 days postpartum and the husband wants intercourse. You’d be okay with that for your daughters?

            And you think God is happy about that for you?

          • FarmWife

            I do believe it is a husband’s right to expect his Christian wife to submit to him. My husband believes a woman is unclean during her period (the worst periods are always after you give birth), and will not touch me. I assume all Christian men feel this way.

          • Anon

            Here’s a clue: if they don’t have sex with a woman during her period, it just might be because these guys have actual respect for their wives, enough to leave them be during a messy, moody time of month. But if you’d actually read some of Sheila’s work, you might find out that a lot of these so-called “Christian men” feel they’re entitled to sex no matter how a woman is feeling. And I’m sorry, but a man not wanting to even touch a woman during her period because he thinks she’s “unclean” is disgusting. I thought you said the “old law” was broken?

          • FarmWife

            The old law has been broken, but women have always been unclean when bleeding. There is nothing in the NT regarding a woman as clean during her period.

          • Jo R

            Except that Christ fulfilled the law, which means we are no longer bound by it.

            Aside from the woman who hemorrhaged for twelve years, I can’t even think of a passage that talks about a woman’s period.

        • Anon

          “If I own something I can do anything I want with it (paint it, use it, wear it, etc).”

          Oh please, put the straw man back in the field where he belongs. This is faulty logic again. You can OWN a house or building; that doesn’t make it right to burn it down to collect on the insurance money. You can OWN a pet; that doesn’t make it right to kick it or starve it. And just because you claim a husband OWNS his wife’s body does NOT make it right for him to beat, rape, or emotionally abuse her.

          Reply
        • Jo R

          Perhaps you don’t realize that women have a specific body part whose only known function is to provide a woman with sexual pleasure? Was that a mistake on God’s part? Or do you suppose it means God intended for women to receive sexual pleasure from their husbands? Even if the activity required to stimulate HER doesn’t particular do much to stimulate HIM?

          You’ve completely skipped over the fact that the wife owns the husband’s body as much as he owns hers. That is, the wording in 1 Corinthians 7 gives the exact same rights to wives as it does to husbands. So do you have the right to direct your husband to stimulate you sexually, even if that stimulation doesn’t also stimulate him?

          By your own admission, you feel no sexual desire or pleasure. I’d call that an indictment of your husband, because he has most certainly not given you your conjugal rights, which is most explicitly part of the “new law.”

          Reply
          • FarmWife

            I never have had any interest in my conjugal rights. I also have no interest in my husband”s body. I find I am repulsed by the male body and by sex. Neither my Husband nor I ever got sex ed, just abstinence only education. We kissed for the first time at our wedding. Our relationship was only physical after her marriage.

          • Jo R

            I’d guess your husband is pretty interested in HIS conjugal rights, and that your church backs him up on that. I’m guessing that your church downplays a wife’s completely equal rights in that area. And if your husband does take his pleasure without providing you with pleasure, he is in direct violation of Scripture.

            While you may not have had any education before marriage, there are tons of resources available now, including right here on this website. Why would you be so completely against availing yourself of this gift that God has given to married couples?

          • Anon

            For that matter, why did you get married, if sex and the male body is so disgusting to you?

          • FarmWife

            God did not create men and woman equally (there is that feminism again). Husbands and wives do not have equal rights (we are equal heirs to the kingdom of Heaven). You may view sex as a gift, but I never have. Sex is a requirement of marriage.

          • Jo R

            How were Adam and Eve not equal? Before the fall, God told them—THEM—to be fruitful, to subdue the earth, to rule the creatures.

            Sounds pretty equal to me.

          • FarmWife

            Yes, Adam and Eve were equal until sin entered the picture. Genesis 3:16 states To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” Adam was to rule over Eve. It is just like how we no long are living in the garden of Eden. What God created was perfect. Eve sinned and for the wages of sin is death.

          • Jo R

            So you are taking a statement of CONSEQUENCES that God gave to EVE and turning it into a COMMAND given to ADAM?

            Try again. You are so wrong, and you don’t even begin to realize it. And if you do see even the slightest crack of daylight in how wrong you are on THIS matter, I (and everyone else here) can only pray you see just how wrong in so many of the other statements you’ve made.

          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            Adam ruling over Eve was not a punishment, and it was not what God wanted. Why do you want to create and fulfill something that is against God?

          • Anon

            Dear FarmWife, being repulsed by sex and by your husband’s body is not a sign of spirituality. God meant sex to be good for both husband and wife. I am so sad that you feel this way – and worse still, that you think it is good that you do feel this way. Like you, I was abstinent before marriage, but unlike you, I married a man who knew God meant sex to be good for both of us and who wanted to make sex enjoyable for me.

            Read Ephesians 5 – and NOT just the verse about wives submitting to husbands. Read the whole chapter. Including the command to husbands to love their wives ‘as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her’, and where it says that husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. Or what about Colossians 3 and 1 Peter 3 which both command husbands to be gentle/considerate/loving toward their wives. How do you think this matches up with a husband who doesn’t care if sex is unpleasant or even painful to his wife?

            There are many other passages in the Bible which talk about sex as being good for both spouses, but since you won’t accept anything earlier than Romans as having any relevance to today’s believers, I guess there is no point in talking about those. (Although I note that in MY Bible, it says that ‘all Scripture is profitable’, not ‘all Scripture after the end of Acts is profitable.’ Something to think about…)

          • FarmWife

            You may not view it as a sign of spirituality but I do. I have never thought lustfully about men. I view men as human being that are a headship not something to have sex with.
            If you read all of 1 Peter 3 wives are to be submissive, respectful, and with a gentle and quiet spirit. Colossians 3 calls wives to be submissive (again). As verse 5 reads Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. As a Christian I am to be dead to passion but have a passion filled marriage? Double standard?
            Also I never stated sex was painful. That was an assumption on your part. During sex I feel nothing physically.
            Regarding 2 Timothy 3:16, one must also read verse 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;. However this does not undermine the fact that there is a old law and a new law. The work Christ did on the cross stopped the old law. Before Christ’s death (and until the day of Pentecost, shortly after His death), there was no Holy Spirit. However many people had direct experiences with God and angels before Christs death. (Think the burning bush, receiving the 10 commandments, Daniel in the lion’s den, the angels appearing to Abraham and Sarah, to Mary and Joseph, etc.).

          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            Oh, FarmWife, if you’re feeling nothing physically, that’s not good! That’s actually something worth trying to figure out.

            Again, this doesn’t surprise me, because our research found that women with the kinds of beliefs you have are far more likely to not get aroused or reach orgasm.

            But have you ever thought that God designed you for more than this? That you were intended for more? That the fact that you can’t experience something that you were meant to experience is actually a sign that something is wrong, not right? Have you ever wondered why women who see the Bible in a more holistic way, where we live by the words of Jesus and see the Bible through the lens of the real Word of God, that we can experience sex and intimacy and passion more? Can you not see that this should point you to the fact that something is very, very wrong?

          • FarmWife

            I came to terms a long time ago that my body doesn’t function perfectly, but then again who’s does? I have never equated sex with intimacy. I have intimacy with God but don’t have sex with Him.

          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            Actually, your body does function well. there is no physical reason not to be able to orgasm. The fact that your body doesn’t function means there’s something wrong with what you’re believing and with your relationship. That’s really sad.

          • Jo R

            “I view men as human being that are a headship not something to have sex with.”

            Then frankly, you should not have gotten married.

          • FarmWife

            I do not know what sex was until after I was married. How am I suppose to know if I want or like something if I never had it before? That seems confusing to me. Assuming you never had sheep’s milk, do you like sheep’s milk? I committed to something that I did not know/understand what I was committing to (as far as sex). I do blame the church, my parents, and my private school for not having any sex ed. It wasn’t even brought up in premarital counseling.

          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            Oh, FarmWife, that’s so sad. I’m so sorry. You have every right to be upset and angry.

            The real question is: Are you going to continue to pay the price for their negligence, or are you going to claim what is yours? Are you going to enter the promised land, or are you going to be content with Egypt? Because it sounds very much like you are convincing yourself that living in Egypt is a-okay.

            You deserve more. But you will only get it when you realize God meant for you to have so much more. God meant for you to matter.

          • Jo R

            Wait a minute. If you’re blaming someone, or rather quite a few someones, for not teaching you properly about sex, what does that say about your own earlier statement: “I am simply teaching what I had simply been taught”?

            If YOU now think you had been taught something incorrectly, isn’t it just within the realm of possibility that YOU are now teaching something incorrectly yourself?

            I’m sure those who chose to not teach you properly about sex could just as easily say that they were simply teaching what they had been taught. So why do you blame them?

            And since you are blaming them, that kinda sounds like you think you might actually be missing out on something you’re actually supposed to have after all, meaning a mutually pleasurable sex life.

          • FarmWife

            From not being taught anything to raising all girls, I do not know what I am suppose to teach and what I am not. They have already asked some questions I can not answer. I feel as though I have done better than what I was given.

          • Anon

            I hope, at the very least, you will encourage your daughters to marry men who will consider their thoughts and feelings and value their opinions.

            And yes, that can happen even in a marriage where the wife submits to the husband and the husband makes all the decisions. Most of the folk I was raised around when I was young had marriages like this, but the husband would still always ask for his wife’s thoughts and opinions and take the into consideration when making a decision, and would care about her feelings.

          • FarmWife

            I will not interject myself into any of my daughters marriages (if they choose to). All of them have been taught and believe in the wife submitting to their husband. The church told me (not outright, but with certain phrases) that the most important thing was for me to marry and have kids (looking back now, it seems like I was viewed as breeding stock). I, however, have taught my girls what Paul said that it is best to be unmarried, but they can choose to marry, if they wish.

          • Anon

            I’m so sorry you were viewed as breeding stock – know that in Jesus’ eyes, you are so much more than that. You are a precious child of God, adopted into His family.

            And as I said before, it is possible to have a marriage where the wife submits to her husband but where the husband still values and respects and seeks the wife’s opinion, where he cares for her thoughts and feelings and wants to know about them. Teaching your daughters they should only marry a man who respects them, who values their opinions and cares for their thoughts is not teaching them to be unsubmissive. It is simply teaching them that if they ARE going to submit to a man, they should be careful who they choose to be that man.

            Yes, it is good to remain unmarried and God can bless and use unmarried women (and men), but in a church such as you describe, they are likely to come under great pressure to marry, so you also need to be giving them some guidance as to the kind of man it would be good to marry, if they choose to do so. Would you really want your daughters being told by their husbands that their thoughts and feelings don’t matter?

          • Jo R

            So you’re saying ANY kind of passion is wrong? That human beings are to go through life completely devoid of emotions? Can you not distinguish between God-honoring passions and God-dishonoring passions?

            Do you never enjoy the food you make? The cuteness of the animals, especially the baby animals, on your farm? A beautiful sunset? A stirring worship song at church? The splendor of the flowers of the field, which outshone even Solomon?

            Do women who enjoy sex, whose husbands know how to stimulate the clitoris, who feel passion for their husbands in and out of bed dishonor God? Does Song of Solomon not speak to the glory of sex in marriage?

            Your version of Christianity is not the least attractive to pre-believers, so you are actually damaging the gospel, which is what Paul was constantly pleading with believers to avoid doing.

          • FarmWife

            I believe our passions as Christians should be for God, Christ, Heaven, the Bible and such. As Paul wrote “For me to live is Christ and to die is but gain.” Also we are to set our minds on things above (not on worldly things). In our daily walk as Christians are minds are to be transformed, so we become more like Christ. Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be master by anything.
            As far as food, I stick to a strict diet. (I eat the same things everyday.) So I am not that excited about the food I cook for the family, that I don’t eat. Although a baby animal may be cute, I am not passionate about it. The animal is food and the babies happen yearly. Maybe you do not remember but babies are a lot of work. I get passionate about Christian and Heavenly thing (going to church, reading my Bible, praying, singing hymns, etc).

          • Jo R

            But you said before all passion was bad. You made no distinctions among passions at all, just quoted the Bible’s blanket condemnation of passion.

            So which is it? There actually ARE some acceptable passions after all???? Or are they indeed all bad and therefore sinful and not allowed?

          • Anon

            There is a world of difference between feeling sexual attraction for your husband and feeling lust for men in general. The word ‘passion’ is translated ‘sexual immorality’ or ‘fornication’ in most translations. If you believe that feeling attraction to your husband is wrong, just because feeling attraction toward other men would be wrong, then the logical extension is that sex with your husband is wrong because sex with other men would be wrong…

            I’m wondering if you are feeling a little threatened by some of the ideas you are reading here – you seem to be responding in a very extreme manner, saying that either a woman must feel no pleasure having sex with her husband OR she will lust after other men, or that EITHER a woman wears skirts 2 inches above the ankle OR she wears skin-tight shorts and tops with plunging necklines.

            Also, you say you have never felt pain during sex – well, that is great. But on the basis of your understanding of marriage, you would have no right not to have sex even if it left you screaming in agony.

            It doesn’t affect me what you do or don’t believe – but for your own sake, please spend some time thinking these things through.

          • Anon

            Sheila, I asked her to find me one Scripture that explicitly states marital rape doesn’t exist, and she couldn’t do it. I also directed her to this article, which uses several Scriptures to prove that marital rape is wrong and that sex is intended to be pleasurable for both, not to mention that submission is a MUTUAL thing: https://www.compellingtruth.org/spousal-marital-rape.html

          • Jo R

            I guess Aunt Matilda is just SOL.

          • FarmWife

            No it does not exist as I can not find it in the Bible anywhere! Can you find the words “marital rape” in the Bible?

          • Jo R

            Er, “ankle-length skirts” doesn’t appear in the Bible, either, you know.

          • Anon

            The word “pedophile” doesn’t appear anywhere in Scripture either – by your logic, am I to assume you think pedophilia doesn’t exist and that it’s perfectly fine for a grown adult to molest and rape children?

          • FarmWife

            What you are referring to would be fornication (since there is not a marriage) or adultery. This is obviously a sin. We must also remember a girl becomes a woman the day she gets her first period. (This WAS the qualification of a woman throughout the entire Bible.) In countries where women are married young (by western standards) I do not see a problem with it as long as she has had one period.

          • Jo R

            So in a comment on today’s blog post (the podcast on the Focus on the Family movie review that sexualizes menstruation), one woman said her daughter started menstruating at SIX. Is that child now ready to be married?

          • FarmWife

            Once a girl has a period she is a woman. She is capable of getting pregnant and is therefore biologically ready to be married.

          • Jo R

            So you endorse pedophilia and think laws regarding the age of consent for sex are just wrong?

          • FarmWife

            I do think the age needs to be lowered to about 14, but that is personal opinion. I have known a few couples who got married before 18 with parental consent and it worked out for them.

          • Anon

            So you think it’s perfectly fine for a grown man to molest and have sex with a CHILD whose body has not fully developed – and is consequently not physically ready to handle sex and childbirth – and who is not yet done being wired mentally.

            There is a good reason why the age of legal adulthood is 18 – that’s the age at which the body is just about done developing physically and, in a woman’s case, all of her bones and internal organs are now mature and strong enough to handle sex and the growth of a developing child.

            If you think just because a girl has her period, no matter the age – and PLEASE consider Jo’s example of a girl that started her period at 6 – it’s fine for a grown man to have sex with her, seek help at once. Pedophilia is child abuse, period.

          • FarmWife

            Personally I got my first period at 10 and truly believe I should have been married off by age 12. Plenty of woman under the age of 18 have carried a baby and gave birth with no problems. The brain does not fully develop until about age 25. Do you think we should move the marriage age up to 25?

          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            At age 12 it is impossible to have an intimate relationship with an adult man. That is abuse in every sense of the word. FarmWife, I’m honestly very worried for you and your daughters. Please hear me when I say that what you believe is not of God, and is actually dangerous.

            Please, for the sake of your daughters, consider talking to people outside your community. Go to a different church, or even better, see a licensed counselor and talk through these issues. This isn’t safe and it isn’t wise and you’re in danger of seriously hurting your daughters long term.

          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            one more thing regarding God and order: We do have order. We have the Holy Spirit. He is the one who guides us, and this was always the intention. Do you remember back in the Old Testament, when God set it up that He would lead them? And what did the people do? They rejected Him and said they wanted a king instead. They wanted regular earthly hierarchy, rather than having God lead them directly.

            What you are doing is the same thing. You are setting your husband up as king, rather than letting the Holy Spirit guide you, as is the intention for all believers. You don’t need your husband over you making decisions; the goal is that you each submit yourselves to the Holy Spirit, and He guides you, TOGETHER. What you are doing is going back to the Old Covenant, and rejecting what Jesus gave His life for. Please think and pray about this.

          • FarmWife

            What is the difference between two married teenagers (say a 13 year old girl and a 15 year old boy) having sex and two unmarried teenagers, the same age having sex? The only difference I find is the unmarried teenagers are fornicating and the married ones aren’t. Most teenagers today are having sex.

          • Anon

            Again, you are using extreme examples to justify your views.

            You can’t expect people who have no belief in God to live according to his rules. Yes, many teenagers are having sex. They’re also having sex with multiple partners, looking at porn, using drugs, getting drunk and doing many other things that are harming themselves and others. Talking about allowing 13 year old girls to marry because some 13 year old girls are having sex outside of marriage is like talking about legalising cocaine because some people take drugs anyway. The answer to someone doing something that is harmful is not to legalise it – the answer is to find ways of discouraging them from doing it in the first place!

            Besides, it is perfectly possible for CHRISTIAN young people to stay celibate into their 20s and even into their 30s and beyond. They do it because they believe it is what is pleasing to God and because they believe God can enable them to be self-controlled enough to save sex for marriage. You yourself have mentioned the Fruit of the Spirit – which includes SELF CONTROL. Yet at the same time, you are saying 13 year olds should marry so they don’t ‘fornicate’ – where is the self control in that?

          • FarmWife

            Yes, we are to have self control, obviously.
            What I was relating to was people saying that a female teenager’s body is not ready for sex or to carry a baby and I was simply pointing out that there are a lot of teenagers having sex (outside of marriage) and some do get pregnant and carry the baby. If teenagers fall in love, where in the Bible does it say they can not get married? I was never trying to imply it was right for a older man to marry a teenager! I was coming from a place of two people within a reasonable age of each other.

          • Anon

            Are you aware that a lot of those girls go on to have physical health problems from carrying a pregnancy to term so young? And many of those who do start having sex so young later regret that they did so? Kids do (or want to do) a lot of things when they are young, but it doesn’t mean that those who love them would allow it.

            There are many cultures today which allow girls to be married off as soon as they’ve had their first period. Do you know why so much effort is being made to outlaw these practices? It’s because of the detrimental impact it has on these young girls’ lives, and especially their bodies.

            Besides, you say that you were talking about kids of the same age getting married, but when the age of consent is lowered, it is lowered. The law wouldn’t say ‘a 12 year old can get married as long as her husband is 12 too’. It would just say she could get married. And think how easily a 12-year-old could be coerced into saying yes to a much older man. No, these laws are in place for a reason, to protect our young people.

          • Anon

            The above Anon is correct. Adolescent pregnancy frequently causes more harm than good, particularly physically, since the pelvic bone (which is crucial in supporting the weight of a developing baby) is not fully mature until age 18. The reproductive organs are also mature by this age, and the female genitalia are strong enough to support not only sexual activity but childbirth.

            As many people have stated repeatedly on this post, this reason among many is why the legal age of adulthood is 18. Please take the time to educate yourself on this. This is a guide on human development: https://byjus.com/biology/human-life-cycle/

            The physical effects of teen pregnancy: https://www.ourfamilyworld.com/fertility-and-pregnancy/16-and-pregnant/teenage-pregnancy-effects-on-mom-physical-effects-before-and-after-baby/

          • Jo R

            I think raising the age would be a lot better idea than lowering it.

            How can we expect children to handle the responsibilities of adulthood and marriage when they aren’t even adults yet?

          • FarmWife

            I got married at 18, had my first kid 11 months later and my second kid 12 months after the first. I think I handled it well because of having Christ in me. What is your definition of adult?

          • Anon

            How about someone whose internal organs and bones are fully developed (which, as we’ve already established, is not until you’re at least 18)? In teenage females, the bones, genitalia, and reproductive organs are still undergoing maturity, which is not completed until around 18 years old. This is not hard to grasp; it’s Biology 101.

            Please educate yourself on this. There is an excellent resource from BJU on human development and maturity: https://byjus.com/biology/human-life-cycle/

            And here is a great article that lays out, step by step, the reasons why 18 has been established as the legal age of adulthood and sexual maturity: https://m.timesofindia.com/life-style/health-fitness/photo-stories/this-is-the-ideal-age-to-have-sex-the-first-time/photostory/62469827.cms

          • Anon

            It depends what age JoR is talking about – in many countries, you can marry with parental permission before you are legally of age. In my country, you can marry at 16 with parental consent, but you are not an adult until 18. Besides, whether it’s 16 or 18 – you were saying that you thought girls were ready to marry as soon as they had their first period, which is a very different thing. Sometimes that happens at 6. I got mine at 12 and I hadn’t finished growing physically at that point.

          • FarmWife

            I got my first period days after turning 10 and think my body was easily ready to carry a baby by the time I was 14 or 15. I wear the same clothing today as I did my first day of high school and, yes, I still own, fit in to, and wear clothing I was wearing 20 years ago.

          • NG

            FarmWife, I got my period when I was 12, but in no way was I anything other than a preteen girl. Not emotionally or physically mature for such responsibility as child bearing!
            Just because child marriages are still allowed in some parts of the world, does not mean they are what God intends!

          • Anon

            THANK YOU. Thank God you actually use the common sense He gave you.

          • NG

            ‘Biologically’ is very different than emotionally & mentally… Yes, people have married young for thousands of years, mostly to ensure that families and clans get as much offspring as possible. Marriage was usually not a private choice, but for the families to decide. Girls, and often men, had nothing to say.
            Many women died young – as a result to childbirth complications… and that still happens, in countries where girls are married off very young.

          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            I can certainly find how sex is mutual and intimate, which means that marital rape isn’t even sex! And if it’s being forced or it’s one-sided, then 1 Corinthians 7 can’t be used against her, because SHE is already being deprived!

            And I read that you should treat others as you would want to be treated. And that we should be kind and gentle. And I see rape always punished.

            But here’s the thing, FarmWife. You are entitled to your beliefs, absolutely. But you need to know that there are different ways of interpreting the Bible, and Jesus tells us that we choose between the different ways by looking at the fruit. When women believe as you do, marital satisfaction plummets, sexual satsifaction plummets, and rates of sexual pain rise. You’ve already told us that you hate sex, so this is already evidence that what you are believing is bearing bad fruit.

            On the other hand, when you pursue a marriage that is mutual and intimate, and when you pursue a marriage that is a partnership where both matter and where emotional intimacy is stressed, people flourish.

            You may not mind if your life isn’t flourishing. But what do you want for your daughters? And if you teach other women to live as you do, then it’s very likely that they too will be denied the chance to understand how awesome God made true, passionate sex to be. It’s very likely they’ll be deprived of the chance to know real intimacy as God intended, on every level.

            You may not mind giving that up for yourself (which I find very sad), but I do believe that if you teach what you do, God will also hold you accountable for those that you hurt, once you know the truth.

          • FarmWife

            I don’t view sex as one sided. I willingly give my body to my husband. What you are saying is a wife does NOT need to submit to her husband regarding sex? I find that unbiblical. I do not feel as through I am being deprived. I am getting the emotional intimacy I need. My needs look different than most women’s. My husband and I spend 2 hours the other night, arms lifted and singing hymns together with our clothes on. This is the intimacy I crave and long for. This is real intimacy. It was an actual taste of Heaven. I would not have been ashamed or embarrassed if your daughters had walked in on us.
            Is there a Bible verse that says every single person who walks the earth will love sex? Sorry but I don’t see it. That is the equivalent of saying everyone’s favorite food is fried chicken or favorite color is teal or favorite song is Come Thou Fount. I know only one of those is true for me, the last one. Everyone is different. This is how God created us. What a boring world if everyone was the same. Somehow when it comes to sex God made everyone the same.
            My life is flourishing just not by worldly standards (We are called to be in the world not of the world). I do not remember great sex being one of the fruits of the spirit. I have the peace that surpasses all understanding and peace is one of the fruits of the spirit. I am simply teaching what I had simply been taught, that has had a huge impact on my life. I would not be where I am today if not for Christ.

          • Jo R

            Wearing a skirt or dress that’s within two inches of your ankle is subzero weather is not a fruit of the Spirit either, yet you sound like you’re glad to do that. Are you by any chance passionate about following that dress code, because you said in a different comment that passion is bad, right?

            God did not give you a clitoris by accident, and the fact that you ignore that gift—unlike most of the women here—does not make you a more spiritual Christian, whatever you’ve been led to believe. Some of us consider sex a good and perfect gift; it existed before the fall and was part of the creation that God Himself called “VERY good.”

            “My needs look different than most women’s.”

            Then why do you keep disputing with those whose needs are different, essentially calling us less spiritual because we dare to enjoy the blessings that God has given us?

          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            What I am saying is that you are not engaging in biblical sex.

            Biblically, sex is INTIMATE, MUTUAL, and PLEASURABLE FOR BOTH. What you are engaging in, by your own admission, is one-sided intercourse where your needs don’t matter. That’s wonderful that you enjoy other aspects of your relationship. It is. But you have a very anemic view of sex if you aren’t experiencing anything physically and think it’s just for him. That is not the way the Bible talks about sex. Sex is not an entitlement for men and an obligation for women, it is a passionate experience you enjoy together.

          • FarmWife

            I have never felt passion in regard to sex. What I am suppose to do? Be like the world and fake it until I make it…or be in the world and not of the world (as Christians are called?
            No one can come up with a single Bible verse guaranteeing that everyone (every single person on this planet) will enjoy sex. It is an assumption.
            I told my husband not long after we were married (maybe a month or two) that I was not into sex and did not feel anything. He realized I was there for his needs physically. I can’t change my body or make it feel something it can’t feel.

          • Jo R

            No, what you do is point out that the ever-popular 1 Corinthians 7 states quite clearly that wives have conjugal rights too, exactly the same as husbands.

            He’s been using your body for your whole marriage to make himself feel good. Now it’s time for him to use his body to you feel good. You might point out to him that you, as a woman, have a clitoris. With proper stimulation (which generally is nothing like the stimulation a man gets during PIV, manual stimulation, or oral stimulation), a woman can not only orgasm once, she can keep on orgasming, unlike a man, who is usually one and done.

            There are lots of resources right here on this website. And no, we don’t fake it. We tell the truth, and we expect our husbands to put in the work necessary to learn. It is his job, after all.

          • Been there, done that

            This is either a masterful troll job or quite sad. I hope it’s the first.

          • Anon

            If it’s real, it sounds an awful lot like the cult that Liz Hunter talks about in this video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ANocwZZntuE

            The cult she describes is a warped view of Christianity based on the (false) teachings of Bill Gothard.

          • Anon

            “I would not have been ashamed or embarrassed if your daughters had walked in on us.” Why on earth should you have been? None of us is saying there is anything remotely embarrassing about singing hymns. And for what it’s worth, I find times of worship with my husband to be wonderful too.

            And again, you are twisting the argument – we are not saying that everyone has to be the same, we are saying that there is nothing spiritual about despising a gift that God gave us to enjoy or in finding your husbands body repulsive.

          • FarmWife

            I was referring to the shame or embarrassment that would have occurred if they walked in on us having sex. I find spiritual things, like singing hymns, intimate but not shameful or embarrassing. I find sex is shameful and embarrassing.

          • Anon

            There is a difference between ‘private’ and ‘shameful’. Some things are not meant to be done in public, but that doesn’t mean they are shameful. Taking a bath on our front lawn in full view of the neighbours would be embarrassing but taking one in our bathroom would not be. The act of bathing itself is not shameful or embarrassing, it’s just something that is not meant to be done in front of others. Likewise, there is nothing shameful or embarrassing about sex, its just meant to be between you and your husband only.

            And remember, it was God who created sex – so when you call it ‘shameful’, you are saying that God created something shameful and requires married Christians to do something shameful…

            Look through your Bible – shame is ALWAYS the result of sin. Throughout the Bible, God’s people felt shame when they disobeyed Him – when they returned to Him, He took away their shame. Romans 10 says that anyone who trusts in the Lord will NEVER be put to shame – so if shame only comes on the heads of the disobedient, how can you claim that having sex is shameful?

          • FarmWife

            So you would feel no shame or embarrassment if your kids walked in on you showering, having sex, or going to the bathroom. You do not see shame or embarrassment in a woman giving birth in a room full of strangers? I gave birth at home and alone no one saw me or touched me. The day my kids were born was the only day my kids have seen me naked. I was taught the human body was not to be naked and that there is shame and embarrassment with the human body.

          • NG

            If someone enters a private space uninvited, and sees something not meant for their eyes… they are the ones who need to apologize. Why should I be ashamed if someone sees me having a shower or a bath? I am doing what I can to take care of the body God gave me, and if someone bursts into the bathroom, they better be sorry – not me.
            The same goes for entering a room where two people hav a private moment – the intruder needs to be ashamed, not the ones being interrupted..

          • Anon

            You seem to be deliberately misunderstanding me – is that because you are finding it too difficult to reconsider your beliefs?

            Yes, of course I would be embarrassed if a stranger walked in on me while I was bathing – but the shame would be theirs, for invading my privacy. Strangers are not meant to watch me bathing and they don’t need to.

            Giving birth in front of strangers? If you were able to give birth alone with absolutely no other person around, you were very fortunate. Many women need the help of a midwife at the very least. Look at your Bible – there are frequent references to midwives and other women assisting at births. Yes, some women might find it embarrassing to have a stranger with them during this time (though most are likely too occupied with giving birth to think about it) but there is no shame in having someone assist you in helping your baby to be born safely.

            And you’re still dodging the main question – you’ve said more than once that you believe sex is a requirement of marriage, something God says you must give to your husband whenever he wants it. Yet you’ve also said sex is shameful. IF those statements are both true, then God CREATED something shameful and is insisting YOU do something shameful. Please take some time to think about that – would God really ask you to do something shameful? Would God, our sinless, perfect Creator God, make something shameful be part of marriage?

          • FarmWife

            Genesis 3:7 says “Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves lion coverings.” Adam and Eve were the only people on the planet at this point and were obviously married, but they needed to have coverings. I would say they experienced shame and embarrassment. Why else would they cover up?
            I think we treat birth as an emergency in this country instead of as a natural process. People have been giving birth without help since the beginning of creation (Eve did not have a midwife). Also Exodus 1:19 says “The midwives said to Pharaoh “Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are vigorous and give birth before the midwife can get to them”.” Take into account 1 Tim. 2:8-15 (it is speaking of men and women in church, so Christians) verse 15 read “But women will be preserved through the bearing of children of they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.” Christian women are promised safety in childbirth with the verse. My first birth was horrible; however, my second, third, and fourth births were quick and pain free. If someone would have tried to help me during my birth, I would have locked myself into a room alone. The only person who has seen me naked since I have been out of diapers is my husband.
            I know a lot of people do not experience shame and embarrassment around sex and their body (based on how most people are not virgins when they get married); however, I do. So God has asked me to submit to my husband even though it is embarrassing and shameful for me. (Also, I am pretty sure if I had known what sex was before I was married, I never would have got married.)

          • Anon

            ‘Christian women are promised safety in childbirth’ – so are you saying that any woman who has died in childbirth or as a result of complications from birth was not a Christian? Yet you say you’re not judgemental… I know a lovely Christian woman who died giving birth to her 3rd child. And others who got rushed to hospital and would have died without help from others.

            You’re right the Hebrew midwives told Pharaoh the Hebrew women gave birth without them. But if you look at the previous verses, it says “The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live.” So obviously, they WERE called to help assist at the births – otherwise, they would have had no opportunity to ‘let the boys live’. because they wouldn’t even have known the births were happening. (And there are at least two examples of women dying in childbirth in the OT that I can think of – check out Genesis 35 and 1 Samuel 4 – so it didn’t always end well even in the Bible)

            And you’re still avoiding the main point: “So God has asked me to submit to my husband even though it is embarrassing and shameful for me.” Why would God ask you to do something ‘shameful’. Shame is ALWAYS associated with sin in the Bible, yet you are claiming that something God ASKS you to do is shameful…Don’t you see how ludicrous it is to claim that a perfect, Holy God would REQUIRE His children to do something shameful?!!

          • Anon

            The above Anon is absolutely right. God created sex – why would He create something shameful? Heck, there’s an entire book of the Bible dedicated to what intimate love and sexual pleasure between a husband and a wife should look like: the Song of Solomon. Let’s take a look at some highlights:

            “Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth! For your love is better than wine.” – Song of Solomon 1:2

            This is the bride talking about how delicious and loving her husband’s kisses are. His love is like wine to her – it’s intoxicating, heady, and gives her a rush of pleasure.

            “My beloved is radiant and ruddy, distinguished among ten thousand. His head is the finest gold; his locks are wavy, black as a raven. His eyes are like doves beside streams of water, bathed in milk, sitting beside a full pool. His cheeks are like beds of spices, mounds of sweet-smelling herbs.
            His lips are lilies, dripping liquid myrrh. His arms are rods of gold, set with jewels.
            His body is polished ivory, bedecked with sapphires. His legs are alabaster columns, set on bases of gold. His appearance is like Lebanon, choice as the cedars. His mouth is most sweet, and he is altogether desirable.
            This is my beloved and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.” – Song of Solomon 5:10-16

            The bride is not in the least repulsed by her husband’s body here. Quite the contrary – she’s mad with desire for him! She talks about how beautiful he his from head to toe, comparing parts of his body to precious jewels. And consider the last verse: “This is my beloved and this is my friend.” Not only is he her lover and the man who fell in romantic love (eros) with her, he is the man who first showed her friendship (phileos) and bonded with her on far more than just the physical. He is also the man who shows her unconditional love – agape love, meaning he is willing to put her needs before his.

            And, of course, we have the husband’s praise of his wife’s body:

            “How beautiful are your feet in sandals, O noble daughter!
            Your rounded thighs are like jewels, the work of a master hand. Your navel is a rounded bowl that never lacks mixed wine. Your belly is a heap of wheat, encircled with lilies. Your two breasts are like two fawns, twins of a gazelle. Your neck is like an ivory tower.
            Your eyes are pools in Heshbon, by the gate of Bath-rabbim. Your nose is like a tower of Lebanon, which looks toward Damascus. Your head crowns you like Carmel, and your flowing locks are like purple; a king is held captive in the tresses. How beautiful and pleasant you are, O loved one, with all your delights! Your stature is like a palm tree, and your breasts are like its clusters. I say I will climb the palm tree and lay hold of its fruit. Oh may your breasts be like clusters of the vine, and the scent of your breath like apples, and your mouth like the best wine.” – Song of Solomon 7:1-9

            The imagery here portrays the exact same thing as the wife’s: their love is intoxicating and delicious, and neither one of them see this as something shameful. They’re taking great delight in each other!

          • FarmWife

            Am I the only person incapable of reading the Song of Solomon? It is nauseating. I could not read all the scripture above because I would have lost my breakfast. Apparently some people like kissing, I do not. How am I suppose to change? How do you make yourself like something you hate?
            I love my husband as a brother in Christ. We were never friends. We met, courted and were married in under 6 months. Our church does not believe in dating (as it leads to fornication). I married him because our religious views lined up. Growing up, my husband never got to have female friends and I never got to have male friends. We were not allowed to play with the opposite sex. My husband makes sure the family’s needs are always met. We have never gone without shelter, clothing, or food.

          • JoB

            God’s word is never “nauseating.” God never contradicts himself, and he doesn’t call a bad thing good, or vice versa.

            Logically, you must at least consider the possibility that your dilemma has its origin in the way you were brought up. You can question teachings or practices or traditions, and that doesn’t mean that you are rejecting God. Lots of people asked God questions throughout the Bible.

          • Anon

            JoB, you read my mind. God never would have allowed the Song of Solomon to be included in the canon of Scripture if it was shameful or sinful. He Himself meant this book as a celebration of married love and – yes, I am going to say it – hot sex between a husband and wife. It’s portrayed as something beautiful, something to be enjoyed and reveled in.

          • FarmWife

            I have never viewed sex as beautiful. I find it gross and disgusting. I have never enjoyed it. It just seems to be something I cannot get my mind around. I do not understand how someone can be into sex and Godly at the same time. If your mind is set on things above, you are not thinking about sex. It seems conflicting to me. Romans 8:13 says “for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.” 1 Peter 2:11 states “Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from passions of the flesh, which rage war against your soul.” It seems to be God doesn’t want our mind on sex and the flesh, but on holiness and righteousness.

          • FarmWife

            I was not saying women who die in childbirth cannot be Christians. Somethings are hard to know and understand while we are here on this earth. Sometimes God will call a woman home (to Heaven) when she gives birth. Personally I would rather die giving birth than have a stranger see me naked and I definitely would not want someone touching me. In fact if you have a male doctor, you are committing adultery. You have a man who is not your husband touching and seeing any area that is for your husband only!
            I am not saying it is wrong to have a midwife. I was simply point out that women have been giving birth without any help since creation. We were designed and created to give birth. Woman should have the option to have a midwife or to have an unassisted birth.
            Yes, God has asked me to do something shameful. I feel as though my back is against the wall and you are trying to corner me. I either have to submit to my husband and do something shameful or not submit to my husband and live in sin. I do not want to live in sin.

          • NG

            Goodness, FarmWife, I am seriously concerned now. Would you rather have your daughter die than have a male doctor save her life?
            Is this the image you have about your Heavenly Father?
            If your church teaches that having a doctor of the opposite sex to examine and help you, they are guilty of criminal negligence.

            Don’t you remember what Jesus said about religious rules concerning Shabbath..
            ‘Man was not made for Shabbath, but Shabbath for the man’.. aka, for our benefit.
            His strongest rebuke was for those Pharisees, who endorsed strict rules, but did not care for the most essential law, mercy and compassion ..

            God’s primary focus has been saving lives, for grace, mercy and love. I see no love in teachings that rather allow a person to die than have medical help if it comes from someone not deemed suitable.

            Please, seriously consider re-your belief system.
            There is help available.

          • NG

            ‘If your church teaches that having a doctor of the opposite sex to examine and help you is wrong, they are guilty of criminal negligence.’
            That’s what I meant to say.

          • Anon

            FarmWife, let me ask you a question. Are your church’s teachings at all related to the teachings of Bill Gothard?

          • FarmWife

            Not long after we got married I went to the doctor due to an allergy, and this female doctor just keep asking to examine me and wanted to get up my dress. I verbally told her no 5 or 6 times before my husband stood up, told her I don’t expose myself to anyone and told me to walk out. That was the last time I went to a doctor.
            Our church does not say a woman cannot have a male doctor; however, I would say about 90% of the babies born in our church are born at home either unassisted, the husband delivers, or a female midwife delivers (notice there is no such thing as a midhusband). I, personally, would not let any male except my husband touch me. Most of the people at our church do not use a lot of medical people. We (as a church) do a lot of natural, homeopathic type remedies. When someone gets sick or injured in the church my husband and I tend to be some of the first people called on to give advise. We do not always have all the answers and we get advise from others within our church.
            I have no idea who Bill Gothard is.

          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            FarmWife, you are putting your babies in danger, and this is not of God. I’m very concerned about so much of your comment, but I’m especially concerned about this. Let’s consider everything that you have told us that you believe God thinks:

            It’s good for women to not have their own opinions and feelings, because their husband is the only one whose opinions matter
            It’s good for girls to marry and bear children before their bodies are ready for it and before they have finished maturing
            It’s good to not get medical help, even though we are in the most blessed generation in the world where people have studied the truths of the human body as God made it, and made discoveries about it, and now can help so much. It’s holier to not have that help that God has provided, even if it puts our babies at risk.
            It’s good for women to only wear skirts, and when strangers come into our church, they will be told at the second visit that God does not welcome them in church if they don’t conform in outward appearance (despite everything that God says in the Bible about welcoming people to Him)
            Sex is disgusting, even though God made it and gave women the capacity for deep passion
            Passion is bad and disgusting
            Nakedness is bad and shameful
            You were hurt by your female relatives growing up since they never told you what sex was, and you have never enjoyed it and hate this part of your life
            And yet you aren’t teaching your daughters any differently
            You never really knew your husband before you married him and you’ve never been attracted to him or even friends with him

            Can you perhaps ask yourself if that list of things looks ANYTHING like the Jesus who loves us, who wants us to live with abundant life, who wants us to be passionate, who came so that we could be set free?

            Can you see how that list of things makes it clear that where you are living, they are controlling women?

            Can you see how, if you keep at this, you put your children at great risk?

            Do you think maybe the reason you are on this blog is so that God can get a hold of you and show you that you do not have to live under this kind of bondage? If you’re feeling doubts, lean into them. Pray that God will show you the truth. You don’t need to live this way.

          • FarmWife

            I feel as though you have taken what I have said and twisted things.I never said that it is good for a woman to not have thoughts, feeling and opinions. What I said is this is one of the many ways I Biblically submit to my husband. I never said it was good to not get medical care, but that people should have the option to choose what medical care they get. I cannot find a single Bible verse saying it is bad for a woman to only wear skirts and dresses. I personally do not understand why a woman would want to wear pants and show off her body.
            No one yet has shown me a Bible verse saying every single person on the planet will enjoy and like sex. Passion outside of the Bible and Biblical things is not good as it is idolatry.
            I am teaching my daughters differently. They knew they will still hold value even if they never marry. Also once they get engaged I will set them down and talk to them about sex. This way they can still back out of the engagement if they so choose. Also please don’t refer to my daughters as babies. Babies wear diapers and live off milk. I have preteens and teens. I refer to all of them as Godly women.
            My husband has repeatedly told me “We are not friends, we are husband and wife.” I have never been attracted to my husband, but have also never been attracted to anybody else. There are arranged marriages, even in bible days. These people were not always friends or attracted to each other.
            Why do you think that submitting to a husband is controlling? When you became a Christian, did you allow God to do what He wanted to do with you and your life? Do you submit to God? You seem to have a problem with submission and authority. If God wants you to submit to your husband, are you willing?
            I am definitely not having any doubts. This has actually strengthened my faith. James 1:2 says “Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.” I know what I believe and do not question or doubt it. I stand firm in my belief in God and the Bible.
            I stand firmly by my husband. He has provided and protected me from a lot. Me submitting to my husband has protected me in the past, and I truly feel blessed by submitting to him. I can feel the Holy Spirit calling me in continuing to submit to my husband.

          • Anon

            Part of the problem is in your first two words: “I feel.” You seem to be operating largely on feelings and not on logic and rational thought. There’s nothing wrong with having strong feelings, but you can’t let them rule your every thought, decision, and belief, or you’re going to end up seriously confused and misled. You need logic, rationality, and common sense to balance out the emotions. Please, take what Sheila and many others on here have shared with you and apply some logic and common sense to it. You might end up pleasantly surprised.

          • FarmWife

            I am not ran or controlled by my feelings are emotions. When was the last time you hand raised an animal then slaughtered it and called it dinner? Just last week we had to cull an animals out of the herd due to illness. I probably have more logic, rational and common sense than most people. I let my beliefs (the Bible, God, the Holy Spirit, etc.) dictate how I live my life. My decisions are based on my Christian beliefs, not on my feelings.

            I used the word “feel” simply because I did not want to accuse someone. You seem to think I run off my feelings; however, I honestly can not remember the last time I cried. (I want to say it was 3 years ago at my Grandma’s funeral…but I can not remember if I cried then.) As my husband says “Crying doesn’t solve anything.”

          • Anon

            Has he told you that during moments when you were genuinely sad – and I don’t mean for no reason; I mean in gut-wrenching anguish, such as the death of a loved one? If he has, and it’s gotten to the point where you no longer feel much of anything, that’s not good at all. That’s emotional abuse – beating the spirit down until there’s no true feeling left… except, of course, what the abuser WANTS you to feel.

          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            “Jesus wept.” John 11:35.

            Again, the things that your husband is saying, and that you are saying, are not based in Jesus.

          • FarmWife

            How exactly does crying solve anything? Crying does not heal a broken bone, bring a dead person back to life, or even make you feel better. My husband is 100% correct in his statement. John 11:35 was a one time thing. Jesus did not go around crying over things. Jesus wasn’t crying when he cast demons out, raise the dead, or healed the sick. He stood firm in His beliefs and His Father. Yes, I have cried but it is extremely rare.
            How are the things I am saying not of Jesus when I can backing up my beliefs in Scripture? People on here keep pointing out things that are worldly and are not of God.

          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            Jesus also wept over Jerusalem. He actually cried quite a bit.
            If crying isn’t of God–why does God do it?

          • FarmWife

            I never stated crying was not of God; I stated and believe crying doesn’t solve anything. If an animal is sick or injured I can cry over and let it stay in misery or I can put it out of its misery. Which one is solving a problem? I was being accused of being emotional, which I am not emotional, especially compared to most women. I never stated it was a sin to cry.

          • Anon

            No one said you were stating that crying is a sin, and we’re not saying you should burst into tears at the least little thing. What we’re pointing out is that it’s not emotionally healthy to hold it in when you do have a time of deep sorrow. It’s true that tears won’t bring back the dead, but God gave us the capacity to grieve their loss, which includes weeping for them. It never does anyone any good to suppress grief; it might manifest itself in an unhealthy way if it’s not properly expressed.

          • FarmWife

            I am not suppressing grief. I lack an urge to cry I guess. When someone dies, I get sad for awhile. I don’t tend to cry even at funerals. but I normally go through a time of sadness.

          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            FarmWife, that’s actually a sign of trauma. That means that you have been severely hurt in the past, were unable to properly attach, and are actually lacking a lot of emotional health.

            Our GOD cries. He made us to cry. If you can’t cry, and if your husband tells you not to, that is not emotionally healthy.

            And it is not the Bible that is telling you to cry. You really, really sound like someone in a classic abusive situation who has turned off such a large part of her emotions and her brain in order to just function. So you can’t cry. You hate passion. You find the idea of sex disgusting.

            Just ask yourself: Does this sound like a healthy, well-rounded person?

          • FarmWife

            The only trauma I experienced was giving birth and I have never been abused. I was the kid that almost never cried. I was just born this way.

          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            Trauma can just be emotional neglect. If your parents didn’t tell you about sex, and married you off to a man you didn’t know, it’s quite likely you have attachment issues with your parents which meant you never properly bonded, which is likely also why you can’t cry. You never got the love you were supposed to have. I’m so sorry. And this is also why you can’t see that what you’re describing in your marriage is so terribly unhealthy and strange.

            I just pray that you will see that something isn’t right and get help so that you don’t pass this on to your daughters.

          • Sheila Wray Gregoire

            If it doesn’t solve anything, and if it’s not a good thing to do, then why did God do it? And why did God make us to cry? And why, after crying, do we have a hormonal/emotional response that lessens our negative feelings?

          • FarmWife

            About the only time I cry (if you will), is when I am cutting an onion. Is that not a normal biological affect? Yes, God allows that to happen. Also I have personally experienced when you get a foreign object in your eye, you will also cry. This is God’s way of allowing the foreign object to be naturally removed. So maybe God created crying as a way to protect our vision.
            However after crying I have never experienced a hormonal/emotional response. I always feel it was a waste of time.

          • Anon

            “People on here keep pointing out things that are worldly and are not of God.”

            Such as?

          • FarmWife

            Wives do not need to submit to their husbands. You can be feminist and Christian. That sex will feel good for every single person on the planet. These are the types of things I am talking about. Also rape and abuse (regarding spouses) are never mentioned in the Bible.

          • Anon

            Let me guess. You also think that women should not work outside the home once they’re married and that married women shouldn’t be handling finances. I’m also going to go out on a limb and guess you think that, since your belief system says your husband owns you, he also owns your daughters. Have I called it?

            And Sheila and the rest of us are not trying to twist your words. We’re trying to make you think outside the box you’ve padlocked yourself into, and to see that much of what you’ve been espousing here is not only built on extremely flawed logic, but is downright dangerous to yourself and your girls. Have you stopped to consider that maybe God is trying to get you to wake up before it’s too late?

          • FarmWife

            Woman can work outside the home, if they are working for their husband. I know some women who handle finances, but my husband does that for the household. Of course all daughters are owned by their earthly fathers until they get married. Have you ever been to a wedding? The father gives his daughter away to the husband. This has occurred at every wedding I have been to. If the father does not own the daughter, then why is he giving her away?

          • Jo R

            Because historically, because men could impose their will via their physical strength, daughters were property.

            It’s really quite frightening to see someone who seems so well-spoken who is also hell-bent on perpetrating the worst of cultural traits through the millennia, especially when God explicitly made it clear He’s intent on freeing people from sin and its effects in all its imprisoning manifestations.

            Women are not an afterthought. Women aren’t second class. Women bear God’s image, and to deliberately diminish them in these ways is not just heartbreaking. It’s WRONG, pure and simple.

          • Anon

            Maybe because the tradition has evolved beyond the antiquated “transfer of property” that it used to be and has been redeemed as a father’s blessing upon the couple’s union? Once seen as a transaction where the father paid the groom to marry his daughter (the “bride-price” or dowry, which only reduced a woman to an object to be purchased and used, not a person to be loved and cherished), now this has been made new into the father’s sign of trust in the groom – that he knows his little girl will be loved. Not to mention there’s long been the response “her mother and I do” to the question of who gives the bride to be married.
            https://www.weddingandpartynetwork.com/blog/wedding-traditions/why-give-the-bride-away/

            I highly doubt that when Sheila and Keith’s daughters got married, Keith was considering the ceremony as a trade in property. And I REALLY don’t think he ever thought he OWNED either of their girls.

            Out of curiosity, is this how your father treated you? As an object to be given away, not a precious person to be loved for who you were?

          • Jo R

            Well, since he’s relying on Wayne Grudem for what the Greek word kephale means, it’s absolutely no wonder at all that that pastor, and you, and presumably everyone else in your church believes the things you’ve said here.

            But the problem is that Grudem is just FLAT-OUT WRONG about what kephale means. Period. End of statement.

            In addition, hupotasso doesn’t have the same force in a non-military context as it does in a military one. In the civilian world, it is about cooperation, not hierarchy or rank.

            We, meaning twenty-first century English-speaking people, simply CANNOT start with what the English seems to say. We have to understand the original languages and the cultures they were written in, or we just get way off.

          • Emmy

            The Bible DOES admonish men to not treat their wives harshly. Forcing someone to have sex is harsh.

  16. Becky

    Have you run the numbers on the percentage of Christian women who prefer to date secular men because of these reasons? And I second the request to find out what percentage of secular men are “sexually safe.”

    Reply
    • Rebecca Bourne

      I don’t agree with the idea that secular men are going to be “safer”. There is so much aweful sexist stuff happening in schools and universities (male students “ranking” female students attractiveness, teen boys pressuring their female classmates to send them nudes, etc). It’s an epidemic.
      How are these boys and young men supposed to grow up to be good husbands?

      Reply
      • Sheila Wray Gregoire

        The difference is that those same schools and universities are explicitly teaching consent BIG TIME and have policies where staff will be fired if they have any sexual relationship with kids.

        In church, youth pastors often aren’t fired for “affairs” with kids (it’s actually abuse). And instead of teaching consent, we teach modesty and that boys will push your sexual boundaries (we have lots of evidence of this from our mother-daughter survey; kids who went to public high schools were the most informed about consent and date rape).

        Reply
    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      I haven’t, no. I could do a quick Instagram poll (I think I will!) but it wouldn’t be at all representative. I may one day tackle it but it’s farther down my priority list. I have to do the matched pair marriage survey first!

      Reply
  17. Angela

    I’m actually kinda encouraged. 33% are safe! This is higher than I expected after reading all your stuff about evangelical messaging.

    Reply
    • Phil

      Angela – it is getting late and I just read your comment and had to re-read cuz I thought you were saying you were encouraged 33% LOL. All these numbers flying around here Joanna has to be in heaven!

      Reply
  18. RJ

    Sex is an entitlement and an obligation for men and WOMEN who are married to each other.

    Reply
    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      RJ, actually, a sexual relationship that is MUTUAL, INTIMATE, and PLEASURABLE FOR BOTH is an important part of a healthy marriage, as Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 7, and as the rest of Scripture says about sex. No one is entitled to one-sided intercourse.

      Reply
  19. NG

    I remember a few years ago reading a testimony from a husband/wife team. They had been in the world, and by all standards, had a great marriage.
    Everything was geared towards maximal pleasure, they had toys, films, all the right moves… they kbew how to have great orgasms.

    Then – they met Jesus. Really got to know Him, the depth of His love for them, and realized what utter foolishness their sex centered relationship had been.. nothing could compete with His joy. They learned to focus on love instead of selfish pleasure seeking..

    I wish those porn addicted, entitled conservative men would really meet Him and get to know Him as the Living Resurrected Savior. That would expose the depravity of their selfishness.
    That testimony always comes to mund, when I hear of married Christians struggling in their sex lives and hoping to have something more adventurous.. you can have all the adventures, and still be empty..

    Reply
  20. Sparkle

    Is watching videos of he and I together consider porn and does it have the same affect as regular porn? I feel like me and my husband have made progress but after 16 going years together and 14 years married I wonder if our sexual issues will eventually destroy us. Obligation sex has been a huge problem in our marriage that only got worse over the years because of church messaging in connection with my chronic illnesses. If he had his way we would have sex twice a day. I couldn’t manage that if I wanted to. I was working hard to not go more then two days even with my pain and it was killing me. We hit a wall that almost broke us a couple of years ago when I’d had enough and a few times since. He can’t seem to let go of the obligation message and objectification is a huge issue. And it’s really hard for me to keep my boundaries or even know the truth from the lies in the mist of being presued with the effect of childhood sexual abuse chasing me down. We listened up through the first half chapter 9 of the great sex rescue together. Getting that far was hard on me because our sex is great I usually orgasm and he is very patient and gentle during sex so I think he felt really affirmed by that which only put the pressure on for me. When we got to the duty chapter he didn’t seem as checked in and I just stopped asked him to listen. I can’t pretend things haven’t gotten better between us in the last couple of years, they certainly have. The anger he used to display at my no has gone away and the pressure is not a bad as it used to be. But Im still struggling not to have sex out of duty, none sexual touch is difficult I jump at his touch never knowing his intentions and when I don’t say no it usually progress from a cuddle, I still have to repeatedly say no and explain myself, he still pulls away from me when I say no he can’t just lay there and hold me or cuddle on the couch with out putting his hands between my legs or on my breast. His engagement with me is either sexual, pre sexual or their is space between us and that’s really hard on me emotionally. I know he’s not safe but I don’t know what else to do.

    Reply
    • Sparkle

      Please Help!!! I’m tired and drowning, he and I just got into it again this morning after I said no although we just had sex last night. It’s all to much.

      Reply
      • Sheila Wray Gregoire

        Sparkle, you’re allowed to say no! If he does not accept your no, that is abuse and that is unsafe. Why not call a domestic violence hotline (you can google one in your state/province/country) and talk with them about it? Or else look for a licensed counselor in your area and make an appointment to talk about this and how to draw boundaries. You can also follow Sarah McDugal on Facebook, or Leslie Vernick on Facebook. Those are very good communities that may help you figure out what’s going on with your marriage. I’m so sorry you’re going through this!

        Reply
        • Sparkle

          Thanks looking up those ladies now

          Reply
          • Sparkle

            I have been talking to a counselor for a while about this I’ve listened to the podcast and read the books about abuse but I struggle because in every other way he’s a good guy he only checks the box when it comes to how his sexual addiction affects me and that’s the part he won’t face head on. I’m some how supposed to be the answer to that problem.

          • Nessie

            Sparkle,
            I’m no professional nor have I gone through what you have so take this with a grain of salt, but if you jump at his touch, that is unhealthy. Yes, he may be a good guy in other aspects, but if you have past trauma as well as pain from your chronic illnesses that affect your sexual relationship and he is still disrespecting your “no”, then he is not loving you as he should and you need help.

            If a guy was great at taking care of you, talked with you, was a good dad/husband in all other ways except that he punched you sometimes, do you feel that would be ok? Probably not. It’s hard to step into the paradigm shift of realizing abuse covers more areas than simply physical, but it does. Sometimes I think the scars of other types of abuse run deeper because they can’t be seen by others.

            What licensing/background does your counselor hold? If s/he isn’t helping you walk through this a bit better, it’s possible you may need to try someone that has a higher level of training, and/or has dealt with sexual addiction and sexual abuse/trauma, etc. Or your counselor may be fine and you just have to implement/enforce your boundaries. That can be hard and feel selfish, mean, and unloving at first, but it really isn’t.

            Sheila gave you great resources to use. If you find boundaries difficult, I’d also suggest reading Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend. Praying for you now.

          • Nessie

            Sparkle,
            Another resource possibility: a commenter named Evelyn shared this about 4 days ago up on this post, but since this has been such a busy comment section, thought I’d reshare it here:

            Micahel and Christine Leahy’s ministry, Bravehearts University, has been a huge help to me. They have messages and support groups for the male sex addict and the female betrayed spouse.
            https://www.braveheartsuniversity.com/

  21. Jo R

    Wow, Sheila, the comments by Depressed Dad and FarmWife make an excellent case study in how the popular “Christian” marriage books play out in real life.

    The man thinks marriage revolves around his penis, and the woman thinks she’s not allowed to use the brain God put in her head.

    I hope the single folks, both male and female, know that marriage is more than what those two people have described.

    Reply
    • Anon

      You’ve pretty much described the plot of “Fifty Shades of Grey,” Jo.

      Reply
      • Anon this time

        I’ve never read or seen 50 shades but I have read/heard that they go over a contract or something to agree ahead of time what is or is not allowed/consented. Unless I am missing something, like that being violated (entirely possible since I haven’t read/seen it!), then the 50 shades relationship actually comes across as safer than what Jo R described.

        Reply
    • NG

      Honestly, FarmWife sounded more and more like a troll.
      Hope I’m wrong..
      Then, someone sincerely having that kind of a belief system is very sad.

      Reply
  22. NG

    A question to the mods team: how can I contact you? (Sorry, I wasn’t able to find that info) 🙂

    Reply
    • Nessie

      I, too, tried asking something using the Contact>Ask Sheila a Question, but only the subject and message fields were able to be filled out, not the name or email fields.

      Reply
      • NG

        Yup, I didn’t mean to send a question to Sheila, rather the mod team here about a technical issue (the site gives a message telling us to contact them, if we want to change anything on our comments, but I don’t know how that’s possible)

        Reply
        • Sheila Wray Gregoire

          Yes, we’re in the middle of moving the entire site over to a new server, and some things are breaking in the process, and rather than fixing them (which would take time) we’re putting that time into getting the new site up and running. If we kept trying to fix everything that was broken here, we’d never get the new site up. So things may be glitchy for the next little while until everything is moved unfortunately!

          Reply
          • NG

            Happy transfer!

  23. Mara R

    Depressed Dad: “Spare me the holier than thou art speech.”

    Wow. Really?
    Encouraging a man to see women as human beings rather than sex objects falls under the ‘holier than thou?’ category?

    Saying that God calls Christian men to be better than wild animals who pant after women as though these women are also animals and in heat. Who can’t seem to help themselves to keep from chasing, or at the very least, leering at tail.

    This is really a sad state of affairs, that a man who claims to be Christian can blame women for his own lust when Jesus very specifically told men that it was up to them to not lust. He told them if they can’t help but stare after and lust after a woman, they should pluck out their own eyes.

    No where does Jesus tell lustful men that they need to harangue and shame women for how they dress.
    No where.

    People calling you out on your lust problem and your dishonoring women problem are not giving you holier than thou speeches. They are calling you out of the darkness you are fumbling around in. They are calling you into the light of Jesus.
    There is help for you.
    But it’s going to be really hard for you to find it if you all you can do keep blaming everyone else for your issue.

    Reply
  24. Heather

    Is this 33% reported by the husbands or the wives?
    The ex would have (falsely) claimed that he was safe, but the truth is that he was horrifically sexually abusive to me. (In addition to the frequent affairs he had but denied)
    I suspect that unless it’s the wives answering this survey, that the number of safe men is greatly inflated. (Abusers, “christians” who use porn, cheaters etc are known to LIE, so a survey of them won’t have truthful results)

    Reply
    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      We didn’t ask them if they were safe; we asked them those four questions (among others). And, yes, this is as reported by the husbands.

      Reply
  25. Mike Jacoubowsky

    Sex is part of an obligation to each other, unless agreed upon beforehand. A man, or woman, is not wrong to consider there’s a lack of intimacy in their marriage, and in some cases, that marriage might not continue if not addressed. Does it become “obligation sex” by definition, because without it, they would divorce?

    The “obligation sex” thing isn’t so simple. It can be too-easily used as reinforcement for rejection of intimacy in general. We could talk about the “objectification” of men because some see them as being the required financial provider in the family, among various other rolls. But somehow holding a guy to that standard, or anyone to ANY standard, doesn’t carry the same weight as intimacy in the bedroom.

    There are absolutely 100% legit issues with men who believe that their wives are there to provide sex on demand, and suggest that, if it’s not provided, they might find it elsewhere. But let’s consider that the focus on “obligation sex” might be casting a net too wide.

    Reply
  26. William

    Sheila, Rebecca, and Joanna, thank you so much for your work pointing out how the Church has failed in this area. I’m a single Christian man and I’m working to become one of the 33.7%. Women deserve better than the sexual failures of men like me. I hope to have the privilege of loving, honoring, and serving a woman in marriage one day.

    I have two questions: (1) What are the lustful options in the potentially lustful situations that were referenced in #2? (2) Do you have any resources, ideas, or recommendations for me as a single man as I work to become sexually safe? (I’ve purchased and read The Great Sex Rescue and I’m so grateful for it!)

    Reply
  27. Not yet safe guy

    I’ve just admitted my porn issues to my wife. I hate that I had ever sinned this way, but it was you abd this website/blog that finally helped me understand how this all works and that I can heal bd in time so can my wife.

    I want to thankyou and hopefully one day I will be saying how great the “31 days to great sex” book is!

    Reply
  28. Anonymous

    I want to add one thought that occurred to me when reading the title of this post: the men you are talking about here are not just sexually unsafe HUSBANDS. But they are generally (sexually) unsafe PEOPLE in regards to those women they are not married to, as well!

    I’ve had this thought due to something developing in my private life with a family member I see on a more or less regular basis and who is displaying more and more signs of wrong sexual attitudes towards me (and most probably also towards other women when I’m not there), while having been married half his life and his wife being right there next to us. Admittedly, it is very subtle and maybe no one else in that setting catches it. But it is also too obvious for me not to notice. It has definitely come about only recently (the first signs dating back maybe 3,5 years), but has gotten worse quickly. I know for sure that porn and it’s easy availability thanks to modern technology has a part in it.

    And just for context: we are neither North American, nor evangelical, and in our subgroup of “old-fashioned” 20th century, “respectable” middle-class people, porn is a non-issue, highly frowned upon as a disgraceful subject for everyone (no “locker room attitudes” among males here…) and something you are expected to stay away from, religious or not, because it is just common sense to do so in your position in life (so no shame filled lecturing about it, either).

    What I can’t understand though: this is a grown man, a grandfather even, a pillar of the church, studies his bible and related literature all the time – and still, upon his old days, he falls into the trap of porn and falls this hard?!
    I do remember anecdotes from my childhood (1980/90s) that showed that there were issues even back then. I can’t say anything about the extent, since this was between the adults of the family. Now I think, according to your criteria he has not been a safe husband back then, either.

    Today that I’m an adult I get VERY upset about it, though, as this kind of ATTITUDE and BEHAVIOUR hurts a whole number of women: his wife, his female relatives / acquaintances, random women he encounters in his daily life, and not least the women displayed in the dirty stuff he is PURPOSEFULLY filling his mind with! It is definitely NOT safe nor comfortable for a woman to get close to a man like this!

    Reply
    • Anonymous

      And to comment on one specific point of the discussion with FarmWife above: her explanations illustrate as well how such attitudes in men make many women, beyond the actual wife, unsafe in a family context: supposedly (and it is not unlikely given what else we heard from her!), her husband makes sure by example and approval and other forms of influence that his daughters end up with a copy of himself as future husbands, the sad story will only continue into the next generation…

      Reply
      • Anon

        Based on what I’ve read on here so far, it really sounds like the guy is a classic narcissist: only his feelings and opinions matter, no one questions his authority, he’s been given “divine right” to rule the house, he owns everyone and everything in the house, etc. So it makes perfect sense he would want the girls to marry someone just like “dear old Dad.” 🤮

        Reply
  29. Michelle

    How do we arrive at the data, without it being skewed by dishonest answers, since many men wouldn’t admit to these things? Especially porn use.

    Reply
    • Sheila Wray Gregoire

      Multiple studies have actually shown that people admit to just about anything on anonymous surveys. Also, we found a big dose response effect–meaning that the more porn a man admitted using, the more it hurt other aspects of his life. If large numbers of men were lying, we wouldn’t have found this effect.

      Reply

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